Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
What stress? Seriously when have we ever been stressed because we were part of the order? When have they ever pushed us into doing something or not doing something for that matter?

From what experiance are you getting the notion that being part of the order is stressful to its members?
Seemingly spontaneously developing an entirely new field of responsibilities that will maim and kill if you so much as screw up a syllable, on top of meeting Wilhemina's standards seems pretty stressful to me. Two education tracks at once looks like a bad time.
 
That would be a lot more relevant if Mathilde wasn't the richest wizard in K8Ps by a good margin. I mean, she's got a small fief, and very profitable business (the niter factory), and then there's the EIC. The first is enough to make her quite well off (50 gold/turn, which is roughly what a dwarf grandmaster makes (and she was also getting a grandmaster wage loremaster)), the second makes her quite wealthy (I recall it was 100/turn, but I didn't find it in the info threadmarks), and the third is yet again more (175/turn), before it's even gotten into the really profitable parts of it's business.

Honestly, I expect money will get dropped before too long, because she has enough that anything below "hire army" or "build town" doesn't impact her finances.
I wasn't really arguing anything, he asked for an example and that was it.
 
Seemingly spontaneously developing an entirely new field of responsibilities that will maim and kill if you so much as screw up a syllable, on top of meeting Wilhemina's standards seems pretty stressful to me. Two education tracks at once looks like a bad time.

I mean sure, but that applies to all magic, not just the Grey College. It is not like Gold wizards use spells with the power of magic ledgers.
 
And not being able to play politics is a weighty ball and chain as a business mogul.
I completely forgot about this one. Greys are not supposed to meddle in inter-province politics. How is that even supposed to work during EIC expansion negotiations? Everything the EIC does indirectly benefits Stirland more than other polities.
And this issue is not as easily circumvented as the Vow of Poverty. We could only maybe do it for Heidi under the fig leaf of doing something else because she's the Empress and even then many players were against breaking the spirit of that rule.

I was meh on making Eike a Grey, but now I'm actually starting to be against it.
We have never had any issue with that.
We also never made running an inter-provincial mercantile organization that's specialized in gaining advantages through connections with powerful feudal lords our main pastime.

Mathilde is not, and never has been, your average Grey Wizard.
but it will mean that she will be required to make the EIC 'of direct and practical use to her cause'"
And what is Eike's cause? She'll either have to make one up that converts the EIC into primarily being more than a business or genuinely spend more time doing something besides running the EIC. As a Gold the EIC could be her cause if she so wishes
Yes, and?
Being mega wealthy is not a right, it's a priviledge, and frankly i see no problem with limiting Eike to merely obscenely wealthy with phenomenal cosmic powers, like Mathilde.
That really doesn't sound like Eike's interest is your priority here.


In general, I'm curious how many people would still vote Grey Order in the hopes of getting an apprentice here even if it literally meant that she'd have to give up on running the EIC.
 
Mina isn't a bad person
Let's look at Wilhemina from the outside:
  1. She straight-up bought a human being, separating her from her destitute mother (Wilhemina's son shares some of the blame here, but as it seems Wilhemina controls the family income and purse strings it makes sense to give Wilhemina a share of the blame regarding the lack of child support and dreadful + unethical handling of that whole affair).
    • There's no sugar-coating how massively fucked up this is, even if you take a very uncharitable view of Eike's mother and assume she was genuinely happy to sell her daughter and not effectively forced into it by poverty and Wilhemina's spontaneous and cruel "offer".
    • We don't know much about Wilhemina's personal life, but it seems to have turned out very badly for all involved. How much of this is her fault? IDK. But if you look at it uncharitably, this suggests that she's fairly terrible, personally.
  2. She got rich by using state security forces to execute and loot her competitors, claiming their wealth for herself instead of having it go to the state or be sold piecemeal. Sure her victims were technically guilty, but it starts looking like a habit when she then makes sure to have a Grey in her organisation to intimidate competition from other provinces and makes sure her ships are heavily armed :D
  3. She's not just a management worker: she's also a dirty capitalist extracting passive income from exploited workers :p
Let's list the good things Wilhemina did:
  1. She arranged for state security forces to crack down on organised corruption, and later made sure Stirland's main business cartel was constantly supervised and far more respectful of the law than its predecessors
  2. She was the supply backbone of a number of military victories against the undead, and helped to establish and supply fortifications agaisnt the constant threat of wandering man-eating Sylvanian monsters.
  3. She talked a Dwarf King into doing INFRASTRUCTURE which seems likely to be a massive net good for almost everyone (except Marienburg and related monopolists, but nobody in Stirland likes them anyway)
My verdict: 5/10. Arguably a net good for society (assuming you're not one to disagree with the whole "going from feudalism to capitalism is important and ultimately good despite the short-term human cost" logic) but probably not great as an individual. She's loyal to her friends, I guess?
 
