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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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[X] Plan Prepare for a Yorriing

I really think going for the basket is a mistake, both because it leaves us with no slack and the basket runes seem much less likely to make a significant difference to the commissions than the impact Wardstones could have to help Gazul's Cult hunt down Hashut's. The basket runes may give us a marginal improvement to Valaya's commission, or they may not, but there's a very clear mechanism by which Wardstones would help with Gazul's. Importantly, if we don't take wardstones now, it will be too late. The Gazulite's equipment will have been made and they'll have dispersed all over the frontiers of the Karaz Ankor, where it would be much harder to upgrade their equipment, and they'll be in competition with an enemy that can scry on them. This would be a major missed opportunity. By contrast, Valayans are much more likely to be accessible and able to upgrade their equipment if we later do research the basket, and the absence of those runes is much less likely to get them killed or cause them to fail their missions.
 
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[X] Plan Prepare for a Yorriing

I really think going for the basket is a mistake, both because it leaves us with no slack and the basket runes seem much less likely to make a significant difference to the commissions than the impact Wardstones could have to help Gazul's Cult hunt down Hashut's.

I think the notion that our commission will meaningfully impact the hunt for the cultists of Hashut is a little prideful. I mean yes they can be a bit better or a bit worse at a specific fight, but at the end of the day Hashut cults are going to be endemic to the Dawi for a long time to come, maybe forever. You don't hear of particularly well equipped witch hunters killing off all cultists of Khorne do you? I think we have to face the fact that Hashut speaks to the darker side of dawi nature and there will always be those to answer Him.
 
I think the notion that our commission will meaningfully impact the hunt for the cultists of Hashut is a little prideful. I mean yes they can be a bit better or a bit worse at a specific fight, but at the end of the day Hashut cults are going to be endemic to the Dawi for a long time to come, maybe forever. You don't hear of particularly well equipped witch hunters killing off all cultists of Khorne do you? I think we have to face the fact that Hashut speaks to the darker side of dawi nature and there will always be those to answer Him.

I think wardstones are an exception, because making them invisible to the Cultists of Hashut or their daemonic allies scrying them makes such a huge difference. If they can be scryed on it's vastly easier for the slaves of Hashut to run rings around them, because they'll always be able to stay one step ahead as they'll know where they are or what their plans are. Scrying is just such an incredible intelligence advantage when facing someone who can't defend against it.

This isn't a marginal difference in how well they perform in any specific fight, this is something that could legitimately strategically transformational to the entire campaign - just as the wardstones were instrumental in the Dum loyalists surviving. It denies the sorcerer-prophets one of their greatest advantages, the prophet bit.

One of the disadvantages that Witchhunters have is that they don't have usually such magical protection against daemons peeking over their shoulders (indeed, they very rarely have magical equipment at all).

This colonisation wave is also a critical opportunity for Hashut cultists to become endemic, to insert themselves into holds from their very foundation. That's why I think it's particularly important to give the Cult of Gazul every advantage we can give them at this crucial juncture. We don't need to catch every Hashut cultist, but we should hopefully be able to make a meaningful difference to their ability to operate.
 
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what happened to all the atopies and sun eaters brain now we are ordering a Corpse that we will never study
 
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I think wardstones are an exception, because making them invisible to the Cultists of Hashut or their daemonic allies scrying them makes such a huge difference. If they can be scryed on it's vastly easier for the slaves of Hashut to run rings around them, because they'll always be able to stay one step ahead as they'll know where they are or what their plans are. Scrying is just such an incredible intelligence advantage when facing someone who can't defend against it.

This isn't a marginal difference in how well they perform in any specific fight, this is something that could legitimately strategically transformational to the entire campaign - just as the wardstones were instrumental in the Dum loyalists surviving.

One of the disadvantages that Witchhunters have is that they don't have usually such magical protection against daemons peeking over their shoulders (indeed, they very rarely have magical equipment at all).
Ehhhh.
Having fifty odd unscryable guys probably isn't a big deal. We're arming the most senior members only after all.
For one it means that they can't cooporate with scryable guys or that advantage is negated.
For two, if the Hashut cultists know when and where/who to scry anyway, thats a problem in itself.
For three, they're doing this in anticipation of a wave of colonisation, so they're probably more concerned about trolls and the like regarding this specific commission.
 
This colonisation wave is also a critical opportunity for Hashut cultists to become endemic, to insert themselves into holds from their very foundation. That's why I think it's particularly important to give the Cult of Gazul every advantage we can give them at this crucial juncture. We don't need to catch every Hashut cultist, but we should hopefully be able to make a meaningful difference to their ability to operate.

Fair point about the timing.

[X] Plan Prepare for a Yorriing
[X] [Letters]: Knowledge about Avelorn's Magical Traditions
 
I think wardstones are an exception, because making them invisible to the Cultists of Hashut or their daemonic allies scrying them makes such a huge difference. If they can be scryed on it's vastly easier for the slaves of Hashut to run rings around them, because they'll always be able to stay one step ahead as they'll know where they are or what their plans are. Scrying is just such an incredible intelligence advantage when facing someone who can't defend against it.

