Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[DragonParadox]

Aren't the Greys notable for their zero tolerance policies and having the most pacifications? We'd find a lot of trouble if we decided to drop our responsibilities to be a full on businesswoman, which Eike may need or even want to do. And I was more referring to their whole impetus to have their members keep themselves busy serving the Empire. Not unreasonable, but definitely disadvantageous compared to other Colleges, and the easier it is for Eike to manage two jobs the better.

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Pacification? I have no idea why you would even bring that up. The only reason anyone ever gets pacified (which is a fate worse than death) is if you have reason to believe a Black Magister would have some ways to cheat mere death. What in the name of Ranald does that have to do with any remotely ethical business practice?

We have seen how the Greys handle someone making money first hand, that is to say with a very light touch so long as you can prove that is not your principal reason for acting. On that note a life principally concerned with the acquisition of more money is neither healthy nor desirable in my opinion.

 

[Boney]

Aren't the Greys notable for their zero tolerance policies and having the most pacifications? We'd find a lot of trouble if we decided to drop our responsibilities to be a full on businesswoman, which Eike may need or even want to do. And I was more referring to their whole impetus to have their members keep themselves busy serving the Empire. Not unreasonable, but definitely disadvantageous compared to other Colleges, and the easier it is for Eike to manage two jobs the better.

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They have the most pacifications but not because it's on a zero tolerance Sword of Damocles hair trigger. It's partly as a reminder for everyone else, pour encourager les autres and all that, partly because Ulgu can be so easily and horribly misused, and partly because when a Grey Wizard goes bad it's usually another Grey Wizard that brings them to justice, both because the Greys like to keep it in-house and because a Grey Wizard is a lot less easy for the Templars to track down than the other flavours of rogue Wizard.

And a reminder, having the most pacifications isn't the same as having a lot of pacifications.

Previous post on the subject:

It's very much intended to be one step worse than mere execution. It's not for those that oopsie down the slippery slope, but for those that eyeballed the slippery slope and decided what they really needed to do was took a good long run-up and throw themselves down it at maximum speed, possibly while high-fiving a Vampire or a Chaos God on the way down. It allows the Colleges to demonstrate that they take this sort of thing very seriously indeed and mollify those that just got freaked out at whatever the traitor did, and possibly ensures that any tricky little spells they might have cast or bargains they might have struck that could allow them to wriggle out of a normal death are rendered void.

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[DragonParadox]

I'm not seeking to set parameters for success, I'm seeking to point out being wealthy while being the head of trade company would be much easier as a Gold than a Grey. Less restrictions on wealth accumulation and more ways to leverage it in ways magically beneficial, less pressure on how you live and what you do. Having money would avoid her having to prioritize what types she pursues, and can do expensive things like Gild her entire body as soon as she wants to.

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It should be noted that most Gold wizards do not gild themselves, because while managing it perfectly can make you immortal, failure which is a lot more likely will leave you crippled or dead.

 

[NavySeel]

I'm not seeking to set parameters for success, I'm seeking to point out being wealthy while being the head of trade company would be much easier as a Gold than a Grey. Less restrictions on wealth accumulation and more ways to leverage it in ways magically beneficial, less pressure on how you live and what you do. Having money would avoid her having to prioritize what types she pursues, and can do expensive things like Gild her entire body as soon as she wants to.

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Having more reasons to want large quantities of money to take focus away from the diplomatic and economic(in the sense of allowing trade between the empire and the wider world) purposes of the EIC seems like a downside to me.

I'd rather avoid the possibility of her ending up seeing the EIC as primarily a way to increase her personal power, magical or otherwise.

 

[Valmond]

I'm not seeking to set parameters for success, I'm seeking to point out being wealthy while being the head of trade company would be much easier as a Gold than a Grey. Less restrictions on wealth accumulation and more ways to leverage it in ways magically beneficial, less pressure on how you live and what you do. Having money would avoid her having to prioritize what types she pursues, and can do expensive things like Gild her entire body as soon as she wants to.

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You say this like it is a good thing.
The wealthy and the powerful should have pressure on how they live their life and what they do, lot of problems in the world come from that not being the case.
Again, i am not seeing this horrible limitations that being in the Grey Order would bring her.
If anything, being part of the Grey Order would encourage her to be the kind of individual i hope she would become, while having fairly minimal restrictions on things she may do without becomming someone we need to start taking down for over reach and/or corruption.

