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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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BoneyM said:
Across the sands, the two figures meet, and the Shadowgave bends down to consider the Dwarf before him. Then he reaches out a twisted claw and runs it over Borek's hair in what seems to be an affectionate gesture. He stands aside and Borek continues his march, disappearing into the trees. Deafening silence embraces the crowd of onlookers, broken only by the wind whistling past you.
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@BoneyM could Mathilde see how Borek reacted to the affectionate touch?

It could be Cor-Dum is so mindcontrolled that he sees the Dawi of Dum as family, which would explain him doing that gesture while Borek stands there nonplussed having to let it happen.
 
LightLan said:
It could be Cor-Dum is so mindcontrolled that he sees the Dawi of Dum as family, which would explain him doing that gesture while Borek stands there nonplussed having to let it happen.
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I don't think that fits. Beastmen do not have families, or affection, so there'd be no kin-selection instinct for a mind control spell to tap into.
I think that he was raised in the hold after being reborn or something. Perhaps a combination of ultra-radical Runesmith work and nurture has in fact socialized him this time around. If they just clubbed him over the head as an adult (somehow) and bound him, there wouldn't be any affection going on.

Dwarfs believe that without the proper rites, souls (at least Dwarf ones) come back 'round for another go. Maybe they're right, and maybe Cor-Dum's soul was drawn to the hold by all the ambient Dhar, or sheer happenstance.
 
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HungryHamadryad said:
I don't think that fits. Beastmen do not have families, or affection, so there'd be no kin-selection instinct for a mind control spell to tap into.
I think that he was raised in the hold after being reborn or something. Perhaps a combination of ultra-radical Runesmith work and nurture has in fact socialized him this time around. If they just clubbed him over the head as an adult (somehow) and bound him, there wouldn't be any affection going on.

Dwarfs believe that without the proper rites, souls come back 'round for another go. Maybe they're right, and maybe Cor-Dum's soul was drawn to the hold by all the ambient Dhar, or sheer happenstance.
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I broadly agree though I will say that Beastmen do have families (sometimes even bloodlines) and can have affection for each other (though it is meant to be rare, I suspect that has more to do with biased reporting). That said for Cor-Dum to *act like a Dwarf* def points to your theory.
 
pucflek said:
Can we chill and not get the thread locked.


And you are patronizing everyone that does not want to retreat. Chlof is certainly out of bounds, but the entire discussion could chill a bit more and turn into actual discourse instead of venting frustrations in increasingly passive agressive manner.
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Sorry, I really don't see where I'm being passive aggressive want to take this to PMs and tell me where i'm doing that because to my mind outside of a little snark regarding necromancy I don't see it, by the way I think staying now is genuinely a potential path for necromancy faction, it's not for nothing people have talked about using the second secret, maybe in the next few updates if we stay we might hit the watershed high of seven for necromancy and get to 10+.
 
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum seems to be magically connected to somewhere else. Somewhere similar to Athel Loren?
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum may have found a way to create and control beastmen.
[x] ACTION: Ask the local tribes to get confirmation of how long Cor-Dum has been here, and a story of how he arrived. Maybe send some Winter Wolves and Hubert(or just Hubert)somewhere to ask, Hubert knows Khazalid right? Or maybe send Johann?
[x] THEORY: Gor Dum is either a mutated dwarf or controlled by a dwarf, look at how he reacted to Borek.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[x] ACTION: either feign retreat while we secretly return to scout out the situation, or fort up while we scout out the situation.
 
It definitely seems too early to just immediately turn back and give up. There's a lot of low cost (or high cost) actions we can perform to dig up some information that may change our actions or just let us be more informed on what's going on.
  • We can consult the expedition members about the type of forest we see here.
  • We can investigate the bones.
  • We can lob some stuff into the forest as we leave (cannon fire, spells, messages).
  • We can talk with the nearby tribes.
  • We can talk with the nearby terrain and animals (wizard power).
  • We can have a (presumably crazy) volunteer actually enter the forest.
There's also certainly a bunch of ideas that I haven't written down here.