This isn't a marginal difference in how well they perform in any specific fight, this is something that could legitimately strategically transformational to the entire campaign - just as the wardstones were instrumental in the Dum loyalists surviving.

One of the disadvantages that Witchhunters have is that they don't have usually such magical protection against daemons peeking over their shoulders (indeed, they very rarely have magical equipment at all).

This colonisation wave is also a critical opportunity for Hashut cultists to become endemic, to insert themselves into holds from their very foundation. That's why I think it's particularly important to give the Cult of Gazul every advantage we can give them at this crucial juncture. We don't need to catch every Hashut cultist, but we should hopefully be able to make a meaningful difference to their ability to operate.
But if the wardstones will make that much difference why wouldn't the cult just order some made? They are fully aware that they exist and what they do. If they think it's that important they can just order some, which they've either done from another runesmith or they don't think it's that vital.
 
But if the wardstones will make that much difference why wouldn't the cult just order some made? They are fully aware that they exist and what they do. If they think it's that important they can just order some, which they've either done from another runesmith or they don't think it's that vital.
They can't though. Everyone that knew how to make them is dead. We are one of the few that has a sample to reverse engineer.
 
Yes... but they could ask us to reverse engineer it.
Jreengus's question is basically: if anti scrying is so important, why hasn't that been brought up in the request?
Exactly, so they either specifically asked a different runelord to make them some antiscrying stuff or they don't view antiscrying as being particularly valuable. I lean toward the latter, the antiscrying wards were extremely useful in Dum by the nature of the situation scrying was pretty much the only way for the Dwai Zharr to track down the remaining loyalists. In the middle of actual holds Gazulites can't do anything to hide the fact they're there or investigating a certain person so all an antiscrying ward would do is draw attention to the fact that an elite inquisitor is present. I'd expect them to commission specific rooms to be scryblocked maybe but it seems like it would have negligible benefits to ward individuals.

This isn't even going into the fact that in order to gain access to scrying the cultists need to recruit runesmiths (A ridiculously difficult task outside of extreme circumstances) and then the runesmith can't do it freely without turning to stone which would be a pretty big cultist sect here sign for the Gazulites.
 
But if the wardstones will make that much difference why wouldn't the cult just order some made? They are fully aware that they exist and what they do. If they think it's that important they can just order some, which they've either done from another runesmith or they don't think it's that vital.

Scrying is a serious out of context problem for the dwarves. Apart from those who survived Dum or who heard, first hand, the stories about what it's like, probably just don't and can't get what a problem the intelligent, strategic use of magic by a patient, intelligent foe is.

And we don't want them to have to learn the hard way at the worst time.

Ehhhh.
Having fifty odd unscryable guys probably isn't a big deal. We're arming the most senior members only after all.
For one it means that they can't cooporate with scryable guys or that advantage is negated.
For two, if the Hashut cultists know when and where/who to scry anyway, thats a problem in itself.
For three, they're doing this in anticipation of a wave of colonisation, so they're probably more concerned about trolls and the like regarding this specific commission.

You don't need to know who to scry, you can just scry for an answer to a question or look for information from the future. Or you can just ask a daemon or god, who have limited omniscience.

Exactly, so they either specifically asked a different runelord to make them some antiscrying stuff or they don't view antiscrying as being particularly valuable. I lean toward the latter, the antiscrying wards were extremely useful in Dum by the nature of the situation scrying was pretty much the only way for the Dwai Zharr to track down the remaining loyalists. In the middle of actual holds Gazulites can't do anything to hide the fact they're there or investigating a certain person so all an antiscrying ward would do is draw attention to the fact that an elite inquisitor is present. I'd expect them to commission specific rooms to be scryblocked maybe but it seems like it would have negligible benefits to ward individuals.

This isn't even going into the fact that in order to gain access to scrying the cultists need to recruit runesmiths (A ridiculously difficult task outside of extreme circumstances) and then the runesmith can't do it freely without turning to stone which would be a pretty big cultist sect here sign for the Gazulites.

Why would they know that scrying was such a potential problem, or know about the value or potential of the wardstones?

It also takes many centuries for sorcerer prophets to turn to stone. It's not a quick process.

Sorcerer prophets don't have to be runesmiths from what I know. Regular dwarves can consort with daemons or perform the rituals to beckon them into the world.

Gazulite inquisitors are also probably wanderers like Rangers, and they very likely operate in secret when hunting down Cultists, given what we've seen of Gazul. I wouldn't expect them to publicise their movements at all. I would expect that warding individuals would have enormous benefits, as it would prevent Hashut's Cultists knowing that there was an inquisitor nearby, or what they were doing, and would prevent them from listening in when they communicated. Stationary rooms don't help whatsoever when the problem is that we need to police a wave of colonisation and new holds being founded. There won't be well established actual holds. There'll be lots of small settlements that may one day grow into holds that Gazulites will have to travel to and investigate to look for the Cultists of Hashut. Surprise actually should be one of the greatest weapons of the Gazulite Inquisition. Unless we do this, it's unlikely to be.
 
