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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Kyubey tried to snake his way in right as tensions were mounting so that he could drive the wedge further between them. Why don't we drag the body over? We can wring its neck if we want to avoid the risk of the Incubator superconsciousness repossessing it (Kyubey having the chance to talk rarely helps), but I think it'd be a great illustrative tool here.
 
[X] Sigh.
-[X] "I think you need some context about why Kyouko really left you, Mami."
-[X] "About a year ago, Pastor Sakura found Kyouko, in red clothes, standing over a group of people who seemed to be dead, in the middle of his church."
-[X] "The good Pastor thought that his daughter had made a deal with the devil. And for some reason, Kyuubey didn't wipe his memory."
-[X] "This put Pastor Sakura on a downward spiral, eventually leading to him killing his family in a murder-suicide."
-[X] "This is why Kyouko doesn't believe in fighting for others. She made her wish for her father's sake, and look at what happened."

I think this is a good one. No assuming that certain events happened, no dry narrative, just providing Mami with some much-needed context for Kyouko's attitude.
 
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Always Happening said:
Kyubey tried to snake his way in right as tensions were mounting so that he could drive the wedge further between them. Why don't we drag the body over? We can wring its neck if we want to avoid the risk of the Incubator superconsciousness repossessing it (Kyubey having the chance to talk rarely helps), but I think it'd be a great illustrative tool here.
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Speaking, of Kyuubey, what could it even do if we hadn't stopped it?
I don't think anything short of the witchbomb would have any effect in this situation.

As a separate and parallel issue, why didn't it even try to contact any of us telepathically? It could have done so with no problem.
I seriously doubt it just "took the hint" and politely bowed out, it's not that polite.
Did it come just to observe, and we made it impossible for it to do so? There's no way they couldn't do that without being physically present.

Shadowrunning absolute worst case scenario?
It may be witchbombing Yuma as we speak.
 
LendvaV said:
Did it come just to observe, and we made it impossible for it to do so? There's no way they couldn't do that without being physically present.
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As sad as it sounds, the "best case" I can think of for why Kyubey decided to show up was simply it sensing a couple of Soul Gems spiking and so decided to swing by on the off-chance one of the owners was headed for a Witch Out; that is, just making sure it had a unit nearby enough to collect the energy from Witching without intending to do anything else. Might be routine for when it senses that sort of thing.

That's the "best case" possibility that I can think of.

I personally doubt that's what we're dealing with, but it's giving Kyubey the biggest benefit of the doubt possible.
 
LendvaV said:
As a separate and parallel issue, why didn't it even try to contact any of us telepathically? It could have done so with no problem.
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It seems to just like showing up personally to its conversations for some reason. It might say something before revealing itself but I don't think it ever does the faceless omnipresent voice thing.
 
Firnagzen said:
"Start with your grand plan of getting Mami to not kill me when I see her again," Kyouko says, and folds her arms, settling back against the tree.
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Firnagzen said:
If you agree, I act as the intermediary. With your permission, all we need to do is to explain why it started, and that's... it.
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Firnagzen said:
"In the end, you've just got to suck it up and do what you were always had to do in the end. Sit down and talk. Communicate."
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And that leads us to the current point in time:

Firnagzen said:
Kyouko hunches her shoulders, mutely shaking her head. "There's a place for people like me, Mami. Go home."
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I don't think that shifting the blame to Kyuubey right here would be productive at all.


- [x] Nudge someone to say something
-- [x] Yuma

This is the best thing I can think of.
 
Okay, I have walked through the valley of compiler and lo, and I only somewhat harmed.

I have sat down with my copy of TDS and lo, I have reread it.

I have thought and considered a plan, and lo, I presenteth.

Firnagzen said:
"I-" Mami swallows, taking another step forward. "Kyouko, I... whatever you've done, it's alright. We can- we can work something out. I-" Mami's voice cracks, and you can see her trying to blink back tears. "I'm sorry, Kyouko. I'm sorry I- I wasn't enough to help, back then. Please- please. I just want my friend back."

Kyouko hunches her shoulders, mutely shaking her head. "There's a place for people like me, Mami. Go home."
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Okay, entirely new approach. Up the gentleness, reduce the everything else. We can actually do our job of moderating this, honestly. I don't think the name is "social therapy" but that's arguably what needs to be done here in order to fulfil our obligations to everyone while being kind and decent.

