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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Alratan said:
Thinking of Alchemy, when we've gained our exceptional specialty we're going to need to take more apprentices on so we can properly disseminate the art. Dwarves who have been trained in alchemy alongside runesmithing from the beginning would both have a very different take on it and be an interesting additional perspective to have in the quest.

It would make a nice milestone to set for when to take the next batches of them, as long as people don't try to use that as an excuse to put it off forever.
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So we don't need to take on more apprentices to properly disseminate it. We'll teach it to all of our apprentices that stick around; Dolgi, Karstah when she comes back, etc etc. Getting it out to five aspiring Runelords seems like proper dissemination to me, especially when two of them have four apprentices between them that they can teach it to as well, along with them being able to teach it to any other apprentices they get.

There is something to be said for seeing a beardling introduced to it from the get go, but that's going to be a while and is not really that relevant to planning right now. We're going to be teaching it to our other students before that point, and it is possible they'll get to teaching it to beardlings from the start, if that's possible, ahead of Snorri.

IronFist raises a good point that it might essentially be something for Masters and returned Journeymen more than Apprentices.
Alratan said:
For the Princely gift, I'm still hoping for a Talisman of Brotherhood, Grungni, and Grimnir, representing the brother gods' strength when working together to lead the dwarves.

For the limbs, is it worth considering adding the Rune of Stone to each limb as a common factor? Making them a set would seem ideal if possible.
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It's not possible to make a set with 3 Engineering pieces going by the set component rules in the FAQ.

MrHobbit said:
@BungieONI could you add the 15 Kraka Drak favor back to Dronril? Because 1) I don't mind spending the favor and 2) I think we should soread out the research over multiple turns anyhow. Unless we plan to do it after Turn 39, we'd be loosing out on main research tree progress if we put 2 actions in Dronwut.

If, say, Turn 36 we are researching Gromril Chain (or some other item where both JotO and SotE proc) and Dronril it would look like this.
Gromril chain (3 actions, 6 progress) Dronril (1 action 1 progress)
Gromril chain (3 actions, 6 progress) Dronril (1 action 1 progress)

Vs this:
Gromril chain (2 actions 3 progress) Dronril (2 actions 3 progress)
Gromril chain (4 actions, 8 progress)
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Hmm. The reason I did it is because I'm operating in two regimes, and I'm sorry this wasn't clear:

Either we can finish chain well enough to use it in part on the commission, which I think will take at least parts 2 and 3 being completed, in which case we can't really do Valaya's Basket and Dronril before turn 39. So in essence I would be planning to do Dronril after turn 40 and the Valaya Commission. We might be able to squeeze in Zufazul before the commission though.

Or we can't finish chain beyond part 2 in time, so we'll just get through part 2 and stop, pivoting over to Valaya's Basket and Dronril and Zufazul to wrap up in time for the commission. I'm kind of expecting this one to happen (that was hopefully clear in my discussion prior), which means its largely immaterial if Dronril has 2 or 3 actions left on it, but you do raise a good point that pushing it down to two actions would make it easier to fit in around anything. Can't hurt so I'll change it.
 
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Snorri is mostly likely going to teach Dolgi, Fjolla, and Snerra alchemy once we get around to doing it ourselves. His whole teach them everything oath probably doesn't end once they're caught up to everything he's currently done so a few decades after we get it going he'll probably call them back to bring them up to speed.

I do agree that maybe once we have a solid handle on alchemy and are using it to make actual materials we should get more apprentices to teach them both runesmithing and alchemy because that sounds fun alternatively but that's many many turns away. The good news is we can grab 3 at once when we decide to do that.
 
LaggPlaguedDuke said:
Snorri is mostly likely going to teach Dolgi, Fjolla, and Snerra alchemy once we get around to doing it ourselves. His whole teach them everything oath probably doesn't end once they're caught up to everything he's currently done so a few decades after we get it going he'll probably call them back to bring them up to speed.

I do agree that maybe once we have a solid handle on alchemy and are using it to make actual materials we should get more apprentices to teach them both runesmithing and alchemy because that sounds fun alternatively but that's many many turns away. The good news is we can grab 3 at once when we decide to do that.
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Yeah, and that oath also applies to Karstah and Nain logically enough, and given how long Journeys can take we'll probably see them again around the time we've dug into it a good bit. Which is kinda mighty convenient tbh.