Last edited:
Yeah, but given that Mathilde is stinking rich, I don't think she felt all that sad about lacking money in that moment. Really, that moment is more like Gretel going "Oh right, the rich persons order has some restrictions about richness".
I don't really think the envy in that moment had anything to do with money, more that Gretel has the freedom to be a layabout if she wants.
 
That really doesn't sound like Eike's interest is your priority here.


In general, I'm curious how many people would still vote Grey Order in the hopes of getting an apprentice here even if it literally meant that she'd have to give up on running the EIC.
I mean, sure, if you want Eike's interests come before interests of everyone else in the world, then sure, they are not.
But i don't see having phenomenal cosmic power, while being limited to being obscenely wealthy, as an undue burden to place on someone.
 
In general, I'm curious how many people would still vote Grey Order in the hopes of getting an apprentice here even if it literally meant that she'd have to give up on running the EIC.

She will not have to give it up, in fact the Grey Order will be very happy to have her running it. As seen here
You're coming at this from the wrong direction. Stop looking at it as 'would the Grey College trust Eike enough to have that level of financial power?' Instead think of it as 'would the Grey College like to have that level of financial power through one new initiate who comes with an extremely trusted Lady Magister already looking over her shoulder?' And the answer is yes. The Grey College has enough faith in itself to trust that someone they mould for the task will be a better steward of the EIC for the betterment of the Empire than whoever would take over if Eike was disinherited.
 
Even more notably, she seemed to spend this entire update assuming that everything was some sort of test. Which... isn't really healthy for a kid.
Which when I think about it is probably cultivating an Ulgu mindset in her already.

Like, the distrust of constantly thinking that there's a secret catch, that there's some correct answer hidden somewhere that she has to find to avoid *undefined consequences of failure*, that to me smells like one of the darker aspects of Ulgu's mystery and vagueness themes.

Let's list the good things Wilhemina did:
She's also opposing the religious and cultural dominance of the Sigmarites, that's also a plus. Now, if only we could work together and be more proactive about it...
 
I completely forgot about this one. Greys are not supposed to meddle in inter-province politics. How is that even supposed to work during EIC expansion negotiations? Everything the EIC does indirectly benefits Stirland more than other polities.
And this issue is not as easily circumvented as the Vow of Poverty. We could only maybe do it for Heidi under the fig leaf of doing something else because she's the Empress and even then many players were against breaking the spirit of that rule.

I was meh on making Eike a Grey, but now I'm actually starting to be against it.
We already have an example of how this works right? When that guy from Talabecland or some other province dropped by to talk to Mathilde?
 
Seemingly spontaneously developing an entirely new field of responsibilities that will maim and kill if you so much as screw up a syllable, on top of meeting Wilhemina's standards seems pretty stressful to me. Two education tracks at once looks like a bad time.
Learning to be a wizard is definitely stressful. Not knowing how to be a wizard is even more so, because it means you might explode at any moment.
But if Eike is in the College, Wilhelmine isn't going to supervise her any longer. Honestly, I expect she'll get less pressure, because stressing wizards is a fast way to a bad time. And some of the lessons the Greys teach would probably benefit her.

Like the "when was Melkoth born" thing. She'd probably get hit harder than most, but she'd learn that sometimes a test doesn't have an answer, or at least that the pursuit isn't worth it.
The Golds on the other hand seem like they would exacerbate her (anxiety/pressure driven) perfectionist tendencies.
And what is Eike's cause? She'll either have to make one up that converts the EIC into primarily being more than a business or genuinely spend more time doing something besides running the EIC. As a Gold the EIC could be her cause if she so wishes
The EIC already does several things that are worthy causes for a Grey. Collecting information (like the vampire traders), helping trade in the empire (both the EIC itself and letting other traders move under the protection of its navy), supplying military campaigns at reasonable cost. It really doesn't have to change to be a worthy cause.
I don't really think the envy in that moment had anything to do with money, more that Gretel has the freedom to be a layabout if she wants.
Ok, that is a godd point. I don't think Matty is the kind of person to be a layabout, but you're right that this is a real and significant restriction.
 
Here are some quotes showing Mathilde being unhappy with the Grey Order's restrictions off the top of my head:


There's probably more stuff sprinkled around - this is just what I could recall offhand and easily find.
So a second of minor envy and saying that the duties are more than the other orders.

Hardly the worst thing in the world.
I completely forgot about this one. Greys are not supposed to meddle in inter-province politics. How is that even supposed to work during EIC expansion negotiations? Everything the EIC does indirectly benefits Stirland more than other polities.
And this issue is not as easily circumvented as the Vow of Poverty. We could only maybe do it for Heidi under the fig leaf of doing something else because she's the Empress and even then many players were against breaking the spirit of that rule.

