Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[ReImagined]

Its not *just* curiosity. Understanding what has happened here is incredibly important from a strategic perspective. A knee-jerk reaction if fine in general but we need to know what happened her so we can make proper reports. THat information will be essential to preparing any potential counter-measures and guiding stategic planing. For example if that *is* the "real" Morghor then that means that he is unlikely to reappear in the Old World and forces don't need to worry about him attacking their homefronts.

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Wether a potential threat will remain weeks away from Kislev is very important, because if it is here for the Long haul, then we don't have to worry about it rampaging through the empire, and the Chaos Dwarves have had huge negative effects on the old world in spite of being a few weeks north of Kislev, so seeing what we're dealing with is imperative.

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If this is a threat, then this is just one more threat in the Chaos Wastes among an uncountably large number of threats. There is no added strategic value because the area in question already experiences attacks by Chaos Incursions and Everchosens.

Mathilde is the Eight Peaks Loremaster. We should try to find out what's going on so we can properly assess if we need to level any grudges against Borek and Dum for his potential trickery.

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Risking lives to determine grudges is one part of dwarven culture I do not want Mathilde to adapt.

 

[GrimTheMad]

It's right in the update.

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I don't know what happened, but it's not actually possible to be carrying 4 weeks of food with none of it being living cows. The entire problem was that with the destruction of the mothership the convoy could only carry 2 weeks max.

 

[LilyWitch]

Leaving is not a knee jerk reaction, it is a measured response to a very dangerous situation. Unless any of the dwarfs come out to explain things, we are not going to get any solid answers. Personally, I think that our best option for information gathering is not wandering around in the wastes but returning home and consulting experts on what the hell could be happening, and developing a more informed hypothesis. Trying to get information out of the tribes on the way back would also be helpful.

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We already know that the local tribes think this is the normal state of afares. I believe that sneaking past their guarddemigod and spying on/talking to the people inside is our best shot at finding answers.

 

[Katahiraga]

If this is a threat, then this is just one more threat in the Chaos Wastes among an uncountably large number of threats. There is no added strategic value because the area in question already experiences attacks by Chaos Incursions and Everchosens.


Risking lives to determine grudges is one part of dwarven culture I do not want Mathilde to adapt.

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Waystone network and Karag Vlag are tied to this location. Plus there are survivors that might need help. We also have the protector coin active. There are evidence to suggest that Karag Dum is not a lost cause.

 

[IronFist]

Mathilde is the Eight Peaks Loremaster. We should try to find out what's going on so we can properly assess if we need to level any grudges against Borek and Dum for his potential trickery.

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I don't think there was any Trickery on Borek and Dum's side.

Dum needed help at the time Borek left, and Borek tried to get that help. At the time, Dum was not a Fallen hold, and deserving of help.
I'm basing this on the fact that Borek knew that that this was a possibility (his lack of surprise) but hoped it wouldn't come to this (he begs forgiveness, before leaving).

180 years in the chaos wastes is quite a long time to fall in despair.

 

[SoHowAreYou]

Intelligence gathering, assessing potential threats and allies,
Assessing on how it will impact Karag Vlag, the Karag we just saved, the Karag distributing energy to the high king Dwarf.

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We don't know how critical the flow of energy to Thorgrim is. Also once we leave thats it, no one will be coming back here for years at least. Potential allies and enemies will not matter in 20 years if and when people come back. Also the waystone network probably has some sort autoshutdown if a local node is corrupted.

 

[LilyWitch]

and for Dawi being *accurate* in their grudging is also very emotionally important. If they grudged them for falling to chaos and it turned out they only mutated (as an example) multiple very important dawi might go slayer. FInding out accurate information rather then just leaving with our assum ptions could be incredibly important.

 

[wrecksalot]

I disagree with the notion that our job here is done, if knowing that Dum might have fallen to chaos was sufficient, we should've just declared the expedition a success before we even left.

If this is a threat, then this is just one more threat in the Chaos Wastes among an uncountably large number of threats. There is no added strategic value because the area in question already experiences attacks by Chaos Incursions and Everchosens.


Risking lives to determine grudges is one part of dwarven culture I do not want Mathilde to adapt.

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Knowing if we need to worry about Black Orcs 2, now with more beastmen seems highly strategically valuable. The problem with Dum falling to chaos isn't that they're going to rush Kislev with axes, it's that if they do then Chaos has just found another way to get powerful items to all it's forces, and gained another Chaos research institute.

 

[DragonParadox]

and for Dawi being *accurate* in their grudging is also very emotionally important. If they grudged them for falling to chaos and it turned out they only mutated (as an example) multiple very important dawi might go slayer. FInding out accurate information rather then just leaving with our assum ptions could be incredibly important.

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Dwarfs are hard to mutate unlike humans. I don't think they can mutate without Falling. The only examples of mutant dwarfs we have are Dawi Zhar and cultists of the Four.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Objectively, Borek wasn't a bad leader. Perhaps not on the same level as Belegar, charisma wise, but then again, few are. But he has a good head on his shoulders, is pragmatic enough to compromise. We just witnessed his reaction to seeing his hopes for the last almost two centuries disintegrate in a matter of minutes.

