Codex
Fantasy Addict
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Being pedantic, Mathilde is technically the 8th most powerful member of the Grey Order as there are 6 LMs not including her and the Magister Patriarch.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
True, thanks for the correction.
NeonLights
Formerly Reliable_2IC
- Location
- In shambles
Yes, she's handling the looming specter of death while freshly going into an unfamiliar environment, while her responsibilities outside the Colleges aren't going away. Right now she going to need to handle the stress of learning about said cosmic power so that she doesn't use it wrong and die gruesomely, while also continuing her education so that in time she can handle a vast and growing business that is working on projects with significant geopolitical ramifications. That would be hard on a mature adult. And saying money is bad would be hypocritical given how much we've benefitted from spending it. Her priority will be to Keep the Wagons Rolling and that Mathilde is there to Keep Her Honest, not money for the money god, coins for the coin throne.
Yes, but wouldn't it be much better if the money she will make anyway is used as an asset to be harnessed and used freely, while also being useful magically? I'm not saying her going to the Greys is some grave wrong, it's just that she'll find an easier time with the Golds.
True, but she hasn't made that choice yet, we're still in the recommendation phase. I'm not advocating that the priority should be money, I'm saying that she would have an easier time with the Golds than the Greys. And having money to purchase the things a materials science focused College used is a good portion of the battle won already, as well getting spares in case of errors.
Apologies, then I must have misinterpreted. It's true that a Lord Magister education for her is off the table unless she proves particular capable. But in any case I don't see why attitudes towards money are important. There doesn't seem to be any risk of corrupting influence in her near future. If she does go to the Golds they'll probably go hard on Alchemy and True Transmutation, but that's the way their magic and culture works and hardly a wrong unless you loathe chemistry.
- Location
- Norway
Figure internal politics in the grey order is heavily discouraged, so who is actually more powerful among the grey lord magisters is probably pretty hard to pin down. Would think it's a mix of personal ability, their office within the order (bursar, porter, etc), their rep/contributions to the order, and seniority, but I don't think there is much difference in the power one magister lord can leverage compared to others and I wouldn't be surprised if Mathilde has more influence than some of them just off the weight of her accomplishments.
Mathilde is somewhere among the eight most powerful people in her order, but what that actually translates to in influence I don't know.
Mathilde is somewhere among the eight most powerful people in her order, but what that actually translates to in influence I don't know.
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If you follow the thread of conversation back you can see it started with a discussion of the Vow of Poverty and how it would constrain her. In short the argument was about how the vow has nothing to do with what any reasonable person would call poverty. It was not an argument against Golds on the grounds of them being greedy assholes*, it was saying no one but a person focused on nothing but profit would have an issue running a company and being part of the Grey Order.
*for one I do not think they are, I mean look at Max and Johann.
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- Location
- Finland
I do not see how any of this relates to Gold and Grey orders.
Being even more pedantic, there is at least one M. Grey in the College hierarchy, maybe more. so depending on your definition of 'powerful' (magic muscle vs social, political and might) there could be up to 15 more powerful Greys.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
While this is probably mostly true, it's also fair to point out that Mathilde is basically brand new to the post, younger than anyone else even in just raw age, and they've all got damn impressive achievements of their own.
Which reminds me of those not-so-classified achievements that all the apprentices supposedly gossip about. Wonder if the whole "dragged a mountain out of Hell" thing has started making the rounds yet.
Also, I love how absolutely Ranaldian the coming conversation is shaping up to be. Yes, Eike should one hundred percent make the choice herself... but we're certainly not against putting a couple thumbs on the scales to make the Grey College look more appealing. Sorta like how all the different groups were offering incentives for where to host our Waystone research.
Also Alos, I am now for some reason wondering what Lady Magister Eike could look like in the far-flung future. Maybe she'll get elven or dragon infection like how Mathilde has dwarves. That would be hilarious.
