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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Retrueno said:
It makes sense. Though it doesn't explain why Dum appeared before us instead of before them.
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In my mind the sequence would go:
1) Arrive
2) Cor-Dum looks upon you with judgement, and calls forth his hordes
3) Cor-Dum wanders off while you fight the hordes
4) Cor-Dum comes back to see if you're still there and worth fighting
 
[X] ACTION: Turn back
[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
 
ctulhuslp said:
If Magnus the Great was using same kind of logic that cares about personal reputation above all, Mathilde would have burned on the fire.

She is only alive because somebody did a right thing..
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And Magnus did so after standing on the sacred fire of Ulric and not being burnt.
We are not Magnus, and the god we are tight with is not going to work as a character witness here.
Katahiraga said:
Its a future idea, after this episode, and if Gazul proclaims them innocent and deserving to live then, it will help alleviate prejudice and political backlash, in fact it may even make carrying out justice easier on criminals. The other dwarves will have no choice but to accept them or they will be contradicting Gazul.
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Right, so useless for here and now, and nobody is going to make the month long treck to chaos wastes to save some beastman servants.
The problems still exist, we try to make friends, we are likely to have a civil war.
 
Ithuriel said:
The structure for a Dum tower isn't present though. It's all a moot point anyways because we don't have a crew capable of building one and I don't think it would be possible to get one unless we 100% funded our own expedition with Runelords and Wizard Lords.
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Future issue, and it will get the conservative dwarves to cooperate by leaving judging to their God.
 
DragonParadox said:
OK I have to ask, why are we supposed to put our reputation on the line for these doomed weirdos at the edge of the world? There is no way to maintain constant communication and the Chaos Wastes will wear them down anyway, We can just declare them chaos and walk away secure in the knowledge that no on is ever going to gainsay it and be believed. What is a Daemon of Tzeench going to show up in twenty years and explain in complex detail how they weren't exactly Chaos? The only useful thing they can have for us are:
  1. Artifacts which we can claim we stole from the evil chaos dwarfs
  2. Lore which we can sneak in and sanitize like we did the Liber Mortis
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potentially and depending on the scenario? here's the gains

3: A somewhat reliable way to actually destroy memetic corruption (this is huge for civilization, even if puritans cannot appreciate it, it gives order a very strong fighting chance even if it gets confined to dwarven guild secrets)
4: Securing the safety of one of the Dwarven lifelines
5: Securing the removal of a demigod from the game board
6: Securing Mathilde's conciense (she cares for such things. She may ultimately act ultiritarian, but she felt sorrow for every single orc she killed in the Calderra, and the rat mothers, and she genuinely seems to want to avoid killing Qurech even if he is evil)


Valmond said:
And Magnus did so after standing on the sacred fire of Ulric and not being burnt.
We are not Magnus, and the god we are tight with is not going to work as a character witness here.
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We actually do have Gazul on our back too, based on her experience with the tower. Dwarven gods back us to the dawi, the dawi back us to humans.
 
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[x] THEORY: The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum.
[x] ACTION: Turn back

I'm so confused about what's going on.
 
storryeater said:
We actually do have Gazul on our back too, based on her experience with the tower. Dwarven gods back us to the dawi, the dawi back us to humans.
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No we do not, not the way Magnus had Ulric, and not in a way that will let us convince people that a group of dwarves living in chaos wastes for centuries and allied with beastman demigod are totes cool.
 
[x] [x] ACTION: Project a message in the air with magic asking for a Parley.
[x] Actions: Study
[x] THEORY: The burning of Dhar or purifying it by whatever process Karag Dum has makes the temperature higher, could potentially be the reason why the desert exist.
[x] THEORY: The Beastmen and Morghur are illusions and runic trickery, The only evidence is that Morghur is not acting like his/her normal self, for instance, he/she is nonhostile, did not radiate chaos and Dhar aura, Borek is not mutated despite, Morghur supposed possesses a chaotic aura that can easily mutate, people. Morghur did not act hostile and aggressive enouch, he/she looks sane, he/she did not attack Borek, did not mutate the ground with he/she area of effect aura.
[x] [x] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[x] [x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[x] [x] ACTION: Demand the Runesmith in the Morghur Fursuit presents Borek so you can scream at him for not mentioning he was taking you to the Capital of Dwarven Illusion Craft. You would have brought more ink and paper.
[x] [X] THEORY: There's some sort of strange illusion magic going on, and it's not visible even to extremely good mage sight. Out of all known sources of magic only Dawi Runes are capable of that - so the works of Dawi Runesmiths are still in use.
[x] ACTION: Project a message in the air: What the fuck Borek (but more politely worded.)
[x] ACTION: Project a message in the air: What the fuck Borek (but more politely word.)
[x] ACTION: Project a message in the air with magic asking for a Parley.
[x] Theory: Borek needs to be punched in the face
[x] Action: Go up to the edge of the ring and shout out a demand that Borek come out and meet you or prove himself a traitor and a coward.
[x] THEORY: I. Don't. Know. What. The. Fuck. Is. Going. On.
[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur does not not attack people, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[x] THEORY: Morghur was reborn as a dwarf and at least partially protected by the Valayan rites, subsequently those protections were relaxed to allow him to mutate physically while retaining self-control and his dwarven identity.
[x] ACTION: Persuade the Expedition to stay put for a day while you sneak to the gates of the Karak and try to have a chat about it.
[x] THEORY: There's some sort of strange illusion magic going on, and it's not visible even to extremely good mage sight. Out of all known sources of magic only Dawi Runes are capable of that - so the works of Dawi Runesmiths are still in use.
[x] THEORY: That's not Morghur. Morghur constantly changes his surroundings, Morghur does not make reality more stable near himself, Morghur does not display affection, Morghur would never stay here unless he was bound, and if he was bound he'd be struggling constantly to get out. The shuddering of reality can be faked by Runesmiths if they wanted.
[x] ACTION: Demand the Runesmith in the Morghur Fursuit presents Borek so you can scream at him for not mentioning he was taking you to the Capital of Dwarven Illusion Craft. You would have brought more ink and paper.
[x] THEORY: Mathilde is confused. Greys can admit to themselves that they're confused. Just don't show it.
[x] THEORY: This could be a Rune-based Illusion with "Morghur" being a Runemaster. The Dawi of Karag Dum let the forces of Chaos assume that Dum has fallen and is surrounded by Beastmen forces so they don't all unite to attack the Hold together and instead only come in smaller groups to "test" themselves against another chaotic force.
[x] THEORY: Things are not what they appear as at the first look. Nothing Mathilde knows allows for what they are witnessing to be the reality.
 
