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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Valmond said:
No we do not, not the way Magnus had Ulric, and not in a way that will let us convince people that a group of dwarves living in chaos wastes for centuries and allied with beastman demigod are totes cool.
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Enough for Dawi to bat for us. Dawi ain;t humans. When they trust someone, they are kind of over the top about it and need extraordinary evidence to overturn it. Need I remind you how many spurns needed to happen for the war of the beard to happen? It was undwarvenlike to even sent an ambassador back.

And the only thing that will stop the Dawi for batting for us is us genuinely breaking our oaths, which we actually arent doing yet, or us lying/cheating them, which is what delivering them an incomplete report would be.

Us reclaiming 2 Karaks (and that is how it is gonna go down reputationally after Vlag, it wouldn't before , but now we are the common factor) is, for the Dawi, as important as anything Magnus did, and barring us breaking an oath or an ancestor god downright showing us dissaproval, it will make them trust us more than any human bar Sigmar in person.
 
storryeater said:
potentially and depending on the scenario? here's the gains

3: A somewhat reliable way to actually destroy memetic corruption (this is huge for civilization, even if puritans cannot appreciate it, it gives order a very strong fighting chance even if it gets confined to dwarven guild secrets)
4: Securing the safety of one of the Dwarven lifelines
5: Securing the removal of a demigod from the game board
6: Securing Mathilde's conciense (she cares for such things. She may ultimately act ultiritarian, but she felt sorrow for every single orc she killed in the Calderra, and the rat mothers, and she genuinely seems to want to avoid killing Qurech even if he is evil)
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  1. We have no idea what they used, how much blasphemy they committed or how reliable it is. Judging from every other attempt to harness Chaos I'm going to say it's most likely a poisoned gift. Even if it is not it could very well destroy us to try to spread it since it is based on runecraft and other runesmiths will likely be of the 'kill it with fire' opinion.
  2. We know nothing about the Runes of Valaya IC
  3. We bearely know anything about Morghur and hardly even saw beastmen until this point, thus removing him is not going to be much of a driving motivation for her. She is not Astrai or even Bretonian
  4. We felt for the orcs because the Eye made us look into the eye of each one as we killed them and for Querch because we know him. This is the opposite, out of sight out of mind
 
kingreaper said:
As it's been four pages in an hour and I haven't gotten any response to my suggestion on a theory vote, I hope it's okay if I repost it with a bit more explanation:

[ ] THEORY: Based on Guild and Dwarf secrets we can tell that Karag Dum is slowing the spread of the Chaos Wastes.

Why does this matter:

1) If we leave without investigating further it matters because it will lessen any grudges made. Making it far less important to come back and kill them all.

2) If we stay it'll massively decrease the level to which the other members of the expedition disapprove. Finding out details about a group that are holding back Chaos by using unacceptable means is a lot more palatable than sticking around to stare at chaos dwarves.

3) If we end up finding out that there are non-corrupt dwarves who can provide aid it'll be a point in favour of listening to them - we're already being aided by the fact they're holding off Chaos, accepting more aid to fight Chaos is understandable if not desirable.

How do we know it's true:

They have an active waystone. To members of the colleges the well-known purpose of waystones is to route the energies of magic into a mystic vortex that prevents the unreality of the Chaos Wastes overtaking the whole globe. We know that waystones have other purposes, but looking around us and seeing that reality is more stable here proves that that purpose - preventing the spread of the wastes - is still actually true even if there's more to it than that.
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I mean, okay. But it only explains one observation, that the ambient Dhar levels are lower. It doesn't do anything to explain anything else, the most important of which being Cor-Dum.
 
ReImagined said:
I mean, okay. But it only explains one observation, that the ambient Dhar levels are lower. It doesn't do anything to explain anything else, the most important of which being Cor-Dum.
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And we will present multiple theories. It's a short piece of information that I feel is vital to give, rather than an attempt to explain everything.
 
vsh said:
I think that gods may lend a hand for this exact situation. It looks big enough to warrant a portent.
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Well order gods are the sum and total of their worshipers opinions. Given what the general opinion of the Old Wold on meddling with Chaos is I'm going to guess the portent is 'kill it with fire' from any god you would care to listen to. :V
 
storryeater said:
Enough for Dawi to bat for us. Dawi ain;t humans. When they trust someone, they are kind of over the top about it and need extraordinary evidence to overturn it. Need I remind you how many spurns needed to happen for the war of the beard to happen? It was undwarvenlike to even sent an ambassador back.