[X] All "output" ("talking" I mean) in this vote should be out loud. Tone for everything in this vote should be kind and conciliatory.
[X] You two have had this exact discussion before(1), just in different ways and spread out over a lot of moments. It's stalled the same way it did then, because Mami is afraid that if she pushes you, Kyouko, she'll lose you, and you're hesitant to share.
-[X] I can fix part of that problem: Mami, considering your history, your reluctance to take risks with your relationships is completely understandable, but you need to understand something: after what happened, Kyouko was left thinking that while Tomoe Mami could have friends, Kyouko Sakura could not. She very obviously cares about your opinion, Mami, or she wouldn't be here at all, which means you *can* impact this, but what she did matters to her, even if it doesn't to you, and that means you have to risk talking about it.
-[X] To Kyouko: She's shared what happened, at least well enough. But for this to really work, you're going to have to ask her to, please, share why she feels it was her fault.
--[X] Respond to any variant of "But I did it" with e.g. "Did you hold the knife? Did you hang the rope?". Refuse to let her place full blame on herself.
[X] For the rest of the update:
-[X] At any point reasonable, strive to keep it clear that other actors (Pastor Sakura, Kyubey) were the primary drivers in the events leading to Pastor Sakura's murder-suicide.
--[X] Add additional emphasis with lines like "You were supposed to be able to trust your Dad." and/or "This is literally supposed to be Kyubey's job."
-[X] If Kyouko tries to butt heads, be kind, conciliatory, and understanding about it. This has to be pretty stressful for her, even ignoring that she's probably asking herself internally how she even wants this to go. And in a lot of ways, she keeps signaling how she's expecting Mami to reject her. It can't be a great place to be in.

Major (bold+italic) emphasis: highlights parallelism against the "I knew you could have friends, but I didn't know *I* could have friends" line from our talk with Mami a night or two ago.

(1) -- Some of it was unsaid, but it was definitely all conveyed. Source: literal camera images of TDS:

Anyway I'll check back in later. I'm no longer busy all the bloody day @_@
 
@Kaizuki Yeah...I don't think so, no.