Omegahugger said:
1. Mathilde staked her reputation on making an alliance with a colony of maneating spiders because it was the right thing to do, how on Earth is not accusing innocent dwarves of being literal Chaos worshippers any different?
2. It only has to happen once for news of "Hey turns out there weren't actually bad and we've abandoned allies to literal fates worse than death" to haappen. And you know how reasonable the dwarves would take such news.
3. And Mathilde is a Grey Wizard, she knows full well that "apparently" isn't even close to any kind of certainty. If we had displayed this kind of phorensic vigor just a few months ago, the Karaz Ankor would've declared an eternal grudge on Marienburg.
4. We're from Stirland, it is a well known fact that dead things don't neccesarily stay dead. Even without Chaos shenanigans, there are many ways for a routed Karag Dum to come back to bite us. Not the least being an unleashed Morghur.
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1. The We were a newly discovered entity with no histories. Cor-Dum and beastmen have a long history, and the grudges and traditional enmity to match. That said, I agree that we shouldn't accuse them of worshipping Chaos. Honestly, the leading theory vote encapsulates what I want to say pretty much exactly.
2. Borek did not expect the Karaz Ankor to forgive KD.
3. There's undoubtedly more going on here. I just really don't see how we can convince anybody else that finding out is worth the risk. A new threat in the Chaos Wastes? That's Tuesday.
 
consequences said:
We're still at the 'seeing if there is anyone to save, or if this witch hunting hat is about to see a return to its roots' stage
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If there was any chance to save someone Borek would have taken it rather than abandon the expedition. Anyone left in Karag Dum is part of whatever this is.
Lupercal said:
THat information will be essential to preparing any potential counter-measures and guiding stategic planing. For example if that *is* the "real" Morghor then that means that he is unlikely to reappear in the Old World and forces don't need to worry about him attacking their homefronts
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Katahiraga said:
Intelligence gathering, assessing potential threats and allies,
Assessing on how it will impact Karag Vlag, the Karag we just saved, the Karag distributing energy to the high king Dwarf.
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The threat assessment is "ignore it like everything else this deep in the wastes." In order to impact Vlag, Dum would have to fight past the skaven, chaos dwarfs and kurgan, all of whom are closer and more dangerous. If Dum was capable of projecting power out that far they would have done so in the past centuries, rather than just being under siege.



wrecksalot said:
I disagree with the notion that our job here is done, if knowing that Dum might have fallen to chaos was sufficient, we should've just declared the expedition a success before we even left.
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We know conclusively that Dum is lost to the Karaz Ankor and that there are no holdouts to rescue. This is the same situation as if we found it uninhabited, or overrun by chaos/orks/whatever. We've succeeded, but success can be bitter.
 
As it's been four pages in an hour and I haven't gotten any response to my suggestion on a theory vote, I hope it's okay if I repost it with a bit more explanation:

[ ] THEORY: Based on Guild and Dwarf secrets we can tell that Karag Dum is slowing the spread of the Chaos Wastes.

Why does this matter:

1) If we leave without investigating further it matters because it will lessen any grudges made. Making it far less important to come back and kill them all. Given how suicidal doing so would be I'm sure that plenty of Slayers will try if they seem to be a priority target due to the weight of the grudge.

2) If we stay it'll massively decrease the level to which the other members of the expedition disapprove. Finding out details about a group that are holding back Chaos by using unacceptable means is a lot more palatable than sticking around to stare at chaos dwarves.

3) If we end up finding out that there are non-corrupt dwarves who can provide aid it'll be a point in favour of listening to them - we're already being aided by the fact they're holding off Chaos, accepting more aid to fight Chaos is understandable if not desirable.

How do we know it's true:

They have an active waystone. To members of the colleges the well-known purpose of waystones is to route the energies of magic into a mystic vortex that prevents the unreality of the Chaos Wastes overtaking the whole globe. We know that waystones have other purposes, but looking around us and seeing that reality is more stable here proves that that purpose - preventing the spread of the wastes - is still actually true even if there's more to it than that.
 
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