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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Here we goooooo!

We wondered what to do with all our Dwarf Favor? Well we can use it to get even more Holds to join the war effort, beyond those who'd come to fight elves!

[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.

[X] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.

And going on an elfcation after using Dwarf Favor to bring more Dwarves to kill elves would honestly be great fun.
 
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King Arthur said:
I'm not against stealing or destroying it, I'm just nervous.
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I'm against it.

Maybe I'm revealing myself as a No Fun Guy here, but I don't want to treat the lore books as a shopping list for plot. We do not lack for plot. There is plenty of stuff to do. We have enough to keep Mathilde busy for yonks, and I do not think that will ever change, because our successes translate into more things to study and more plot threads to pull on, more than we will ever have time for, and this is on purpose because Boney wants us to make meaningful choices about where to commit our limited resources of time, currency, and loyalty. That's the design ethos underlying the entire quest. So I am frustrated when I see the invention of a task so divorced from the narrative of the quest to date; the quest got a bee in its bonnet a while back about stealing the Skaven from the Horned Rat, which was kind of silly and I'm glad it's died down, but at the very least the Horned Rat has been discussed on screen. The attention being given to the Cloak of Beards is purely the thread's, not Mathilde's, and that bothers me a lot. I want to organically engage with stuff that comes up in the quest and has existing narrative weight, because I trust the QM to make that interesting and deliver payoff.

...speaking of which, there appears to be an eventful update that has just dropped, judging from the vote options I see at the bottom, so I should go read that.

EDIT: Good goddamn, I was not wrong when I said that Boney makes the stuff we already know about pay off narratively. Well then.
 
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Hey @BoneyM, what scale of economic difficulties are we talking about here? Could we just get the Dwarves to throw wealth around and fix the issue? Could our Transcendent Boon do the job, or is Belegar's vast wealth still insufficient for an expense that huge?
 
Andres110 said:
What if we don't steal the Cloak of Beards ourselves? Ranald has some rather excellent thieves worshipping him. We could ask them to go nick it for us while we're away not doing anything suspicious-like, then we won't get in trouble for it. Less glory in it for us, but more glory in it for Ranald in the eyes of the dwarves.
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They'd, uh, probably die. Like, unless they were mainlining his divine energy to the point that they'd qualify more as an avatar than an independent entity.

There are sneakier people in the world than us, and there are thief-ier people, but having those skills so high doesn't help when your overall level is low enough that the area would mulch you anyways.

In order to infiltrate Ulthuan, and more importantly Caledor, they'd have to maintain a constant disguise as another, magically capable species with their own culture, speech patterns, and basic physiological capabilities. That's just to get in, not to pull off the heist.

Once there, they'd have to scope out a location guarded by superhuman warriors and sentries who are all faster and stronger than they are, do a perfect run on the guarded artifact because if even one of them calls the alarm they're getting hunted by wizards, and then exfiltrate the entire continent with their cargo, which happens to be so mystically potent that every legitimate inhabitant they come across could see it with their eyes closed.

The reason we're so good at his things is because we're basically doing Variant Multi-classing, with the Coin to let us draw upon his Priest's class features and our own experience in a synergistic wizard class to pump up all our other numbers.
BoneyM said:
[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
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Why isn't anybody talking about just not murdering each other? It'll suck for a while, yeah, but war sucks more, and everybody will be hurting from the blockade the whole time anyways. At some point you've just got to cut off the parasites, and if that hurts then that's just more of a reason to get it done quickly.
 
mmm...could we sanction them back?

Cut all ties to Marianberg and if they attack us then hopefully the elves won't get involved.

Last time they did so it was because the Empire was the aggressors, but this time Marianberg would be and it'd be cause they were pissed at us for our own internal trade policy...

And honestly **** em.
 
TalonofAnathrax said:
Hey @BoneyM, what scale of economic difficulties are we talking about here? Could we just get the Dwarves to throw wealth around and fix the issue? Could our Transcendent Boon do the job, or is Belegar's vast wealth still insufficient for an expense that huge?
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It's not just pure wealth, but also the influence that would have to be expended to route needed supplies through overland routes. Barak Varr and Zhufbar are likely to take on the brunt of it as it's largely their project, and they'd be significantly weakened by it, and the Empire will still be weaker than the status quo for it.
 
Personally, I'm thinking either break the blockade or shift to overland trade. I don't think anyone is ready to take a swing at Empire or Karaz Ankor at the moment, so we can probably get away with it for a while, but going to war with marienburg sounds like asking for Ulthuan to come in and all the powers get fucked. You want Marienburg back, shaft them first until the elves no longer care to support the city.
Nurgle said:
I say we make war on Marienburg. There goal in life seems to be make money and screw the empire over.
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If we shaft them with the canals they suddenly stop making money and in the process lose both the ability to screw the empire and quire likely lose Ulthuan's support.
 
BoneyM said:
"There's never been a recorded Civil War amongst the Dwarves," he says dubiously.
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What about the Chaos Dwarves or doesn't the Empire know about them?

BoneyM said:
"Ulthuan," you say grimly.

"They've done quite well out of their partnership with Marienburg, and they're even less willing to give a straight answer than usual on the matter. So I put it to you - can the Dwarves be convinced to stop building the canal between the Aver and the Black Waters?"