And the only thing that will stop the Dawi for batting for us is us genuinely breaking our oaths, which we actually arent doing yet, or us lying/cheating them, which is what delivering them an incomplete report would be.

Us reclaiming 2 Karaks (and that is how it is gonna go down reputationally after Vlag, it wouldn't before , but now we are the common factor) is, for the Dawi, as important as anything Magnus did, and barring us breaking an oath or an ancestor god downright showing us dissaproval, it will make them trust us more than any human bar Sigmar in person.
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I think you are seriously over estimating how important we are to the Dawi, or how significant being allowed to use Eye of Gazul is.
More likely we crash and burn our rep and lot of dawi go slayer over it if we try to bring Dum back to Karaz Ankor.
 
Klaus said:
We know conclusively that Dum is lost to the Karaz Ankor and that there are no holdouts to rescue. This is the same situation as if we found it uninhabited, or overrun by chaos/orks/whatever. We've succeeded, but success can be bitter.
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No we don't, we know Borek was sad about whatever it is, but Belegar was sad about using rangers, so that isn't conclusive proof of anything. The waystone is still sending power to the karaz ankor, clearly Dum still considers themselves a part of it. This looks bad, but we should look into it further before we write them off for dead or worse. This is clearly different from whena hold is overrun by orks or whatever, the Golden age Runework still considers the hold as standing otherwise it would have turned the waystone off.
 
Valmond said:
I think you are seriously over estimating how important we are to the Dawi, or how significant being allowed to use Eye of Gazul is.
More likely we crash and burn our rep and lot of dawi go slayer over it if we try to bring Dum back to Karaz Ankor.
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And the list of slayers would start with Belegar. Maybe we should care more about our friends over the beastmen-fraternizers over yonder. Just a thought.
 
We need to investigate properly, not take the easy way out, anything less will be cheating the dwarves that trusted in Mathilde's abilities as loremaster.
 
If it is even theoretically possible for Dum to poison the waystone network it still doesn't matter who is in charge there because the reaction is always the same: set people to monitoring the flow into Vlag and detonate and intervening waystone if things look weird. This is the reaction even in the most optimistic theories because even if Dum is not corrupt there is absolutely no certainty or trust that they won't become corrupt, so the precautions need to be taken anyway.
 
Valmond said:
I think you are seriously over estimating how important we are to the Dawi, or how significant being allowed to use Eye of Gazul is.
More likely we crash and burn our rep and lot of dawi go slayer over it if we try to bring Dum back to Karaz Ankor.
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If that's impossible, which isn't unlikely, it's not like the Empire or Colleges can't still deal with them. After all, they deal with HElves to some extent, and Dwarfs seem relatively cool with it.
 
ReImagined said:
I was thinking we'd be presenting multiple largely comprehensive theories, not component by component.
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Take a look at the top voted theories, none of them are comprehensive.

"The specifics are hazy, but this is a known contingency plan that Borek is entirely aware of, but hoped hadn't been enacted. The result breaks all Dawi notions of acceptability, but Karak Dum survives in some capacity and continues to inflict attrition on every local and visiting Chaos force that want to take a swing at them, so it is considered a lesser evil by the pragmatic Karak Dum. "

Explains nothing about dhar levels, the desert, the forest, the beastmen or Morghur.

"The Dwarves of Karag Dum did something to burn away the taint of Chaos, much as your Belt of the Unshackled Mountain does, but on a far grander scale. Perhaps it had an effect on the Beastmen here, Cor-Dum included. "
Explains pretty much everything except Borek's behaviour and the lowered Wind levels, but only in a very vague and speculative manner.

" Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes. "

Explains one thing in a highly speculative manner.

Whatever the intent was, we've not got a good comprehensive theory. The Rune of Valaya's Vengeance is the most comprehensive of them.

So I'd like to add the
[ ] THEORY: Based on Guild and Dwarf secrets we can tell that Karag Dum is slowing the spread of the Chaos Wastes.
vote that actually covers why the winds are lessened and reality strengthened.
 