As an example of where this information could lead us. If the forest is Athel Loren and the bones show marks of being killed by elf arrows that would indicate Karag Dum may be under an illusion and allied with wood elves.

If we send a message calling the Karag Dum dawi corrupt and beholden to Chaos that may result in them desiring to prove that isn't true.

If we shoot the forest with cannons and spells it may disrupt an illusion.

Discussion with the locals may determine more accurately what is actually in Karag Dum.
 
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[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.

I think the theories with some variation on the a Shadowgave was reincarnated as a dwarf require the least amount (though still a heckin lot) of assumptions to make some modicum of sense. For our plan of action now, it doesn't matter how the Dwarves bound/coerced it into their service though. Dum is there, there is no indication it has capital-f Fallen, and there are likely dwarves within.

[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.
Summarizing a few different votes in this easy to paste vote.

Mathilde's calling and profession is 'getting to the bottom of weird things'. I for the life of me can't imagine her walking away from this one.

Will support any other information-gathering actions, though I don't think talking to the other Kurgan will yield much actionable intelligence for the risk we're taking.


EDITING IN:
[X] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[X] ACTION: Gain more information.
[X] ACTION: Investigate further.
 
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AAAAAAAaaaaaaAAAAAAAaaaaAAAAAAAAAAaAaAAaAAAAAaaaaaaaaaAAAAAAAAA...!!!!!
 
Well, I'll shill for my theory some more. Here it is again:
agumentic said:
1) Those are not actually Morghur and beastmen, those are dwarfs of Karag Dum.
2) They changed their bodies using the knowledge gained from living at the edge of the Wastes.
3) They did so because when the Wastes expanded, usual protection ritual failed, and they needed better bodies to either live here at all or to fight outside of the protection of the stone/runes.
4) "Morghur" is actually an important member of a Royal Clan/Runemaster that is either related to or knows Borek very closely, which is why he used a very intimate gesture.
5) Borek knew that such plan was possible, which is why he was not surprised, but he finds it horrible for obvious reasons, and thus orders us home.
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I think this theory explains what's going on, the actions of both Borek and "Morghur" and why Karag Dum still supplies pure energy down the waystone. I am opened to critique, and if you are convinced, please vote this.

[X] THEORY: Neither Morghur nor beastmen are what they appear to be - they are instead dwarfs of Karag Dum, who changed bodies through principles they knew but still kept their souls and minds intact. The reason for that was the need for new bodies that could survive fighting in the Wastes. "Morghur" is a member of the Royal Clan or a Runemaster that knew Borek personally, which why he made such an intimate gesture. It is possible that not all dwarfs suffered such fate, if that is the fate they suffered. Borek knew of such plan, but found it shameful and thus fell into despair when he saw it done.

For action, though, I think a more simple vote is needed, something that all who wants to stay can agree on. Let's say, this:

[X] ACTION: Expedition: Digs in; Mathilde: Investigates
[X] ACTION: Attempt to contact the nearby Kurgan tribes for information.
[X] ACTION: Attempt closer examination of Morghur, the beastmen, and the forest.
[X] ACTION: Infiltrate Karag Dum to gather information.

I think whatever theory we choose, first thing Mathilde will need to do afterwards is investigate one thing or another - forest, other tribes, "Morghur", "Beastmen", whatever. Does anyone who wants to stay and find out what is going on disagrees?
Edit: Included a few more general options. Please approval vote whichever you like, if you want to stay.
 
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Guys. Did anyone mention that the lack of corruption in the mountain implies the Runes of Valaya are still active? Boney previously mentioned, a while back now, that Runes draw their power partially from the Ancestors. He said it in response to the idea of using the Belt to experiment with Dark Magic, to imply how bad an idea that was. Chaos Dwarfs switched their worship to Hashut, because they lost Valaya's favour, and the Runes protecting them from mutation and petrification stopped working - they needed a replacement. At least, that's what I seem to remember. If Valaya's Runes are still active, does that not mean Karag Dum still has her favour, and thus hasn't been damned?

