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Joerg wanted to leave when it looked like we wouldn't be able to carry enough food with much less reluctance than Ruprecht.

That's true, and I did overlook that. Still, that was a logistics issue, which is different from "an enemy of god is right there". That said, I'm more hopeful for a rational response now.

Too be fair, we might not need to fight, the dwarves of Dum don't seem hostile, Mathilde's only task is to find out whats going on in Karag Dum and steal the chaotic cup, all of which requires no army.

I think a devout Taalite is going to find it hard to believe that the beastmen are peaceful no matter what we claim, and would likely assume it's a trick or an ambush.
 
No we didn't, we haven't met a Karag Dum dwarf yet, we have clues that this Karag is not a lost cause.
We have clues that the dwarves are not serving chaos, that is not the same not being a lost cause.
We are unlikely to convince others that the Karag is not lost cause, we are not going to do so to anyone back home.
Dum is lost. We can't support them, we can't afford to accept aid from them, we have nothing to offer them in aid.
Karag Dum is lost, may the Ancestors forgive them.

If we manage to demonstrate that they're saveable why would people who can see with their own eyes what's actually happening be incapable of accepting it?
Because Chaos. Because Chaos Wastes. Because Religion, culture and a lifetime of propaganda.
Because the dwarves have are working with a demigod of chaos, and from Boreks reaction, are unlikely to feel talkative of willing to explain what or why they have done what they did, and Karaz Ankor is just as unlikely to accept it.
 
I'm arguing that if it turns out they're not corrupted our return journey will be safer.

Staying here is currently perfectly safe. We're not on a meaningful time limit and we're not under attack. Investigating could prove dangerous, but I feel like the chance of getting valuable aid is worth the risk that investigating might result in some scouts getting killed.
It's not safe though. Mathilde May have her anti-Dhar belt but we are still in the wastes. Everybody else has to deal with Dhar radiation and that's not counting all the external threats around.
 
We could get attacked any time the beastman get sick of waiting.
Beastmen charging over an open desert after their leader has clearly decided to leave us alone and when they have other fights, seems unlikely.

EDIT: Also, sounds almost completely non-threatening to our forces. Charging uphill across sand into cannon-fire is a recipe for chunky salsa.

Or if any Kurgan show up and see the Dwarves currently walking around outside the Steamships.
The Kurgan split the fronts. This front is currently occupied, so more forces will not be coming here.
 
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Having Tower of death Gazul judge the dwarves may alleviate the situation of Karag Dum, if the God of the dwarves say that he/she is innocent, then the dwarves must believe the Gazul, it will solve everything, as soon as the tower is built, and not reliant on Ulgu, since, there are Ulgu users here.
 
Altered and new data point:
- Morghur did not attack Borek, instead greeting him with what to Dwarves is a very intimate gesture.
- There is less ambient Dhar here than other parts of the Chaos Wastes Mathilde has seen, though still more than outside of it.



It's possible.
You know how people were wondering whether we could in theory become an OP necromancer because of our runes of anti-corruption by Dhar? and Boney hinted darkly that using a rune that invoked an ancestor god (valaya) for nefarious ends could have interesting results. I wonder what the implications are related to that here. A combination of Morghur being bound to Dum using (possibly greatly modified versions of) ancestor runes is a case where the dwarfs of Dum have done something incurring great shame by dwarf standards but haven't actually turned evil.
 
Having slept on it, I feel we're presumeing too much of a flawless victory. Like they just converted a Demon Prince, turned the mountain into a dhar purifier, and converted beastmen into a dwarven war gang.

There has to be a complication. There is no way its just "hooray! Demon Prince converted"
Yeah, I feel like people are leaning to hard into theories where basically everything is fine except that the longbeards will be grumbling. And the likely cause for that is that that's what all of us (myself very much included) would want to have had happened. There are some data points indicating that this may not be as bad as it first seemed, but it first seemed like we were all about to get killed by a beastman demigod. There's a lot of space for it to be better without being good.
 
We could get attacked any time the beastman get sick of waiting.
Or if any Kurgan show up and see the Dwarves currently walking around outside the Steamships.

Even waiting isn't safe.

It's the deep Chaos Wastes. The notion that safe exists in the land of biting houses is farcical. The safest thing we could do is turn around right now, since we are half way down the gullet of Chaos. Safety is southwards and nowhere else.
 
There is a way to prove that the dwarves of Dum is not a lost cause, build a tower that does not use Ulgu (enemy chaos magic users use Dhar and Ulgu) and have them submit to the eye of Gazul to be judged, or whatever Gods dwarves worship. if they pass, they are not corrupt and they live.
You can't be serious.
Just build an eye of gazul, in the middle of chaos wastes, with no power stones, no runelords, no using ulgu, in the next four weeks before we run out of food.

Please tell me you are just doing a Omegahugger but with saving Dum instead of necromancing some dead dude.
 
We could get attacked any time the beastman get sick of waiting.
Or if any Kurgan show up and see the Dwarves currently walking around outside the Steamships.

Even waiting isn't safe.

There's actually supposed to be two kurgan tribes, the Kul and the Kvellige, assaulting Dum at this moment. The latter are kind of concerning, because they are supposed to be on the far side of Yussak territory, whilst the former are, well, the Kul, aka the tribe the last Everchosen came from.
 