- Location
- Russia
No? DP says Mathilde is in top 8 because there are 8 LMs total including MP Algard and herself, and LMs outrank normal Magisters. Those Magisters being anonymous doesn't change that.
There is just one LM Grey.
There's a lot of M Greys but M<LM.
Mathilde is bound to have the most oversized 'outside' sort of influence (except maybe Algard due to his friendship with Dragomas). She's got cred from gifting all the colleges with magic safe rooms, she has connections with the Imperial family and with an Elector, she's got even more connections with the Dawi, she's got a number of more tenuous connections to both the Asur and the Eonir, etc.
That's a very large sphere of influence which the Grey College can only easily tap through Mathilde so her attention is bound to be particularly valuable even by comparison to other LMs.
- Location
- Norway
Thought all the magister lords were present in the scene where Mathilde was awarded her Magister Lordship (not sure that's the correct way of saying that), including Lady Magister Grey, and that Mathilde took the eight chair, implying that there were only 7 others including Algard.
Though come to think of it I wouldn't be surprised if some of them were out of the college at the time on business they couldn't extract themselves from
I think it's fairly certain she's got the least influence on the internal decision making of the Lord Magisters. This is both because she's the youngest and newest, and more importantly because she just don't take part in the process and lives incredibly far away. Consulting her just isn't part of anyones decision process.
For rep/accopmplishments: to be a Lord Magister, you need some bonkers archivements, Matty is only in notable how young she did it. I don't she's above the others. And they've had a lot more time to accumulate deeds.
NeonLights
Formerly Reliable_2IC
- Location
- In shambles
That was counterpoint to the .0001% thing, where if she fails with either there will be dire consequences. Moreso with magic than with finance, but the point stands. She's going to be undergoing significant stress, both from whiplash of having her life uprooted, and working to prove equal to the responsibilities she will have to take up. It would be easier to do so in the Golds where the standards will be laxer, the curriculum will be familiar in some places, and she'll be to build on existing strengths while leveraging her current education and resources, compared to the Greys where the standards are more stringent and she has to start from near scratch.
What stress? Seriously when have we ever been stressed because we were part of the order? When have they ever pushed us into doing something or not doing something for that matter?
From what experiance are you getting the notion that being part of the order is stressful to its members?
Let's circle back, and see what Mathilde has to say about each order:
Simple enough, Eike looses her inheritance. Nothing else about suitability, though.
Okay, but imagining a pyromancer or a beastmage heading a boardroom meeting is kinda funny. But yeah, these winds don't mesh well with her current position, and would result in Wilhelmina finding someone else to inherit her position.
Mathilde thinks that gold would make for a strong Eike, and I can see why. Although the Gold's main focus is on material science, their studies are highly expensive, driving them to find and exploit new income streams. Gaining access to the EIC via an apprentice would be highly beneficial to them, and they'd take care to properly nurture Eike into a skilled steward, but the Golds are also famous for their lack of diplomacy.
Eh, I'm not convinced. There's the argument that Jades take the long view, and that food is essential for civilisation, economy and trade (which is actually why I voted for Eike to meet the Halflings) but those are very much secondary and tertiary concerns of the Jade order, and I worry any financial education they'll give won't be as complete as the Golds or the Greys.
Honestly, I think any collage would be disappointed if Eike didn't make the EIC 'of direct and practical use to her cause', it's just that the Greys are the only ones to make it a Vow. The EIC is a tool, and Eike should turn that tool towards the end of improving the Empire—and I feel the Greys are the ones best suited to encourage and promote that. The Greys teach diplomacy, stewardship and intrigue. The EIC handles foreign relations, economic development and information gathering. These are valuable skills that match the purpose of the EIC very well. I can't see the golds handling the diplomacy or the intrigue aspects very well at all—the stereotypical gold is aloof, arrogant and asocial, and whilst we've seen plenty of counterexamples in the quest, they've always been noted as exceptions.