Under the piercing gaze of the Chamberlain of the Seal, you consider your answer carefully.
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Does the Chamberlain know about the Empire part of the Waystone thing that Algard deduced - aka that Ulthuan syphons the magic in the Waystones?...

Because this seems like potentially relevant info...
 
chocolote12 said:
Why isn't anybody talking about just not murdering each other? It'll suck for a while, yeah, but war sucks more, and everybody will be hurting from the blockade the whole time anyways. At some point you've just got to cut off the parasites, and if that hurts then that's just more of a reason to get it done quickly.
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Yeah...

Frankly this seems like the best option and Marienberg seems to know its the worst option for them. They want to turn this into a war where they can bull the empire into conceeding. Well nothin doing.

Nurgle said:
I say we make war on Marienburg. There goal in life seems to be make money and screw the empire over.
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No, we build around them.

More humiliating and makes them look like the babies they are.
 
cheesyme said:
Personally, I'm thinking either break the blockade or shift to overland trade. I don't think anyone is ready to take a swing at Empire or Karaz Ankor at the moment, so we can probably get away with it for a while, but going to war with marienburg sounds like asking for Ulthuan to come in and all the powers get fucked. You want Marienburg back, shaft them first until the elves no longer care to support the city.

If we shaft them with the canals they suddenly stop making money and in the process lose both the ability to screw the empire and quire likely lose Ulthuan's support.
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I agree, I think this analysis is exactly on point. It's important for the survival of civilization that we avoid allowing the civilized powers to weaken themselves by warring with one another, and we have other ways to solve this problem.
 
[X] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.

[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.

As much as I hate to engage in fantasy saber-rattling these are the only two options that don't put either the empire or Karaz Ankor at a distinct disadvantage.

Cutting into Marienburg's profits is an objectively good thing for everyone who isn't Marienburg, but a hit to eastern trade won't destroy them. If they knew what was good for them they'd make a fuss just short of war then lean into their monopoly on Ulthuan imports to recover losses. At least that's my read.

Obviously I much prefer the "break the blockade" option but ultimately the difference between it and outright "alliance against Marienburg and Ulthuan" is so subtle I'm afraid some electors and kings will miss it, and a war against Marienburg alone isn't bad per se, but being the impetus for, and let's be honest, battlefield of World War Two The War Of Vengeance 2 Manling Booogaloo is very bad for everyone.
 
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Anyway, I don't think we need a war.

Marienburg can not do this blockade without cost. It will cost them a lot of money, and the longer they maintain the blockade while construction on the canals continues, the more severe this will be. A formal proclamation supporting the construction of the canals from the dwarves, and a definite indication that the canal can not be stopped (for once a dwarf has set his mind to something, it's hard to change) might collapse resolve and the blockade before the canals even finish.


If we can pull the support of the Karak Anzor behind the Canal project, Marienburg will have to face the new reality. Their bluff will have been called and failed.
 
Oh, bloody hell.
[ ] The High King could make it so
This is likely to cause discontent within the Karaz Ankor.
Thorgrim probably could do it, but tensions are already unusually high in the Karaz Ankor, and this might lead to something much worse.

[ ] For sufficient concessions
This would weaken the Empire.
This would work, but other solutions exist.

[ ] They can make up for the loss in trade
This would weaken the Karaz Ankor and the Empire until the canals are complete.
With Karak Eight Peaks reclaimed, they probably could get trade flowing overland for long enough to at least partially make up for the deficit.

[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr is the main force behind the project, and would not hesitate to deploy their navy in support of the Empire's to reopen trade routes.
Barak Varr would do this in a heartbeat, if they knew the Empire was being put in such a position that they were considering having to shut down the project for survival.

[ ] No, but they would fight beside you
This could easily be spun as Elven sabotage of a Dwarven project. Dwarven pride would have the Throngs march alongside the Imperial Army, and Marienburg could be reclaimed.
They would absolutely march to war for this. It would likely inflame tensions between Ulthuan and the Karaz Ankor, though.

[ ] No, they cannot be dissuaded
It's hard to say what this would result in.
This would be a lie.

I'm definitely leaning towards:
[ ] No, but they could help break the blockade
Barak Varr would absolutely act to protect their investment, if they were made aware of the issue.
 
BoneyM said:
"They're threatening an embargo, and these canals won't be functional soon enough to stop it from biting. And the Chancellor says that would do unacceptable things to our budget. So we'd have no choice but to try to force the issue. The Battle of Grootscher Marsh was a disaster for the Empire, and though some are keen for a rematch, the timing is terrible.
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Ah.

We all saw the possible battle with Marienburg coming, didn't consider that the Empire might not want to fight it.

Ugly all around, then, especially without a way to know Ulthuan will stay out.

Any of the options that involve still building the canal are asking the Empire's citizens to take a hit while profiting the EIC. We might want to divest ourselves of those shares in the case we pick one of those; handing them off to Mannfred (to be controlled by a regent or w/e) might be a good idea, if only to demonstrate we're not giving this advice because we're personally profiting from it.

I'm still inclined to pick one of the options that keeps the canal under construction, because that binds the Empire and the Dawi closer together, which I think is in both their interests long-term.

Hopefully not one of the ones that lead to an open war between the Elves and Dwarves. That'd get ugly, and ... impractical to cool down afterwords.
 
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