I think we still want Mami to be the one to actually be the one handling the negotiations here, as much as possible. She has the biggest stake in this, since she feels like she failed Kyouko one year ago.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Kaizuki on Mar 9, 2020 at 10:58 PM, finished with 233 posts and 26 votes.
  • [X] You won't accept that -- even if it was somehow Kyouko's fault, you wouldn't accept it -- but it isn't her fault. What happened to her family wasn't bad luck, it wasn't good intentions going awry, it was deliberate on the part of another.
    [X] Sayaka, what is Kyuubey's usual response to parents finding out about magic?
    [X] Kyouko, you blaming yourself for this, pushing everyone away, was the intended effect, because Kyuubey wants us isolated. Easier to manipulate.
    [X] Wait. Let Mami handle it.
    [X] All "output" ("talking" I mean) in this vote should be out loud. Tone for everything in this vote should be kind and conciliatory.
    [X] You two have had this exact discussion before(1), just in different ways and spread out over a lot of moments. It's stalled the same way it did then, because Mami is afraid that if she pushes you, Kyouko, she'll lose you, and you're hesitant to share.
    -[X] I can fix part of that problem: Mami, considering your history, your reluctance to take risks with your relationships is completely understandable, but you need to understand something: after what happened, Kyouko was left thinking that while Tomoe Mami could have friends, Kyouko Sakura could not. She very obviously cares about your opinion, Mami, or she wouldn't be here at all, which means you *can* impact this, but what she did matters to her, even if it doesn't to you, and that means you have to risk talking about it.
    -[X] To Kyouko: She's shared what happened, at least well enough. But for this to really work, you're going to have to ask her to, please, share why she feels it was her fault.
    --[X] Respond to any variant of "But I did it" with e.g. "Did you hold the knife? Did you hang the rope?". Refuse to let her place full blame on herself.
    [X] For the rest of the update:
    -[X] At any point reasonable, strive to keep it clear that other actors (Pastor Sakura, Kyubey) were the primary drivers in the events leading to Pastor Sakura's murder-suicide.
    --[X] Add additional emphasis with lines like "You were supposed to be able to trust your Dad." and/or "This is literally supposed to be Kyubey's job."
    -[X] If Kyouko tries to butt heads, be kind, conciliatory, and understanding about it. This has to be pretty stressful for her, even ignoring that she's probably asking herself internally how she even wants this to go. And in a lot of ways, she keeps signaling how she's expecting Mami to reject her. It can't be a great place to be in.
    [X] You won't accept that -- even if it was somehow Kyouko's fault, you wouldn't accept it -- but it isn't her fault. What happened to her family wasn't bad luck, it wasn't good intentions going awry, it was deliberate on the part of another.
    [X] Sayaka, what is Kyuubey's usual response to parents finding out about magic?
    [X] Kyouko, you blaming yourself for this, pushing everyone away, was the intended effect, because Kyuubey wants us isolated. Easier to manipulate.
    [X] Kyouko's own actions aren't the only thing that matters here. Other people there had their own choices to make and, more than anyone else, there were a dozen ways Kyuubey could have acted to help the situation, and deliberately chose not to. That would be in bad faith even if it wasn't directly against his usual MO.
    [X] Out loud, for everyone to hear, without pausing, without judgement or letting your inner turmoil show:
    -[X] Something like a year ago, in winter, Kyubey failed to do its job and wipe the memory of Pastor Sakura of the Sakura Church after he discovered his elder daughter Kyouko standing over a large group of apparently dead people -- unconscious witch kisses -- in front of an altar and wearing a red dress, having just slain a witch in her own home. Pastor Sakura became convinced that Kyouko had made dealings with the devil in order to bewitch people, and descended into alcoholism and abusive behavior before eventually burning himself, his wife, and his younger daughter Momo alive in what is referred to as the "Sakura Church Fire."
    --[X] Shut back up.
    [X] Out loud, for everyone to hear, without pausing, without inflection:
    -[X] Something like a year ago, in winter, Kyubey failed to do its job and wipe the memory of Pastor Sakura of the Sakura Church after he discovered his elder daughter Kyouko standing over a large group of apparently dead people -- unconscious witch kisses -- in front of an altar and wearing a red dress, having just slain a witch in her own home. Pastor Sakura became convinced that Kyouko had made dealings with the devil in order to bewitch people, and descended into alcoholism and abusive behavior before eventually burning himself, his wife, and his younger daughter Momo alive in what is referred to as the "Sakura Church Fire."
    --[X] Shut back up.
    [X] Wait. Let Mami handle it.
    -[X] Keep your Grief senses on Kyubey's body and your eyes on where you think Yuma is. Madokami knows, you need a distraction.
    -[X] Break for voting if Kyouko or Mami transform.
    [X] Wait. Let Mami handle it.
    -[X] If things are seriously not working:
    --[x] Out loud, to Mami:
    ---[x] Mami, if you don't know how to help someone, it's typically not because you aren't "good enough" -- it's almost always because you don't understand their trouble. You usually prefer not to push people to explain themselves to you, instead opting to let other people come and explain their issues to you on their own, but one of the awkward facts about life is that people are generally really bad at deciding to do exactly that. It always seems easier, less risky to just... not tell anybody what's actually wrong. To not volunteer the information you need to understand their problem. It can be hard to tell when, but sometimes, you absolutely have to just push.
    -[X] The place for people like you, Kyouko, is with friends. Deny it all you want but I don't think anyone present would deny being your friend. Even Homura.
    --[X] I've seen you with Yuma, I remember how you were ready to gut me like a fish when I showed up with a freshly contracted Yuma, knowing what this life is like. I've watched you train Sayaka. I don't think you are a bad person; I will not judge you on your past, for your actions in the present speak loud enough.
    ---[X] Apologize to Mami for interrupting but you couldn't let a friend say such things about themselves.
    -[X] Let Mami Handle the rest
    [X] Cleanse Mami's Soul Gem.
    [X] Wait. Let Mami handle it.
    -[X] If things are seriously not working:
    --[X] Out loud, to Kyoko: "Did you tell Kyubey not to wipe your family's memories of magic?"
    --[X] Regardless of whether the response is "yes"/"no"/"wtf the rat can do that", remind Kyoko that she still hasn't explained the details to Mami which she agreed to do, remind Mami that she still hasn't gotten the full story and try to use this to segue back into an explanation.
    [X] Out loud, for everyone to hear:
    -[X] Something like a year ago, in winter, Kyubey failed to do its job and wipe the memory of Pastor Sakura of the Sakura Church after he discovered his elder daughter Kyouko standing over a large group of apparently dead people -- unconscious witch kisses -- in front of an altar and wearing a red dress, having just slain a witch in her own home.
    --[X] This really shouldn't have been an issue, only, Kyouko adored her father, and had become a magical girl in the first place because she wanted people to listen to him. And they did, most especially her.
    ---[X] Discovering this, Pastor Sakura quickly became convinced that Kyouko had made dealings with the devil in order to bewitch people into listening to him, and descended into alcoholism and abusive behavior before eventually burning himself, his wife, and his younger daughter Momo alive, vocally blaming Kyouko for it the entire way.
    ----[X] *That* was what Kyouko "did." You, personally, are substantially more inclined to blame a mix of Kyubey and the literal adult -- her own *father* -- who Kyouko was supposed to be able to trust.
    [X] Sigh.
    -[X] "I think you need some context about why Kyouko really left you, Mami."
    -[X] "About a year ago, Pastor Sakura found Kyouko, in red clothes, standing over a group of people who seemed to be dead, in the middle of his church."
    -[X] "The good Pastor thought that his daughter had made a deal with the devil. And for some reason, Kyuubey didn't wipe his memory."
    -[X] "This put Pastor Sakura on a downward spiral, eventually leading to him killing his family in a murder-suicide."
    -[X] "This is why Kyouko doesn't believe in fighting for others. She made her wish for her father's sake, and look at what happened."
    - [x] Nudge someone to say something
    -- [x] Yuma
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jmcdavid said:
@Kaizuki Yeah...I don't think so, no.