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tapkomet said:
If that's impossible, which isn't unlikely, it's not like the Empire or Colleges can't still deal with them. After all, they deal with HElves to some extent, and Dwarfs seem relatively cool with it.
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The high elves and dwarfs are at peace. The hatred the dwarfs feel for the elves is less than the hatred for the rest of their foes.
 
Katahiraga said:
We need to investigate properly, not take the easy way out, anything less will be cheating the dwarves that trusted in Mathilde's abilities as loremaster.
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We need to get word back to what has happened and protect our people, staying here grasping straws to assuage our guilt about "abandoning" Karag Dum is betraying our duty to the expedition, K8P, the Empire and the Grey Order.
 
DragonParadox said:
  1. We have no idea what they used, how much blasphemy they committed or how reliable it is. Judging from every other attempt to harness Chaos I'm going to say it's most likely a poisoned gift. Even if it is not it could very well destroy us to try to spread it since it is based on runecraft and other runesmiths will likely be of the 'kill it with fire' opinion.
  2. We know nothing about the Runes of Valaya IC
  3. We bearely know anything about Morghur and hardly even saw beastmen until this point, thus removing him is not going to be much of a driving motivation for her. She is not Astrai or even Bretonian
  4. We felt for the orcs because the Eye made us look into the eye of each one as we killed them and for Querch because we know him. This is the opposite, out of sight out of mind
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1: I am talking about potential gains (what we can hope to gain) not definite gains. You can jot everything down as a maybe anyway, because we may gain nothing anyway, I was answering on possible gains and your own phrasing implies said gains are possible.
2: We know they are very useful for something, and have enough IC hints to piece that together, at least. A Waystone network secured is a good thing and a lifeline even if we know naught of its purpose too according to Mathilde's knowledge
3: We know he is a chaos demigod, this is enough for everyone nonchaos aligned in the world, from the virtuous to the vile.
4: Yeah, looking at the eye is far worse for Mathilde, but she feels enough for innocents even without doing that, see, how she was utterly terrified of

DragonParadox said:
Well order gods are the sum and total of their worshipers opinions. Given what the general opinion of the Old Wold on meddling with Chaos is I'm going to guess the portent is 'kill it with fire' from any god you would care to listen to. :V
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Well, that is one theory, and one that can be strongly contested, at that. The sum total of worshippers would certainly think Magnus would be burnt alive, for example, or that Sigmar would have healed Van Hal.

Valmond said:
I think you are seriously over estimating how important we are to the Dawi, or how significant being allowed to use Eye of Gazul is.
More likely we crash and burn our rep and lot of dawi go slayer over it if we try to bring Dum back to Karaz Ankor.
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... We were literally named Dawi because they could not accept us being a human. They haven't done that for Sigmar. And they certainly haven't done that for pre war of the beard elgi, who they trusted enough to politely ask for explanations twice, even after being rudely dismissed, for genuine Dwarven deaths, they had to shave the beard to make them tip.

Edit: plus, we'll simply communicate the truth, not necessarilly take a stance.
 
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tapkomet said:
In that same vein I could say that Dum Dwarfs did not kill or have any Dwarfs, and consequently the level of grudge for HElves is incomparably greater. Have you any actual evidence of what is greater?
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We did get some statements from BoneyM that if Mathilde were to take Oaths of Gazul and then shared those secrets we'd be the first priority on the Grudge List. @picklepikkl do you remember where? :p
 
tapkomet said:
If that's impossible, which isn't unlikely, it's not like the Empire or Colleges can't still deal with them. After all, they deal with HElves to some extent, and Dwarfs seem relatively cool with it.
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Empire will be on the front row to kill anyone openly dealing with Karag Dum, empire hates Beastmen.
No, Dum is gone, the fact that it is almost impossible to reach is now a defense against forces of order that would be duty bound to destroy it.
 
storryeater said:
... We were literally named Dawi because they could not accept us being a human. They haven't done that for Sigmar. And they certainly haven't done that for pre war of the beard elgi, who they trusted enough to politely ask for explanations twice, even after being rudely dismissed, for genuine Dwarven deaths, they had to shave the beard to make them tip.

Edit: plus, we'll simply communicate the truth, not necessarilly take a stance.
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Dawi Zhar are a thing, let's not join them.
Communicating the "truth" is taking a stance in this case.
 
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