 

[pucflek]

We kinda need someone to run EIC full-time thought.

 

[The3rdCorinthian]

One thing About the Gold I will say is that it's the best choice for Wilhelmina.

Mina is Noted to be incredibly Ambitious and Intense about Trade. She loves making Number go up, and If it wasn't for the fact that she also has a very strong moral compass, I'd like her a lot less for it. If Eike had her personality, she'd thrive in the Golds.

Eike doesn't strike me as having her personality, and tying into that, I feel like a lot of the recent arguments made do feel like they'd fit Wilhelmina better for it. Eike feels like she just doesn't have the desire to personally gain wealth beyond what she'd need to do for the EIC.

I don't think she'd do badly there, and it would synergise quite well with her current situation which is part of why I voted for it. But If I had to choose between the Jades and the Golds, I'd choose the Jades.

 

[DragonParadox]

We kinda need someone to run EIC full-time thought.

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And why would that person not be a Grey Wizard? The company exists for the benefit of the Empire after all.

 

[Copperscale]

I'd rather avoid the possibility of her ending up seeing the EIC as primarily a way to increase her personal power, magical or otherwise.

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If she looks like she's about to cross the line, That's when the silent partner lord Magister Grey steps in.

 

[Valmond]

If she looks like she's about to cross the line, That's when the silent partner lord Magister Grey steps in.

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And i very much would like to avoid that situation, because the consequences may start from "a quiet word" but end with "murder", because we do not want to have to spend time constantly looking after her once she is a magister.

 

[NeonLights]

Pacification? I have no idea why you would even bring that up. The only reason anyone ever gets pacified (which is a fate worse than death) is if you have reason to believe a Black Magister would have some ways to cheat mere death. What in the name of Ranald does that have to do with any remotely ethical business practice.

We have seen how the Greys handle someone making money first hand, that is to say with a very light touch so long as you can prove that is not your principal reason for acting. On that note a life principally concerned with the acquisition of more money is neither healthy nor desirable in my opinion.

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I got ribbed with the Grey's not poking our cartload of silver, I ribbed back by pointing out they are a spy agency that harshly handles members who step out of line. I do not actually think Eike will do anything stupid, and it was meant to be read in a sarcastic tone. Would make it more of joke, but it wouldn't have been funny.

And sure, austerity can be a moral good, but unless you live in the woods money still has a valuable purpose. And Eike most likely will be building connections within civilizations.

It should be noted that most Gold wizards do not gild themselves, because while managing it perfectly can make you immortal, failure which is a lot more likely will leave you crippled or dead.

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Whether she does or does not is up to her, but it's always nice to have options. And it was more as a demonstration that wealth would be more useful to a Gold than a Grey for Alchemy and such, whereas gold will only take her so far with the Greys.

Having more reasons to want large quantities of money to take focus away from the diplomatic and economic(in the sense of allowing trade between the empire and the wider world) purposes of the EIC seems like a downside to me.

I'd rather avoid the possibility of her ending up seeing the EIC as primarily a way to increase her personal power, magical or otherwise.

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Cutting off avenues for those behaviors only causes them to manifest in different ways. The important thing is that she's taught right, and Wilhelmina already did that. She won't see the EIC solely as means of profit because she wasn't taught that, it doesn't currently operate like that, and we'll slap her if she tries to kick us out so it can work for profit alone. And for all that money is useful, it's a secondary benefit to supplying critical goods and improving the situation of the provinces it operates in.

You say this like it is a good thing.
The wealthy and the powerful should have pressure on how they live their life and what they do, lot of problems in the world come from that not being the case.
Again, i am not seeing this horrible limitations that being in the Grey Order would bring her.
If anything, being part of the Grey Order would encourage her to be the kind of individual i hope she would become, while having fairly minimal restrictions on things she may do without becomming someone we need to start taking down for over reach and/or corruption.