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You don't need to know who to scry, you can just scry for an answer or look for information from the future. Or you can just ask a daemon and god.
So you accept that my first and third points are valid?
Good to know, however how do we prevent the daemon or god just providing future or past information that reveals the Gazul cults plan from a time when they aren't wearing armour?
Is your solution just that the most senior members never take off the equipment?
 
[X] Plan Prepare for a Yorriing

I really think going for the basket is a mistake, both because it leaves us with no slack and the basket runes seem much less likely to make a significant difference to the commissions than the impact Wardstones could have to help Gazul's Cult hunt down Hashut's. The basket runes may give us a marginal improvement to Valaya's commission, or they may not, but there's a very clear mechanism by which Wardstones would help with Gazul's. Importantly, if we don't take wardstones now, it will be too late. The Gazulite's equipment will have been made and they'll have dispersed all over the frontiers of the Karaz Ankor, where it would be much harder to upgrade their equipment, and they'll be in competition with an enemy that can scry on them. This would be a major missed opportunity. By contrast, Valayans are much more likely to be accessible and able to upgrade their equipment if we later do research the basket, and the absence of those runes is much less likely to get them killed or cause them to fail their missions.

You know what, I'm convinced. I'll vote for this.
 
Exactly, so they either specifically asked a different runelord to make them some antiscrying stuff or they don't view antiscrying as being particularly valuable. I lean toward the latter, the antiscrying wards were extremely useful in Dum by the nature of the situation scrying was pretty much the only way for the Dwai Zharr to track down the remaining loyalists. In the middle of actual holds Gazulites can't do anything to hide the fact they're there or investigating a certain person so all an antiscrying ward would do is draw attention to the fact that an elite inquisitor is present. I'd expect them to commission specific rooms to be scryblocked maybe but it seems like it would have negligible benefits to ward individuals.

This isn't even going into the fact that in order to gain access to scrying the cultists need to recruit runesmiths (A ridiculously difficult task outside of extreme circumstances) and then the runesmith can't do it freely without turning to stone which would be a pretty big cultist sect here sign for the Gazulites.

Why would they know that scrying was such a potential problem, or know about the value or potential of the wardstones?

Sorcerer prophets don't have to be runesmiths from what I know. Regular dwarves can consort with daemons or perform the rituals to beckon them into the world.
So you accept that my first and third points are valid?
Good to know, however how do we prevent the daemon or god just providing future or past information that reveals the Gazul cults plan from a time when they aren't wearing armour?
Is your solution just that the most senior members never take off the equipment?

No. I don't, I just consider them less worth arguing against in detail as they're more obviously trivial - for example, the Cult of Gazul clearly aren't troll hunters by profession and it's very obvious that this won't be their focus.

And the most senior members of the organisation should indeed rarely take off anti-scrying talismans, or venture out of range of anti-scrying banners once they have access to them. That's what they've signed up for. We're not just making armour for the Gazulites, we're making equipment in general, which could well mean we put anti-scrying defences on banners that can protect a whole team of them at once.

If Igna hasn't reverse engineered it by Turn 45 I will eat my metaphorical shoe. The only reason she wouldn't have already is that she has been busy with the Karak!

Given that the Cult of Gazul would know how incredibly busy she is, would they have offered her this commissions, and would she have taken it up? I doubt she can devote the equivalent of twenty four years of work making items for them at the moment, on top of the decade required to research the Wardstones. That's assuming she even can reverse engineer the Wardstones that quickly. She doesn't have the talent for odd runes like this that Snorri does, which may well stack with his Journeyman of the Odd trait similarly to how it can when Understanding a Rune. This could easily be something like a base eight action project for her.
 
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[x] Plan Prepare for a Yorriing
- [x] Render Aid: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Gain reputation and +2 bonus per action to Recruitment Dice. You formed these Hearthguard to combat all the ills that befall the dwarfen people. Send them out, render aid, earn goodwill and spread the word of your retainers and their stated mission beyond the borders of Kraka Drakk. 2 Retainer Actions.
-- [x] Deep Surveying: Gain 30 Favour +? With Kraka Drakk.
-- [x] Elderly Expertise: Gain 40 Favour +? With Stormpeak.
- [x] [Simple] Armoured Maidens: [Cost: 12 actions] Due end of Turn 40. Productivity like No Other will proc. Gain 70 Favour and 1 Standing with the Cult of Valaya. The Clergy of Valaya are making plans to expand the Valkyrie Guard in preparation for what they believe is a coming wave of colonization across the Karaz Ankor in the future. Given your history with the Cult, they've come to you wondering if you had the inclination to create armour for some of the future Valkyrie Guard that will no doubt come from the endeavour. The number is not the sum total of suits, but ones specially made for their eldest and most veteran Matrons. The foundational core of the future Valkyrie Guard in these future-Holds. The Cult will hold the suits in their vaults until such a time they are needed. 4 Actions.
- [x] ORDER: Merwyrm Corpse
 
*Looks at our title* *Looks at our toys* *Looks at our prosthetics*

So maybe just give them a bunch whenever we figure out how to make it?

As was mentioned, something that protects against scrying works best as either a personal talisman or a banner/rock. Nobody wears their armor 24/7.

So... Just give the cult a bunch of those when we figure it out?
 
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