We really should pay them a visit first, and dig for info. Note that the "Beastmen" still haven't attacked us. Even putting aside how absurd it would be for THIS GUY to be actually be affectionate with anyone, much less an uncorrupted Dwarf, this implies we will not be attacked unless we initiate hostilities. I think we should put our hopes in the Belt, ask our allies to wait, and then ask the "Beastman" for passage, claiming to have come in peace. Then, we should enter Karag Dum alone and investigate. Even if we don't figure out exactly what happened, we will know more about how Dum works, and so will know what to expect if we ever have to fight them.
 
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Siual said:
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.

I think the theories with some variation on the a Shadowgave was reincarnated as a dwarf require the least amount (though still a heckin lot) of assumptions to make some modicum of sense. For our plan of action now, it doesn't matter how the Dwarves bound/coerced it into their service though. Dum is there, there is no indication it has capital-f Fallen, and there are likely dwarves within.
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The only way they could have bound him is with Chaos (thus fallen) or runes. Using runes for such a purpose is grounds for killing every last one of them for blasphemy against the Ancestor Gods.
 
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BoneyM said:
Mathilde hasn't heard of any illusion Runes, but that doesn't they don't exist, and it definitely doesn't mean they've never existed.
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Uh...

Engineering Rune, (Master) Rune of Disguise; This rune magically distorts space around the machine, rendering it almost invisible. Until it shoots, it cannot be easily seen. To represent this the machine and its crew cannot be targeted with spells, shot at or charged.
Until you get to 8th, and then it is instead just always counted as being in hard cover.

So they can definitely do illusions, even in the modern day, even on modern artillery.
Would Mathilde know? *shrug* She's close to several Master Runesmiths, has worked with and debated with them about runes for years, and is from the Wind of illusions - but it doesn't necessarily mean she knows.


[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is intact, and has a vast illusion of Morghur for protection.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum is using a fake Morghur to make the real beastmen fight for them.
[x] THEORY: Karag Dum has turned to forbidden arts, and Borek left in shame.

[x] ACTION: Form up the steam-wagons for defence.
[x] ACTION: Investigate further.
[x] ACTION: Gain more information.


tl;dr -
Something's fucked. Create a defensive position with good retreat lines, send in the Mathilde.
 
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum is fallen, and has made a pact with Morghur.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has somehow tricked or compelled Morghur to fight the Kurgan tribes.
[X] THEORY: Karag Dum has turned to forbidden arts, and Borek left in shame.

[X] ACTION: Turn back
 
@BoneyM would vote like "[] ACTION: ask <someone on the expedition> about <something>" (Cyrston about botanical specifics of forest, for example) be valid or it isn't needed, Mathilde is doing this automatically, and would it be resolved immediately instead of after voting for actual actions phase if it is needed?
 
DragonParadox said:
The only way they could have bound him is with Chaos (thus fallen) runes. Using runes for such a purpose is grounds for killing every last one of them for blasphemy against the Ancestor Gods.
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I mean I want to leave but this isn't true, Runic collars were made that bound/enslaved Shard dragons and they're dwarf standard items. It's absolutely possible that some variantion on that could in theory bind Morghur, I just don't understand how it would last long enough to matter given his chaos field.
 
[X] THEORY: Neither Morghur nor beastmen are what they appear to be - they are instead dwarfs of Karag Dum, who changed bodies through principles they knew but still kept their souls and minds intact. The reason for that was the need for new bodies that could survive fighting in the Wastes. "Morghur" is a member of the Royal Clan or a Runemaster that knew Borek personally, which why he made such an intimate gesture. It is possible that not all dwarfs suffered such fate, if that is the fate they suffered. Borek knew of such plan, but found it shameful and thus fell into despair when he saw it done.
[X] ACTION: Turn back
 
matvprok said:
@BoneyM would vote like "[] ACTION: ask <someone on the expedition> about <something>" (Cyrston about botanical specifics of forest, for example) be valid or it isn't needed, Mathilde is doing this automatically, and would it be resolved immediately instead of after voting for actual actions phase if it is needed?
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She'll shake down her journeymanlings for data when she gets a chance without needing prompting, if there's a question you think she should ask that's not obvious just ping me with it and I'll make a mental note.
 
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