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Yes, because I want to alleviate the plight of someone who is about have their world upheaved by spending ten years on a campus to have an easy time when they go back out to readjust to the world again, as well as help them do the best they can to handle two jobs at the same time. And for the love of god, she's twelve! At least wait for her to steal a biscuit or something before you talk about taking her down. There's no indication of negative personality traits that will cause issues. We're not letting some criminal offender loose to rejoin a gang, we're taking her to join a College.

 

[Argent Citadel]

[X] Wizard
-[X] Let Eike decide

 

[pucflek]

And why would that person not be a Grey Wizard? The company exists for the benefit of the Empire after all.

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Because owning something and running something are different things. Like i don't know but the vow of poverty does exist, and while its being played with very loosely, its because Mathilde or Magisters like Regimand that own businesses are already proven to be exceptional personages beyond any shadow of doubt. This is not transitional from Master to Student. Mathilde's apprentice is not her, so she won't have nearly as much leeway in potentially running it unless and until she proves herself similarily.

I am also not sure how much time a grey wizard could spend actually running the business. Mathilde has a hand in EIC, but its a shadow hand, she only involves herself in really high tier decisions and she does not spend like 90% of her time running it. Wilhelmine does, and so will Eike if she actually inherits it. So i am not really convinced that the loopholes that Mathilde makes use of with the Grey College approval to bypass the Vow of Poverty would actually apply to such invested involvement.

 

[DragonParadox]

Do you guys recall why Van Hall founded the EIC? It was not to make Wilhelmina rich, or Mathy, or Anton and certainly not to make the Barons no name rich. The EIC exists for the benefit if Stirland and increasingly the Empire as a whole as it expands. Eike deciding to become a business woman full time with all the powers of a magister and using that for no other reason that to become ever more wealthy is not desirable. It is not inherently bad so long as he remains relatively ethical in her pursuit of wealth, but it would be better if she had reason to grow into the kind of person who sees the use of the company as more than a profit machine.

 

[pucflek]

Do you guys recall why Van Hall founded the EIC? It was not to make Wilhelmina rich, or Mathy, or Anton and certainly not to make the Barons no name rich. The EIC exists for the benefit if Stirland and increasingly the Empire as a whole as it expands. Eike deciding to become a business woman full time with all the powers of a magister and using that for no other reason that to become ever more wealthy is not desirable. It is not inherently bad so long as he remains relatively ethical in her pursuit of wealth, but it would be batter if she had reason to grow into the kind of person who sees the use of the company as more than a profit machine.

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This is not actually addressing my argument in any way whatsoever.

My opinion that stems from my understanding of current treatment and explanations of Vow of Poverty is that Eike could easily run afoul of them because actually running the huge trading company is a full time job, and grey wizard that spends all their time on running a business is probably not good. What policies the company as a whole pursues are wholly irrelevant to it.

Also its ultimately a trading company, so it actually has to make money to stay afloat and at least somewhat competitive, you know.

 

[BurnNote]

If she looks like she's about to cross the line, That's when the silent partner lord Magister Grey steps in.

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Frankly, we have better things to do. That's why we hired the Hochlander (though he takes care of the intelligence/security part specifically). The EIC has a lot of potential to help the thread, but the majority decided that it was more interested in other ways to do good. Eike could do it as a full time job, and do a lot of good with it. Especially since the EIC is only going to explode in importance in the mid-term future, when the channel revolutionizes trade and the silk... also revolutionizes trade.

Seriously, the EIC is going to play at the highest level of politics. It already was involved in nearly starting a war. The scale of money involved here moves armies. A fraction already did, since a small slice of the smaller silk trade with Cathay was what got Barak Varr involved.

Yes, Eike would be under scrutiny of the Greys if she was a member. She'd also be under intense scrutiny of the Greys and everyone else if she wasn't, just how Marienburg is.

 

[NavySeel]

Because owning something and running something are different things. Like i don't know but the vow of poverty does exist, and while its being played with very loosely, its because Mathilde or Magisters like Regimand that own businesses are already proven to be exceptional personages beyond any shadow of doubt. This is not transitional from Master to Student. Mathilde's apprentice is not her, so she won't have nearly as much leeway in potentially running it unless and until she proves herself similarily.