As for Celestials and Lights... Well, based on Huberts experiences, I'm not sure Celestial would be a good fit for her. Sure, seeing omens and portents would be useful in a trader, but if she goes deep on the mystical aspects, would she care about the practicalities of the EIC?
As for the Lights... well, she'd probably be a very strong Light... eventually, but I doubt someone being groomed for a leadership position would be comfortable as part of a choir. Still, most Lights are Shallyans, so she could fit in there. They also wield healing abilities, same as the Jades, so maybe she could grow into the person that makes a good Light? I'm not sure how that would affect the EIC though.
TL;DR: I can see positives for Gold, Jade, Light and Grey, but of them all, I feel Grey has the most advantages and the fewest disadvantages for both Eike and the EIC.
Simple enough, Eike looses her inheritance. Nothing else about suitability, though.
Okay, but imagining a pyromancer or a beastmage heading a boardroom meeting is kinda funny. But yeah, these winds don't mesh well with her current position, and would result in Wilhelmina finding someone else to inherit her position.
Mathilde thinks that gold would make for a strong Eike, and I can see why. Although the Gold's main focus is on material science, their studies are highly expensive, driving them to find and exploit new income streams. Gaining access to the EIC via an apprentice would be highly beneficial to them, and they'd take care to properly nurture Eike into a skilled steward, but the Golds are also famous for their lack of diplomacy.
Eh, I'm not convinced. There's the argument that Jades take the long view, and that food is essential for civilisation, economy and trade (which is actually why I voted for Eike to meet the Halflings) but those are very much secondary and tertiary concerns of the Jade order, and I worry any financial education they'll give won't be as complete as the Golds or the Greys.
Honestly, I think any collage would be disappointed if Eike didn't make the EIC 'of direct and practical use to her cause', it's just that the Greys are the only ones to make it a Vow. The EIC is a tool, and Eike should turn that tool towards the end of improving the Empire—and I feel the Greys are the ones best suited to encourage and promote that. The Greys teach diplomacy, stewardship and intrigue. The EIC handles foreign relations, economic development and information gathering. These are valuable skills that match the purpose of the EIC very well. I can't see the golds handling the diplomacy or the intrigue aspects very well at all—the stereotypical gold is aloof, arrogant and asocial, and whilst we've seen plenty of counterexamples in the quest, they've always been noted as exceptions.
As for Celestials and Lights... Well, based on Huberts experiences, I'm not sure Celestial would be a good fit for her. Sure, seeing omens and portents would be useful in a trader, but if she goes deep on the mystical aspects, would she care about the practicalities of the EIC?
As for the Lights... well, she'd probably be a very strong Light... eventually, but I doubt someone being groomed for a leadership position would be comfortable as part of a choir. Still, most Lights are Shallyans, so she could fit in there. They also wield healing abilities, same as the Jades, so maybe she could grow into the person that makes a good Light? I'm not sure how that would affect the EIC though.
TL;DR: I can see positives for Gold, Jade, Light and Grey, but of them all, I feel Grey has the most advantages and the fewest disadvantages for both Eike and the EIC.
- Location
- France
We have seen Mathilde be resentful of the restrictions and/or jealous of other orders who don't have to think about them. They're not something she can always casually ignore, especially when making important life decisions.
Chlof
Her Ladyship
- Pronouns
- She/Her
With what we know of how Wilhelmina parents I think she'll be significantly less stressed while she's living in the colleges.
I can't really think of such a moment off the top of my head. Could you give an example?
- Location
- Norway
There was a moment in one of the social turns with the ducklings, where Gretel goes "I'm going to stay here" referring to K8P and her 99-year lease of a tower, Mathilde responds "is your order ok with that" or something to that effect to which Gretel responds "why wouldn't they be? Oh yeah they aren't like yours" after which Mathilde seems briefly jealous.
That's the only one I can remember off the top of my head.
- Location
- England, unfortunately.