The big things about an Alchemy sub-guild are this:

-We're going to teach what we learn about it to our old students at some point. And they will in turn teach it to their students. And so on and so forth. The knowledge will spread, and we as players don't really need to do anything other than research Akazit and its prereqs.
-What we have at the moment in terms of numbers is a lineage of similarly minded Runesmiths. This will largely expand without our input, but forms the core of any 'sub-guild' even though I hesitate to call twelve Runesmiths (Snorri, Yorri, all the apprentices) a sub-guild at the moment, more like a secret society. We can get more if we want.
-There is a significant question on if teaching Akazit is going to require teaching stuff about Master Runes. If it does, we can't take apprentices with the purpose of teaching them it right from the very start, as about the most Snorri would do is drop hints until they come back from their journeys and prove themselves. If it does not, then we can pick up new beardlings and start it wholesale from the get go.
-The rune of Purification is likely to be important to Akazit in some manner, so there's more reason to study it after turn 40 or 42. If it does end up centrally important to the practice, then the above question is answered.

Too be clear, I see it as one of the next big overall things we could do after the commission, but if people want to do something else like Rune Metal I'm just as happy with that too.
 
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[x] Fire Keeper: Norgrim Snowbeard.
Gain: ++Search and Rescue, +Monster Hunting
[x] Khazid: Accept
Allow the families of your Hearthwardens to settle the hills and lands near and around your workshop.

[x] Plan Chain and A Daughter's Hand
 
BungieONI said:
-There is a significant question on if teaching Akazit is going to require teaching stuff about Master Runes. If it does, we can't take apprentices with the purpose of teaching them it wholesale as about the most Snorri would do is drop hints. If it does not, then we can pick up new beardlings and start it wholesale from the get go.
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Even if it involves a Master Rune, I think Snorri will eventually teach them. Honestly, he's more likely to teach apprentices Alchemy if it involves a Master Rune. If it doesn't he might not, thinking that it isn't really Runesmith-y enough to count, or something like that? He's teaching Fjolla and Dolgi the Master Rune of Purification (and his other secrets), and Snerra just proved herself worthy as well.

It is possible that by the time we finish alchemy, Snorri will see Fjolla, Dolgi, and Snerra as past the 'cut off' date and treat them as a full Runesmith, requiring trading knowledge. Somewhat similar to what we do with Yorri.
 
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MrHobbit said:
Even if it involves a Master Rune, I think Snorri will eventually teach them. That is if Snorri sees Alchemy as connected enough to his obligations as Master. But he's teaching Fjolla and Dolgi the Master Rune of Purification, and Snerra just proved herself worthy. If it does involve a Master Rune, it's more likely to be passed on, in my opinion.

It is possible that by the time we finish alchemy, Snorri will see Fjolla, Dolgi, and Snerra as past the 'cut off' date and treat them as a full Runesmith, requiring trading knowledge. Somewhat similar to what we do with Yorri.
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Ah no, not quite what I meant by 'wholesale'. What I meant by wholesale was that if it does not require master rune related knowledge then he'll do like Alratan wants and teach it from the very start right after he picks his new apprentice. If it does, then I think he'll drop hints until they're ready.

Either way when they come back from their journeys I fully expect him to teach his apprentices everything he knows about it.

E: I edited things to make it clearer what I meant.
E2: Also generally speaking I think Rune Trades are kind of happening with our Master students anyway in the background, and that's largely abstracted out as "Snorri's teaching them everything he knows".
 
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I'm hoping that it Alchemy does require runecraft we can condense the Master Rune of Purification into the regular rune of Purification.

Or that there are lots of preparatory jobs apprentices can do before using the crucibles that the masters make.
 
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BungieONI said:
Yeah, and that oath also applies to Karstah and Nain logically enough, and given how long Journeys can take we'll probably see them again around the time we've dug into it a good bit. Which is kinda mighty convenient tbh.

The big things about an Alchemy sub-guild are this:

-We're going to teach what we learn about it to our old students at some point. And they will in turn teach it to their students. And so on and so forth. The knowledge will spread, and we as players don't really need to do anything other than research Akazit and its prereqs.
-What we have at the moment in terms of numbers is a lineage of similarly minded Runesmiths. This will largely expand without our input, but forms the core of any 'sub-guild' even though I hesitate to call twelve Runesmiths (Snorri, Yorri, all the apprentices) a sub-guild at the moment, more like a secret society. We can get more if we want.
-There is a significant question on if teaching Akazit is going to require teaching stuff about Master Runes. If it does, we can't take apprentices with the purpose of teaching them it right from the very start, as about the most Snorri would do is drop hints until they come back from their journeys and prove themselves. If it does not, then we can pick up new beardlings and start it wholesale from the get go.
-The rune of Purification is likely to be important to Akazit in some manner, so there's more reason to study it after turn 40 or 42. If it does end up centrally important to the practice, then the above question is answered.