I think we still want Mami to be the one to actually be the one handling the negotiations here, as much as possible. She has the biggest stake in this, since she feels like she failed Kyouko one year ago.
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This is not the intended interpretation of my vote at all.

I don't know what negotiations you're talking about, but the intent here is "Get Mami and Kyouko to move past literally rehashing what they covered back in the day." Anything else is meant to be an appendix, more or less, to be executed "in the event the other stuff works" because at some point I was given the impression people wanted that. If that's not how you're reading it, I wish you'd explain your perspective to me.

There are so, so many ways we could approach "Get Mami and Kyouko to move past literally rehashing what they covered back in the day." So many. We've laid out ten or twelve at this point, I think. They vary in approach and in content, in tone and... etcetera.

I've been in this awkward position where my visits to the thread have been spaced out by intervals of me working my ass off on other stuff. It's made my presence slightly disjointed, and each time I have come back to some objection or another to the current iteration of "Get Mami and Kyouko to move past literally rehashing what they covered back in the day."

Now, that's not a problem. What is a problem is that at this point we have six votes for the (old as fuck) brinavote, we have four votes to let Mami handle it, and we have a boatload of votes spread across like twelve different interpretations of "Get Mami and Kyouko to move past literally rehashing what they covered back in the day." That's a problem.

Each time I came in and wrote some new variation, I kept hoping that this time, I would convince people to get in the same boat. I clearly haven't managed that.

So, here's the deal. I like "[] Let Mami handle it" a lot more than I like the brinavote. I'm not feeling incredibly charismatic at the moment -- all I'm feeling is tired as fuck -- and I definitely don't feel like I'm up to trying to convince everyone here that this or that particular version is the right vote and would you all please vote for it.

We've had at this point, I think, more than sufficient discussion of the vote. I think we've got a bunch of clear possibilities very well fleshed out and sitting on the table.

I'm not going to write a another one without a clear and fleshed out post telling me why I need to write another one.

I'm not going to revise this one without a clear and fleshed out post telling me why I need to do so, along with at least some indication that me doing so will result in a change in the vote tally.

It's been twelve hours since I posted my latest version and there's been one post since. If that's how this is going to continue, I am going to X in a "[] Let Mami handle it" tomorrow.

I don't remember how else I'd go about addressing this. Too much has changed since I was last really active, here. And I really need to go to sleep >_<
 
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I can't articulate why, but I'm not feeling this vote like I was Catgirl's previous vote. I'm sticking to the old vote.

Sorry.
 
[X] Out loud, for everyone to hear:
-[X] Something like a year ago, in winter, Kyubey failed to do its job and wipe the memory of Pastor Sakura of the Sakura Church after he discovered his elder daughter Kyouko standing over a large group of apparently dead people -- unconscious witch kisses -- in front of an altar and wearing a red dress, having just slain a witch in her own home.
--[X] This really shouldn't have been an issue, only, Kyouko adored her father, and had become a magical girl in the first place because she wanted people to listen to him. And they did, most especially her.
---[X] Discovering this, Pastor Sakura quickly became convinced that Kyouko had made dealings with the devil in order to bewitch people into listening to him, and descended into alcoholism and abusive behavior before eventually burning himself, his wife, and his younger daughter Momo alive, vocally blaming Kyouko for it the entire way.
----[X] *That* was what Kyouko "did." You, personally, are substantially more inclined to blame a mix of Kyubey and the literal adult -- her own *father* -- who Kyouko was supposed to be able to trust.
 
Aranfan said:
I can't articulate why, but I'm not feeling this vote like I was Catgirl's previous vote. I'm sticking to the old vote.

Sorry.
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No, no sorry.