- Pronouns
- She/They
Yeah, remember, Eike and Wilhelmina have had arguments before now. Matty initially thought Eike might have come here due to getting into a Spat with Wilhelmina.
Mina isn't a bad person, but she has very high standards and goals, and can be very stubborn about them.
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Fair enough, does not seem to have been much of an issue given that our tower is better.
- Location
- France
Here are some quotes showing Mathilde being unhappy with the Grey Order's restrictions off the top of my head:
There's probably more stuff sprinkled around - this is just what I could recall offhand and easily find.
Ericwinter
Definitely not a Skaven Infiltrator
- Location
- America
Even more notably, she seemed to spend this entire update assuming that everything was some sort of test. Which... isn't really healthy for a kid.
- Location
- Singapore
I'd to start by putting forth the following: I think the vote for Letting Eike Decide, right now comes from the position of what is best and doing right Eike. The Winds are such a personal, irrevocable life choice, that assuming a spherical magic vacuum, where Eike being sensitive to the Winds is the only factor of consideration here, Mathilde would rather that Eike chooses her winds, because of how personal each Wizard builds their relations with it.
What does this imply? Firstly, there is no reasonable way Eike can make this decision as it is, so in so far Mathilde is unique placed to help Eike, it's via helping Eike to make a very well informed decision (far more informed than Mathilde ever had a chance to make) , something Mathilde likely is extremely well placed to do both within the Eight Peaks and beyond. I suspect we do have a choice of how much we'd like to invest in making Eike informed, but I suspect the thread will unanimously make that investment. Secondly, and I suspect most importantly, Mathilde would need to convey to Wilhemina that each of the Colleges works to cultivate a certain range of mentalities amendable to their wind. Wilhemina's heir will be moulded to a degree Wilhemina can barely begin to conceive, the College has been doing this to it's students for centuries, and each College imbues it's own unique range of mindsets, the process of which , differs from College to College, of which Mathilde only confidently comprehends for the Grey.
Which I suspect is where the next phase of Mathilde's argument will stem from. Firstly, and this shouldn't be surprising, Mathilde likely believes that the mindset of the Grey is likely the best for the EIC, as it's current purpose is to the Empire, and most certainly to the security of Eike's inheritance, and to the skills Eike needs to get into her inheritance. The Grey College can give the finest education anyone in the old World could provide, most definitely in the field of politics, and in the Field of Economics and trade, only surpassed by the Gold - the Grey College are masters of blending into the wider world when needed. Mathilde's ability to influence Eike's education, is strongest without question within the Grey College, as is her ability to advise and mentor and be a patron to Eike as a Wizard.
Secondly, I suspect she'd give a read on Eike: her impressions of Eike is that she is attentive, perceptive and adaptable (see the days she spent with Kazrik), three traits that, in Mathilde's admittedly immensely biased opinion, Eike will likely thrive within the Grey College. Eike has things that pique Mathilde's interest in taking her in as an apprentice and student, but only should Eike decide to embrace Ulgu. That being said, she is also able to brief Wilhemina on the potential merits of the Gold or Jade (but not as well as the Grey) , and can make introductions to people she regard as friends who can give an informed decision of what it means to embrace Chamon or Ghyran (Jade especially via Panoramia, who probably can get Eike an in via the clannish nature of the Jades , plus Eike's own current religious orientation) and possibly provide mentorship should Eike choose those paths. She would of course warn Wilhemina that her capability to help Eike would be limited outside the Grey.
But I suspect as the votes stand, Mathilde would strongly advise Wilhemina that Eike must be sent to the Colleges, the other options are just too risky.
This actually implies letting Eike decide is going to be the most terrifying test Eike ever has to make, one where there is only a right answer for you, with very real consequences for your mind and soul. Something tells me Eike will retroactively think the past few days was Mathilde assessing Eike's suitability for the Colleges, a test Eike passed, and if she had failed... well the articles are clear, and I suspect if Mathilde tried, Eike could recite them within a week and give you a perfectly orthodox essay of why it is necessary in a month.