I am also not sure how much time a grey wizard could spend actually running the business. Mathilde has a hand in EIC, but its a shadow hand, she only involves herself in really high tier decisions and she does not spend like 90% of her time running it. Wilhelmine does, and so will Eike if she actually inherits it. So i am not really convinced that the loopholes that Mathilde makes use of with the Grey College approval to bypass the Vow of Poverty would actually apply to such invested involvement.

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I don't see how her focusing on the EIC and it's information network and diplomatic role would be an issue.

Diplomacy and Intrigue are literally the roles of the Grey college.

Not to mention that Mathilde was nowhere near thus exceptional when she was involved in the founding of the EIC and given her share, she was decent sure, but she was just some random journeywoman.

 

[Boney]

Because owning something and running something are different things. Like i don't know but the vow of poverty does exist, and while its being played with very loosely, its because Mathilde or Magisters like Regimand that own businesses are already proven to be exceptional personages beyond any shadow of doubt. This is not transitional from Master to Student. Mathilde's apprentice is not her, so she won't have nearly as much leeway in potentially running it unless and until she proves herself similarily.

I am also not sure how much time a grey wizard could spend actually running the business. Mathilde has a hand in EIC, but its a shadow hand, she only involves herself in really high tier decisions and she does not spend like 90% of her time running it. Wilhelmine does, and so will Eike if she actually inherits it. So i am not really convinced that the loopholes that Mathilde makes use of with the Grey College approval to bypass the Vow of Poverty would actually apply to such invested involvement.

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You're coming at this from the wrong direction. Stop looking at it as 'would the Grey College trust Eike enough to have that level of financial power?' Instead think of it as 'would the Grey College like to have that level of financial power through one new initiate who comes with an extremely trusted Lady Magister already looking over her shoulder?' And the answer is yes. The Grey College has enough faith in itself to trust that someone they mould for the task will be a better steward of the EIC for the betterment of the Empire than whoever would take over if Eike was disinherited.

 

[DragonParadox]

I got ribbed with the Grey's not poking our cartload of silver, I ribbed back by pointing out they are a spy agency that harshly handles members who step out of line. I do not actually think Eike will do anything stupid, and it was meant to be read in a sarcastic tone. Would make it more of joke, but it wouldn't have been funny.

And sure, austerity can be a moral good, but unless you live in the woods money still has a valuable purpose. And Eike most likely will be building connections within civilizations.

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There is a vast plain of existence between living in the woods, or indeed anything that can be called 'austerity' and a life lived primarily in the pursuit of profit. Most humans prefer to live in that plane in fact.

Because owning something and running something are different things. Like i don't know but the vow of poverty does exist, and while its being played with very loosely, its because Mathilde or Magisters like Regimand that own businesses are already proven to be exceptional personages beyond any shadow of doubt. This is not transitional from Master to Student. Mathilde's apprentice is not her, so she won't have nearly as much leeway in potentially running it unless and until she proves herself similarily.

I am also not sure how much time a grey wizard could spend actually running the business. Mathilde has a hand in EIC, but its a shadow hand, she only involves herself in really high tier decisions and she does not spend like 90% of her time running it. Wilhelmine does, and so will Eike if she actually inherits it. So i am not really convinced that the loopholes that Mathilde makes use of with the Grey College approval to bypass the Vow of Poverty would actually apply to such invested involvement.

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Well Lord Magister Weber does not think there would be any major issues per the update, and being as she is at least the seventh most powerful person in the order I am inclined to believe her.

 

[pucflek]

You're coming at this from the wrong direction. Stop looking at it as 'would the Grey College trust Eike enough to have that level of financial power?' Instead think of it as 'would the Grey College like to have that level of financial power through one new initiate who comes with an extremely trusted Lady Magister already looking over her shoulder?' And the answer is yes. The Grey College has enough faith in itself to trust that someone they mould for the task will be a better steward of the EIC for the betterment of the Empire than whoever would take over if Eike was disinherited.

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Fair enough. Thanks for clarification.

 

[NeonLights]

Do you guys recall why Van Hall founded the EIC? It was not to make Wilhelmina rich, or Mathy, or Anton and certainly not to make the Barons no name rich. The EIC exists for the benefit if Stirland and increasingly the Empire as a whole as it expands. Eike deciding to become a business woman full time with all the powers of a magister and using that for no other reason that to become ever more wealthy is not desirable. It is not inherently bad so long as he remains relatively ethical in her pursuit of wealth, but it would be batter if she had reason to grow into the kind of person who sees the use of the company as more than a profit machine.