That he didn't set his affairs in order before accepting a very bitter pill is forgivable.

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To be fair, his affairs are basically "The Expedition" and Karag Dum. He thinks the former can probably sort itself out without him, and he's about to see to the latter, one way or another.

We already know that there are going to be grudges leveled. Why would we ever want to burden the Dwarves with more grudges they can't settle?

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Personally, though we might frame it as that to the Dwarves, I'd prefer we go in and see what the truth of the matter is. We'll share it if it isn't any more shameful than the current probable assumption of "they're working with Cor-Dum, they've fallen to Chaos", or if there's important strategic benefits to the information, and if it's somehow worse and wouldn't help anything maybe we'll just... not.

 

[IronFist]

I haven't read all the posts (Missed around 10 pages overnight), but was there discussion about what the reaction of the Runelords that have been badmouthing Karag Dum could be?

 

[LilyWitch]

Dwarfs are hard to mutate unlike humans. I don't think they can mutate without Falling. The only examples of mutant dwarfs we have are Dawi Zhar and cultists of the Four.

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🤷‍♀️

It was an example. The important part is that bringing back wrong information could be worse then not getting back at all on both a strategic level and on an emotional level.

 

[tapkomet]

I don't get the people who say this probably isn't important. There are a few potential crucial pieces of information we might learn here. Examples:

- there is a technique to cleanse Beastmen and make them Order-aligned
- there is a technique to trick Beastmen into fighting for you despite them being Chaos-aligned
- the Dum Dwarfs, who are Chaos-aligned, have gathered a fuck-off huge herd of hostile Beastmen, hardened in combat, led by Morghur and equipped by Dum Dwarfs, which will descend upon the civilized lands in X time
- the Dum Dwarfs, who are Chaos-aligned, have access to the Waystone network, and can send corrupt energy through it now that Vlag is back
- the Kurgan and denizens of the Wastes (including the Kul, as in Avasar Kul) are distracted by Dum, but only for X time
- there is a legit Order stronghold out in the Wastes that will welcome adventurers and researchers from Order factions traveling out here
- there is a new Order stronghold offering gods-know-what information, goods, and services

Now, obviously many of these are mutually exclusive, but that's the whole point, we don't know. It could be extremely bad, it could be extremely good, and we can only guess which it is unless we investigate.

 

[Katahiraga]

We don't know how critical the flow of energy to Thorgrim is. Also once we leave thats it, no one will be coming back here for years at least. Potential allies and enemies will not matter in 20 years if and when people come back. Also the waystone network probably has some sort autoshutdown if a local node is corrupted.

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Its true we don't know about the energy, Potential allies is important if its the difference between a Karag lost or saved, by shunning them, we are abandoning Karag Dum to die , by not giving them a chance to talk, we might potentially push them to more extreme measures, isolate them from their people. You are writing them off as a lost cause when there is no conclusive proof yet.

And once again Karag Vlag is tied to Karag Dum.

 

[tapkomet]

If Dum is corrupted by Chaos, it may be best to cut them off from the network before they can mess with the energies they are sending through Vlag, but it's not like we know enough to make that call either way

 

[Katahiraga]

I don't get the people who say this probably isn't important. There are a few potential crucial pieces of information we might learn here. Examples:

- there is a technique to cleanse Beastmen and make them Order-aligned
- there is a technique to trick Beastmen into fighting for you despite them being Chaos-aligned
- the Dum Dwarfs, who are Chaos-aligned, have gathered a fuck-off huge herd of hostile Beastmen, hardened in combat, led by Morghur and equipped by Dum Dwarfs, which will descend upon the civilized lands in X time
- the Dum Dwarfs, who are Chaos-aligned, have access to the Waystone network, and can send corrupt energy through it now that Vlag is back
- the Kurgan and denizens of the Wastes (including the Kul, as in Avasar Kul) are distracted by Dum, but only for X time
- there is a legit Order stronghold out in the Wastes that will welcome adventurers and researchers from Order factions traveling out here
- there is a new Order stronghold offering gods-know-what information, goods, and services

Now, obviously many of these are mutually exclusive, but that's the whole point, we don't know. It could be extremely bad, it could be extremely good, and we can only guess which it is unless we investigate.

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You don't know that Dum dwarfs are chaos-aligned, clues showed that they might not have fallen to chaos, such as the Waystone, if they are chaos aligned the flow of energy from Karag Dum would be corrupted, yet it is not.

 

[SoHowAreYou]

Its true we don't know about the energy, Potential allies is important if its the difference between a Karag lost or saved, by shunning them, we are abandoning Karag Dum to die , by not giving them a chance to talk, we might potentially push them to more extreme measures, isolate them from their people. You are writing them off as a lost cause when there is no conclusive proof yet.

And once again Karag Vlag is tied to Karag Dum.

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I'm nit writing them off as a lost cause but realistically no one will be able to make this trip again for a couple years at least. The guy who built the steamwagons is dead, and we have some responsibility to not get ourselves killed, otherwise everyone else on this expedition is screwed. I don't think walking up to Morghur is a good idea, and I doubt we can infiltrate Dum. We should investigate, but Biden did not think that things were good here.