What does this imply? Firstly, there is no reasonable way Eike can make this decision as it is, so in so far Mathilde is unique placed to help Eike, it's via helping Eike to make a very well informed decision (far more informed than Mathilde ever had a chance to make) , something Mathilde likely is extremely well placed to do both within the Eight Peaks and beyond. I suspect we do have a choice of how much we'd like to invest in making Eike informed, but I suspect the thread will unanimously make that investment. Secondly, and I suspect most importantly, Mathilde would need to convey to Wilhemina that each of the Colleges works to cultivate a certain range of mentalities amendable to their wind. Wilhemina's heir will be moulded to a degree Wilhemina can barely begin to conceive, the College has been doing this to it's students for centuries, and each College imbues it's own unique range of mindsets, the process of which , differs from College to College, of which Mathilde only confidently comprehends for the Grey.
Which I suspect is where the next phase of Mathilde's argument will stem from. Firstly, and this shouldn't be surprising, Mathilde likely believes that the mindset of the Grey is likely the best for the EIC, as it's current purpose is to the Empire, and most certainly to the security of Eike's inheritance, and to the skills Eike needs to get into her inheritance. The Grey College can give the finest education anyone in the old World could provide, most definitely in the field of politics, and in the Field of Economics and trade, only surpassed by the Gold - the Grey College are masters of blending into the wider world when needed. Mathilde's ability to influence Eike's education, is strongest without question within the Grey College, as is her ability to advise and mentor and be a patron to Eike as a Wizard.
Secondly, I suspect she'd give a read on Eike: her impressions of Eike is that she is attentive, perceptive and adaptable (see the days she spent with Kazrik), three traits that, in Mathilde's admittedly immensely biased opinion, Eike will likely thrive within the Grey College. Eike has things that pique Mathilde's interest in taking her in as an apprentice and student, but only should Eike decide to embrace Ulgu. That being said, she is also able to brief Wilhemina on the potential merits of the Gold or Jade (but not as well as the Grey) , and can make introductions to people she regard as friends who can give an informed decision of what it means to embrace Chamon or Ghyran (Jade especially via Panoramia, who probably can get Eike an in via the clannish nature of the Jades , plus Eike's own current religious orientation) and possibly provide mentorship should Eike choose those paths. She would of course warn Wilhemina that her capability to help Eike would be limited outside the Grey.
But I suspect as the votes stand, Mathilde would strongly advise Wilhemina that Eike must be sent to the Colleges, the other options are just too risky.
This actually implies letting Eike decide is going to be the most terrifying test Eike ever has to make, one where there is only a right answer for you, with very real consequences for your mind and soul. Something tells me Eike will retroactively think the past few days was Mathilde assessing Eike's suitability for the Colleges, a test Eike passed, and if she had failed... well the articles are clear, and I suspect if Mathilde tried, Eike could recite them within a week and give you a perfectly orthodox essay of why it is necessary in a month.
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The most significant I can think off was that time she talked to Panoramia about what it would be like to have gone to different colleges. But that's more about the restrictions the winds impose, rather then collages. And she seemed pretty content with her place too.
That would be a lot more relevant if Mathilde wasn't the richest wizard in K8Ps by a good margin. I mean, she's got a small fief, and very profitable business (the niter factory), and then there's the EIC. The first is enough to make her quite well off (50 gold/turn, which is roughly what a dwarf grandmaster makes (and she was also getting a grandmaster wage loremaster)), the second makes her quite wealthy (I recall it was 100/turn, but I didn't find it in the info threadmarks), and the third is yet again more (175/turn), before it's even gotten into the really profitable parts of it's business.
Honestly, I expect money will get dropped before too long, because she has enough that anything below "hire army" or "build town" doesn't impact her finances.