I was meh on making Eike a Grey, but now I'm actually starting to be against it.

We also never made running an inter-provincial mercantile organization that's specialized in gaining advantages through connections with powerful feudal lords our main pastime.

Mathilde is not, and never has been, your average Grey Wizard.

And what is Eike's cause? She'll either have to make one up that converts the EIC into primarily being more than a business or genuinely spend more time doing something besides running the EIC. As a Gold the EIC could be her cause if she so wishes

That really doesn't sound like Eike's interest is your priority here.


In general, I'm curious how many people would still vote Grey Order in the hopes of getting an apprentice here even if it literally meant that she'd have to give up on running the EIC.

Greys are supposed to act in the interests of the Empire, and a strong stirland is very clearly helping the empire considering Stirland is on one of the Empires most dangerous borders.

I don't see how what you said disputes what I said in my post in any way, though thanks for quoting a tiny fragment of it and making me have to dig up my original post.

There were no issues with Mathilde having money even before she showed herself to be exceptional.

Also that last line seems to have certain insinuations of what people want and I'm really not sure I like that.
 
Last edited:
I completely forgot about this one. Greys are not supposed to meddle in inter-province politics. How is that even supposed to work during EIC expansion negotiations? Everything the EIC does indirectly benefits Stirland more than other polities.

That's more of a prohibition against using Grey assassins against other Electors which is something everyone desires for obvious reasons.

My verdict: 5/10. Arguably a net good for society (assuming you're not one to disagree with the whole "going from feudalism to capitalism is important and ultimately good despite the short-term human cost" logic) but probably not great as an individual. She's loyal to her friends, I guess?

I'd rank her considerably higher - the Empire in Warhammer isn't the place that just needs a tad more human rights and more humane leadership - it is a place that desperately needs competent wartime leadership because between beastmen, orcs, undead and the occasional Chaos or Skaven attack all the time is wartime.

In terms of developing the economy and clawing some prosperity out of the endless pit of war Wilhelmine has done quite well. Nothing truly heroic but very well by the standards of imperial magnates.
 
No? DP says Mathilde is in top 8 because there are 8 LMs total including MP Algard and herself, and LMs outrank normal Magisters. Those Magisters being anonymous doesn't change that.
Thought all the magister lords were present in the scene where Mathilde was awarded her Magister Lordship (not sure that's the correct way of saying that), including Lady Magister Grey, and that Mathilde took the eight chair, implying that there were only 7 others including Algard.

Though come to think of it I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were out of the college at the time on business they couldn't extract themselves from
again, only if you think power=magic might/skill

Political power? social power? institutional power? (e.g part of the grey order org chart) there very much might be a few M Greys that are more 'power' than Mathy.
 
An odd thought that came up as a result of that Teclesian heresy that Magic and Divine are related:

I wonder if the Windsoak mushrooms grown made to cultivate divine energies?

And, following from that thought: How would you cook in a particularly and specifically Ranaldite way? (or Sigmarite/Verenan/Morrite/etc for that matter)?

EDIT: having typed that, I vaguely recall that the first question may have come up in the past, but I don't think the second has, and "what would the signature meal of [Insert faith here] be, and how can it be applied to cooking mushrooms?" seems like a fun one to me.
 
Last edited:
An odd thought that came up as a result of that Teclesian heresy that Magic and Divine are related:
Sidenote to the sidenote, given what we know of High magic, it does make sense with how Elves view religion as something to be more disparate, rather than devoting themselves to the teachings of an individual deity.


Also for Sigmarites, clearly you'd just need to hit it really hard with a Hammer :V
 
again, only if you think power=magic might/skill

Political power? social power? institutional power? (e.g part of the grey order org chart) there very much might be a few M Greys that are more 'power' than Mathy.
Being LM is political power. They are literally top dogs of the Colleges - they words have more weight in running their own College than normal Magisters' and they alone have the right to challenge SP for leadership. The title commands respect outside of the Colleges too - note the mountain of job offers coming Mathilde's way after her promotion.
 
Also for Sigmarites, clearly you'd just need to hit it really hard with a Hammer :V
I can't help but imagine that, given that these relate to faiths, it wouldn't just be about the methods, as it is for the winds, but also the ritual involved. (With bonus points if the end result can be said to have connotations of that specific god.)

Sigmarite: Smashed to bits with a meat tenderizer (hammer,) and stuffed in a sausage made with bits and/or spices of at least 12 different plants and animals.
Ulric: Stewed in a pot over the main hearth in the dead of winter.
 
Last edited:
Voting is open
Back
Top