  1. I don't think it fits Mathilde's characterization to care enough about the right thing here to put her reputation and her life on the line
  2. It's really really not, this is the Deep Chaos Wastes, what are they going to do hire Deathwing every time they do a supply run? Even dwarfs aren't that rich.
  3. The job he sent us to do is to find out what state Dun was in, the state is 'apparently meddling with Chaos'. As seen by the reaction of our fellow expedition members that is more than cause enough to turn back.
  4. That's not a reason, just a statement of fact that has not been proven
  5. See point one
1. Mathilde staked her reputation on making an alliance with a colony of maneating spiders because it was the right thing to do, how on Earth is not accusing innocent dwarves of being literal Chaos worshippers any different?
2. It only has to happen once for news of "Hey turns out there weren't actually bad and we've abandoned allies to literal fates worse than death" to haappen. And you know how reasonable the dwarves would take such news.
3. And Mathilde is a Grey Wizard, she knows full well that "apparently" isn't even close to any kind of certainty. If we had displayed this kind of phorensic vigor just a few months ago, the Karaz Ankor would've declared an eternal grudge on Marienburg.
4. We're from Stirland, it is a well known fact that dead things don't neccesarily stay dead. Even without Chaos shenanigans, there are many ways for a routed Karag Dum to come back to bite us. Not the least being an unleashed Morghur.
 
We could get attacked any time the beastman get sick of waiting.
Or if any Kurgan show up and see the Dwarves currently walking around outside the Steamships.

Even waiting isn't safe.
Beastmen charging over an open desert after their leader has clearly decided to leave us alone and when they have other fights, seems unlikely.


The Kurgan split the fronts. This front is currently occupied, so more forces will not be coming here.
To build on what kingreaper said. Its not even confirmed that the silhoetes we saw in the tree line are actually beastmen. BoneyM was very cagey about giving a clearer answer then "you saw silhoetes that looked like beyond the tree line".
 
If Magnus the Great was using same kind of logic that cares about personal reputation above all, Mathilde would have burned on the fire.

She is only alive because somebody did a right thing..
 
You can't be serious.
Just build an eye of gazul, in the middle of chaos wastes, with no power stones, no runelords, no using ulgu, in the next four weeks before we run out of food.

Please tell me you are just doing a Omegahugger but with saving Dum instead of necromancing some dead dude.


Its a future idea, after this episode, and if Gazul proclaims them innocent and deserving to live then, it will help alleviate prejudice and political backlash, in fact it may even make carrying out justice easier on criminals. The other dwarves will have no choice but to accept them or they will be contradicting Gazul.
 
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1. Mathilde staked her reputation on making an alliance with a colony of maneating spiders because it was the right thing to do, how on Earth is not accusing innocent dwarves of being literal Chaos worshippers any different?
2. It only has to happen once for news of "Hey turns out there weren't actually bad and we've abandoned allies to literal fates worse than death" to haappen. And you know how reasonable the dwarves would take such news.
3. And Mathilde is a Grey Wizard, she knows full well that "apparently" isn't even close to any kind of certainty. If we had displayed this kind of phorensic vigor just a few months ago, the Karaz Ankor would've declared an eternal grudge on Marienburg.
4. We're from Stirland, it is a well known fact that dead things don't neccesarily stay dead. Even without Chaos shenanigans, there are many ways for a routed Karag Dum to come back to bite us. Not the least being an unleashed Morghur.
  1. No one would kill us for spider associations, the comparison is fatally flawed. Giant spiders are known to be dangerous, Chaos is known to be pure memetic evil.
  2. Please explain which messenger could deliver that news from the Chaos Wastes and be believed.
  3. Why the hell do we care? This place is in the Wastes, it cannot be reinforced and from Borek's reaction will not be evacuated. Everyone here will die unknown to the south.
  4. This just feels a little silly now, ominous implications asside please explain how a undead Karak Dun would happen and hurt us.
 
Mathilde can't build such a tower and that would take months to do. Months where we were stuck either in the Chaos Wastes or in the Karak with dwarfs of dubious purity.
Boney said that it would take us a week to make something like a tower of burning shadows, assuming the structure was already present.
Edit: found it
If you had at least a couple of weeks to do so, you could take a swing at it.
 
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Its a future idea, after this episode, and if Gazul proclaims them innocent and deserving to live then, it will help alleviate prejudice and political backlash, in fact it may even make carrying out justice easier on criminals.
Hmmm, if we could get one of their Rune Masters to come with us and be tested in K8P it might even be possible.

EDIT: Although I wouldn't use it to judge regular criminals. Judging the representative of a dwarfhold is one thing, but you don't pester a god because you're not sure if someone stole an axe.
 
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Its a future idea, after this episode, and if Gazul proclaims them innocent and deserving to live then, it will help alleviate prejudice and political backlash, in fact it may even make carrying out justice easier on criminals.
Realistically there will never be another expedition to Dum. It is too far and the results of this expedition are nowhere near promising enough to have another launched.
 
I like how the vote has gone. It's incredible cool to see smart people taking a crack at this riddle.

If Magnus the Great was using same kind of logic that cares about personal reputation above all, Mathilde would have burned on the fire.

She is only alive because somebody did a right thing..

That's true but irrelevant if Magnus tried to say Morghur is actually on ourside now he would have been denounced by everyone. We arent magnus we dont have an equivalent reputation not even with the dwarves and Karak Dum dwarves are not wizards.

More comperable would be Magnus say daemonologist wizards can be trusted. How do you think that would go?

At least the illusion idea if true would plausibly give a way to make the evry one wins path possible.
 
Boney said that it would take us a week to make something like a tower of burning shadows, assuming the structure was already present. (i'm looking for the post)
The structure for a Dum tower isn't present though. It's all a moot point anyways because we don't have a crew capable of building one and I don't think it would be possible to get one unless we 100% funded our own expedition with Runelords and Wizard Lords.
 
It doesn't even have to be Gazul doing the judging, have the Gods of the knightly order or even Sigma do the judging or any order God.
 
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