Too be clear, I see it as one of the next big overall things we could do after the commission, but if people want to do something else like Rune Metal I'm just as happy with that too.
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Something no-one has mentioned is that an alchemy guild is likely to run into exactly the same issue we were warned of with forged limbs, collectivising runesmiths. This is a big part of why I think we should be aiming to try and divorce alchemy from runes. Obviously runes can be used for alchemy and almost certainly make it easier and will allow greater heights to be reached but we've also had plenty of examples of alchemicalish stuff happening without active runic interference. In my mind the Alchemists guild would be like any other guild where non runesmith dwarves make use of runes to achieve better results than they could on their own but are perfectly capable of operating without them. This has a lot benefits over it being purely a runesmith thing, it sidestep issues with collectivisation; allows the guild to grow much faster; it places less drain on the time of runesmiths; it lets us see Snorri interact with non runesmith apprentices (and provides a nice differentiation between them and our other apprentices); and it allows alchemy to flourish despite, and help fill the gap created by, falling runesmith numbers in the future.
 
Jreengus said:
Something no-one has mentioned is that an alchemy guild is likely to run into exactly the same issue we were warned of with forged limbs, collectivising runesmiths. This is a big part of why I think we should be aiming to try and divorce alchemy from runes. Obviously runes can be used for alchemy and almost certainly make it easier and will allow greater heights to be reached but we've also had plenty of examples of alchemicalish stuff happening without active runic interference. In my mind the Alchemists guild would be like any other guild where non runesmith dwarves make use of runes to achieve better results than they could on their own but are perfectly capable of operating without them. This has a lot benefits over it being purely a runesmith thing, it sidestep issues with collectivisation; allows the guild to grow much faster; it places less drain on the time of runesmiths; it lets us see Snorri interact with non runesmith apprentices (and provides a nice differentiation between them and our other apprentices); and it allows alchemy to flourish despite, and help fill the gap created by, falling runesmith numbers in the future.
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This is a similar thought process to mine, in that we should ensure that the Alchemist Guild should be something that whilst difficult to get into the upper echelons of as any Dwarf guild should be, the entrance and lower levels shouldn't be too hard to ensure that the AG *can* be accessed by more than just a variant of runesmiths and so on.
 
Really like straightbeard as it seems like have a dedicated adjudicator as our reputation, standing, and proportional seniority increases over time. If we're going to be a cultural touchstone, and the hearth guard are going to be with us- might as well have someone versed in the subject.
 
Informal seems like it very much isn't that, and neither does his description, whereas the other two are much more emblematic of what the Hearth Guard is supposed to be about.
 
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Jreengus said:
Something no-one has mentioned is that an alchemy guild is likely to run into exactly the same issue we were warned of with forged limbs, collectivising runesmiths. This is a big part of why I think we should be aiming to try and divorce alchemy from runes. Obviously runes can be used for alchemy and almost certainly make it easier and will allow greater heights to be reached but we've also had plenty of examples of alchemicalish stuff happening without active runic interference. In my mind the Alchemists guild would be like any other guild where non runesmith dwarves make use of runes to achieve better results than they could on their own but are perfectly capable of operating without them. This has a lot benefits over it being purely a runesmith thing, it sidestep issues with collectivisation; allows the guild to grow much faster; it places less drain on the time of runesmiths; it lets us see Snorri interact with non runesmith apprentices (and provides a nice differentiation between them and our other apprentices); and it allows alchemy to flourish despite, and help fill the gap created by, falling runesmith numbers in the future.
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It also puts snorri in a position that heavily influences dwarven society: Guildfounder.

That's Ancestor ascension material right there.
 
Jreengus said:
Something no-one has mentioned is that an alchemy guild is likely to run into exactly the same issue we were warned of with forged limbs, collectivising runesmiths. This is a big part of why I think we should be aiming to try and divorce alchemy from runes. Obviously runes can be used for alchemy and almost certainly make it easier and will allow greater heights to be reached but we've also had plenty of examples of alchemicalish stuff happening without active runic interference. In my mind the Alchemists guild would be like any other guild where non runesmith dwarves make use of runes to achieve better results than they could on their own but are perfectly capable of operating without them. This has a lot benefits over it being purely a runesmith thing, it sidestep issues with collectivisation; allows the guild to grow much faster; it places less drain on the time of runesmiths; it lets us see Snorri interact with non runesmith apprentices (and provides a nice differentiation between them and our other apprentices); and it allows alchemy to flourish despite, and help fill the gap created by, falling runesmith numbers in the future.
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I don't think so, depending on how you define guild. My own definition is that functionally speaking Alchemists are just going to be a subset of Runesmiths, which we can know pretty certainly with Snorri's mention of runes and great machines like his smelters being important for making things with desired qualities using runes as described in the Akazit project text. And because of that they'll naturally follow the organizational mores of the Runesmith Guild, which means alchemists will be a bunch of independent folks who nonetheless still count as a guild.