 

[Deathbybunnies]

Its true we don't know about the energy, Potential allies is important if its the difference between a Karag lost or saved, by shunning them, we are abandoning Karag Dum to die , by not giving them a chance to talk, we might potentially push them to more extreme measures, isolate them from their people. You are writing them off as a lost cause when there is no conclusive proof yet.

And once again Karag Vlag is tied to Karag Dum.

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Vlag wasn't blocking the chain from Dum, if that's what you mean. They were receiving power from it, but Dum sends its power down many routes because Dwarves believe in redundancy.

In fact, OOC, it's entirely possible that Dum saved the Karaz Ankor by refusing to allow their waystone to fall, no matter the cost.

 

[Ithuriel]

From everything we know I suspect the dwarfs of Karak Dum are in the "Fight chaos with chaos" mode. Which we can respect but we know is never going to end well in the long term.

 

[IronFist]

And once again Karag Vlag is tied to Karag Dum.

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Ehh, not really.

Karag Vlag was kept in the Aether with energy from Karag Dum, but that mechanism can't be put in place again unless there is another Storm of Chaos.

Hell, depending on what we find out, It might be a good idea to blow up one of the waystones on the way down to prevent such a scenario from happening again.

 

[Valmond]

Intelligence gathering, assessing potential threats and allies,
Assessing on how it will impact Karag Vlag, the Karag we just saved, the Karag distributing energy to the high king Dwarf.

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Too far to be a realistic threat, too far to be proper allies, we lack the knowledge to make any real judgement on how this will affect Vlag, and even less so to judge its effect on the waystone network.

At this point the best, most reliably useful, thing to do is to get out and inform Kragg and Thorek of what we have seen, and get started on thewaystone project ASAP, not only because we need to know more to understand what the fuck is going on here, but because potentially replacing, repairing, or even making, waystones just got way more important.

If we are worried about the effects on network, we can come back and explode the waystone between here and Vlag.

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I'm nit writing them off as a lost cause but realistically no one will be able to make this trip again for a couple years at least. The guy who built the steamwagons is dead, and we have some responsibility to not get ourselves killed, otherwise everyone else on this expedition is screwed. I don't think walking up to Morghur is a good idea, and I doubt we can infiltrate Dum. We should investigate, but Biden did not think that things were good here.

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Realisticly, nobody is coming back here in years, if not decades, possibly ever, and if/when they do, they will see Karag Dum as the enemy, and us trying to change that last bit is likely to get us branded as the enemy, or just dismissed at best.

 

[agumentic]

Vlag wasn't blocking the chain from Dum, if that's what you mean. They were recoeving power from it, but Dum sends its power down many routes because Dwarves believe in redundancy.

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It was. Dum was too far away to have the same redundancy Azul did.

"I'd believed from the High King's reticence that the flow had stopped. It's hard not to feel hope in that it was redirected at Karak Vlag, rather than ended at Karag Dum.

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[Mopman43]

If Dum is corrupted by Chaos, it may be best to cut them off from the network before they can mess with the energies they are sending through Vlag, but it's not like we know enough to make that call either way

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I really doubt Mathilde can do anything to the Waystone that the Runemasters can't undo.

Vlag wasn't blocking the chain from Dum, if that's what you mean. They were receiving power from it, but Dum sends its power down many routes because Dwarves believe in redundancy.

In fact, OOC, it's entirely possible that Dum saved the Karaz Ankor by refusing to allow their waystone to fall, no matter the cost.

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Thorgrim's monitor said there wasn't energy from Dum. Only 1 connection, through Vlag.

 

[Guile]

2) The thread is still thinking like a Dwarf with all the talk of 'unacceptable ways' and how lost they are to even so much as look at potentially iffy ways of defending themselves (and in that same vein, taking Borek's word for it). Just because whatever they did would be deeply offensive to the pathologically traditionalist Dwarfs of the Karak Anzor (and even perhaps to the dwarfs of Karak Dum themselves) doesn't mean that it has to be deeply offensive to Mathilde. They could still be a valuable member of Order even if all the other Dwarfs in the Old World spit in their faces. Another instance of Divided Loyalties, but one which would present a clear choice at least as far as I'm concerned.

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They couldn't be worse than the elves, right? They're still considered an Order race.

 

[Katahiraga]

I'm nit writing them off as a lost cause but realistically no one will be able to make this trip again for a couple years at least. The guy who built the steamwagons is dead, and we have some responsibility to not get ourselves killed, otherwise everyone else on this expedition is screwed. I don't think walking up to Morghur is a good idea, and I doubt we can infiltrate Dum. We should investigate, but Biden did not think that things were good here.

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The ideas is to be cautious without being paranoid. Ideally the expedition will start small such as examinging bones, the forest, consulting the wizards, detect signs of corruption before contemplating approaching Karag Dum to parley, once enough information has been gathered, currently there are positive clues that Karag Dum has not fallen or to be more specific hope that Karag Dum has not fallen.