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It was boon for breaking the Stirlandian League, so it would be more accurate to classify it as what Wilhelmina wanted it to be. It speaks to the content of her character that it operates ethically. And that Van Hal was right there, but she did never miss a trick when it came to turning a profit. And money for the sake of money is very unlikely to be pursued. We spent loads of silver on towers, books, and reagents, why can't Eike do the same but benefit even more from it?

There is a vast plain of existence between living in the woods, or indeed anything that can be called 'austerity' and a life lived primarily in the pursuit of profit. Most humans prefer to live in that plane in fact.

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You're assuming that Eike will value profit first and foremost when there's no indication that's the case. She been positively influenced by many different people, and it would take deliberate continued effort by a hostile actor to wind all that back. Which no responsible adult in the Colleges will let happen.

 

[Valmond]

Yes, because I want to alleviate the plight of someone who is about have their world upheaved by spending ten years on a campus to have an easy time when they go back out to readjust to the world again, as well as help them do the best they can to handle two jobs at the same time. And for the love of god, she's twelve! At least wait for her to steal a biscuit or something before you talk about taking her down. There's no indication of negative personality traits that will cause issues. We're not letting some criminal offender loose to rejoin a gang, we're taking her to join a College.

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Yes, the plight of a kid from .0001% who is about to learn they will not merely be obscenely rich, but also have access to phenomenal cosmic power.
Let's give her some money so she can cope.
Yes, she is 12, and a heir to immense wealth and power even before we add any magic into the mix.
And that means she is very much in her formative years, and how she is raised will have major repercussions, and seeing wealth as a goal is not something we want to instill on her.

The way Grey and Gold colleges look at wealth are very different, and i much prefer Grey perspective to Gold when it comes to future trade magnates.

 

[NavySeel]

I got ribbed with the Grey's not poking our cartload of silver, I ribbed back by pointing out they are a spy agency that harshly handles members who step out of line. I do not actually think Eike will do anything stupid, and it was meant to be read in a sarcastic tone. Would make it more of joke, but it wouldn't have been funny.

And sure, austerity can be a moral good, but unless you live in the woods money still has a valuable purpose. And Eike most likely will be building connections within civilizations.

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Well then it's a good thing that the Grey college doesn't expect its members to live in the woods. And yes building connections is something the Grey college would have no issues with someone spending money on.

 

[Zero Gravitas]

Easy rules, but still rules. Money isn't the big ticket issue in question, it's the Grey Order wanting it's membership to be actively serving the Empire to a sufficient degree. Why make it harder for her to balance her dual loyalties when it could be easier for her with the Golds, where making money is a necessity in and of itself?

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We don't even know if she's necessarily interested in the Golds... like, I'm all for letting Eike choose but I doubt the advantages of having a Lady Magister as a mentor are any less than having a big pile of gold.

Heck, maybe she's most suited for Amethyst and she'll sacrifice all that gold but end up becoming the new Matriarch's apprentice and will end up flying on an Amethyst dragon all day long. Or maybe if left to her own devices she'll want to learn beast or life magic and will simply view running a trading company as a chore.

That's not to knock down the possibility of Eike becoming a superb gold wizard - but 'more money' shouldn't be the only consideration of Eike's career.

Whether she does or does not is up to her, but it's always nice to have options. And it was more as a demonstration that wealth would be more useful to a Gold than a Grey for Alchemy and such, whereas gold will only take her so far with the Greys.

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Gold will only take her so far anywhere because she's not going to increase her magic talents by having a pile of gold.

 

[DragonParadox]

You're assuming that Eike will value profit first and foremost when there's no indication that's the case. She been positively influenced by many different people, and it would take deliberate continued effort by a hostile actor to wind all that back. Which no responsible adult in the Colleges will let happen.

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No, I am not. I'm saying that in any case other than that the Grey College would be fine with her stewardship of the EIC, as evidenced by the Bursar's reaction to the cart of defrauded money. The Grey Order also comes with the advantage of a Lady Magister interested in her which makes her more likely to get a better education.