Because Alchemists are a subset of Runesmiths, and themselves basically are going to have to at least at first come from the Runesmith line of education, the natural way for it to organize itself without Snorri's input is like the Runesmiths. Effectively, given enough members and it should eventually count as a sub-guild or practice within the Runesmith Guild and then once it gets distinct and prominent enough there'd be the political dance to make it official but that is going to take millennia most likely.

If we actively pushed for alchemists to follow Snorri I could see it, but teaching a runelord or other runesmith alchemy stuff isn't really any different from teaching them Deep Magic stuff or something else in a rune trade. The impact of the knowledge is much greater because its totally new, but in and of itself there is no task or semi-assembly line and cross-guild complicating factors like there are with Forged Limbs. I agree it could become an issue, but I don't think its native course will lead to that specific issue, especially if we just let it grow up around Snorri while he works away at going deep on Akazit.

Not unlike what Thungni did with Runes and the Rune Guild actually, come to think of it.

argenten said:
This is a similar thought process to mine, in that we should ensure that the Alchemist Guild should be something that whilst difficult to get into the upper echelons of as any Dwarf guild should be, the entrance and lower levels shouldn't be too hard to ensure that the AG *can* be accessed by more than just a variant of runesmiths and so on.
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This as well. Regardless of collectivization issues, since I think those are a separate consideration, I would really like it if the Alchemist work could be accessed and practiced by Dwarves without the Gift.
 
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EldritchObserver said:
Merry Christmas soulcake and questers.

Also, I hadn't realized that Forged Limb had a non Master variant. Neat.
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Forged Limb is a standard rune actually, and always has been. We might be able to make a master form of it, but I have no idea how. Maybe by combining the runes for sight and hearing we're thinking about.
 
So I decided to try and figure how exactly how our amulet allowed Orra to survive a direct hit from Dragon fire.

soulcake said:
Combo, Hearthward: [Rune of Valaya, Rune of Warding, Rune of Furnace] [The bearer is more resilient to stress and ills, their vitality strengthened, forever warmed and soothed by the hearth's glow.] In the darkest and coldest nights, the Runes burn bright and warm, staving off the worst of it.
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Hearthward itself basically ups a person's vitality, which handily explains how Orra is actually recovering despite her horrendous injuries but that doesn't really explain how she survived to begin with.

soulcake said:
"It is fire, it is safety and warmth, all the passions one tastes but when they are taken in, the bite, the edge is dulled and made pleasant. They sing in concert, and the Ruby Wind dances freely from one to another," Blizzardwing tried to explain to you.
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soulcake said:
Runes of Healing, Fortitude, Fire, Valaya and similarly themed Runes saw, not large but still statistically significant, increases in their potency. This in itself wasn't unknown, but the Hearthstones also seemed to Alter the Rune's function. Healing Runes provided warmth, Runes of Fire heated up the edge when it impacted steel but then became literal flames when striking flesh. When you first noted down the phenomenon it nearly made you question your own sanity. Because the data broke one of the few fundamental assumptions of how Runes functioned. That the material a Rune was inscribed upon should have no true impact on its function. Aye a Rune could express its effect more strongly on certain materials, Gromril and Adamant being the obvious examples, but that was because the Material itself was conducive to Runes in general. A battery, or an enhancer yes, but the effect itself? Static. Unchanging. It could look different to a degree but a Rune of Fire did not alter how it worked because you put it on a different sort of weapon. That was the whole point behind a Rune, consistency where Magic was anything but.

It was only from Blizzardwing's input that you finally understood what was happening. Using her ability to perceive magic, Blizzardwing deduced that the presence of a Rune altered the magic within the stone as it did the Azrilwut. But in this case, it seemed the Hearthstones had enough magical oomph to actually do something of worth when given direction. So the Runes were in fact impacting the Material and not the other way around, leading the magic within to express itself in a similar fashion but tinted through the energy within itself.
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Hearthstones naturally consume the Ruby Wind and turn it into comfortable warmth. I imagine the average the Magma Wrym is swimming in it in Aqshy, so I'm wondering if maybe the Rune-enhanced Hearthstone (which is partially made of dragon bone too) somehow consumed a portion of that ruby-infused flame and momentarily shot that vitality buff into the stratosphere? Like an overheal, just increasing her HP so that the flame couldn't kill her.

Another theory is that we know Hearthstone can raise a room's temperature but I wonder if they do the opposite too? I mean as in lowering a hot room's temp into something comfortable? Mayhaps that function had been supercharged too, explaining why the limb holding the amulet remains while those further from it were scorched off.
 
Speaking of the Rune of Brotherhood - a combo of Brotherhood, Valaya and Gazul could be very interesting for our study of the ties between Dwarfs - after all, Gazul's tie to Valaya as Her brother is the one tie He didn't forsake. That could be a very interesting combo.
 
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