Look, I should restate my post from just now: I want people to pick an option. I am essentially okay with every vote I've laid out. I am essentially okay with even [] let Mami handle it. I just want to be able to *pick one*, so don't be sorry for stating your preference, I *appreciate it.*

Spectral Waltz said:
[X] Out loud, for everyone to hear:
-[X] Something like a year ago, in winter, Kyubey failed to do its job and wipe the memory of Pastor Sakura of the Sakura Church after he discovered his elder daughter Kyouko standing over a large group of apparently dead people -- unconscious witch kisses -- in front of an altar and wearing a red dress, having just slain a witch in her own home.
--[X] This really shouldn't have been an issue, only, Kyouko adored her father, and had become a magical girl in the first place because she wanted people to listen to him. And they did, most especially her.
---[X] Discovering this, Pastor Sakura quickly became convinced that Kyouko had made dealings with the devil in order to bewitch people into listening to him, and descended into alcoholism and abusive behavior before eventually burning himself, his wife, and his younger daughter Momo alive, vocally blaming Kyouko for it the entire way.
----[X] *That* was what Kyouko "did." You, personally, are substantially more inclined to blame a mix of Kyubey and the literal adult -- her own *father* -- who Kyouko was supposed to be able to trust.
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This one there is a minor issue with, I got the details of the crime wrong:

Tentative:

[X] Out loud, for everyone to hear:
-[X] Something like a year ago, in winter, Kyubey failed to do its job and wipe the memory of Pastor Sakura of the Sakura Church after he discovered his elder daughter Kyouko standing over a large group of apparently dead people -- unconscious witch kisses -- in front of an altar and wearing a red dress, having just slain a witch in her own home.
--[X] This really shouldn't have been an issue, only, Kyouko adored her father, and had become a magical girl in the first place because she wanted people to listen to him. And they did, most especially her.
---[X] Discovering this, Pastor Sakura quickly became convinced that Kyouko had made dealings with the devil in order to bewitch people into listening to him, and descended into alcoholism and abusive behavior before eventually murdering his wife and his younger daughter Momo, killing himself, setting fire to the Sakura Church... And vocally blaming Kyouko for it the entire way.
----[X] *That* was what Kyouko "did." You, personally, are substantially more inclined to blame a mix of Kyubey and the literal adult -- her own *father* -- who Kyouko was supposed to be able to trust.
 
Correcting

[X] Out loud, for everyone to hear:
-[X] Something like a year ago, in winter, Kyubey failed to do its job and wipe the memory of Pastor Sakura of the Sakura Church after he discovered his elder daughter Kyouko standing over a large group of apparently dead people -- unconscious witch kisses -- in front of an altar and wearing a red dress, having just slain a witch in her own home.
--[X] This really shouldn't have been an issue, only, Kyouko adored her father, and had become a magical girl in the first place because she wanted people to listen to him. And they did, most especially her.
---[X] Discovering this, Pastor Sakura quickly became convinced that Kyouko had made dealings with the devil in order to bewitch people into listening to him, and descended into alcoholism and abusive behavior before eventually murdering his wife and his younger daughter Momo, killing himself, setting fire to the Sakura Church... And vocally blaming Kyouko for it the entire way.
----[X] *That* was what Kyouko "did." You, personally, are substantially more inclined to blame a mix of Kyubey and the literal adult -- her own *father* -- who Kyouko was supposed to be able to trust.
 
You know.

Despite the seriousness of the situation, the last line provides us with an excellent opportunity for a spot of easy evangelism

[Q] "About that. Have you heard about Madokami, our Lord and Savior?"
-[Q] "For it is said in her Gospel: 'For no days the gates will be closed, for there will be no night, no time, for all impure may enter it, but only those whose names are written in Her Friend List, unless they do Microwave Tea.'"
-[Q] "Better than Catholicism, am I right or am I right?"
 
Raiseth said:
You know.

Despite the seriousness of the situation, the last line provides us with an excellent opportunity for a spot of easy evangelism

[Q] "About that. Have you heard about Madokami, our Lord and Savior?"
-[Q] "For it is said in her Gospel: 'For no days the gates will be closed, for there will be no night, no time, for all impure may enter it, but only those whose names are written in Her Friend List, unless they do Microwave Tea.'"
-[Q] "Better than Catholicism, am I right or am I right?"
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I'd prefer a more matter-of-fact approach.

[] You're sorry you didn't mention it earlier, but one of the things you Know is that Hell doesn't exist.
[] There's just a neutral place and a good place, and Kyoko goes to the good place. Mom made it partly for her.
 
Torgamous said:
I'd prefer a more matter-of-fact approach.

[] You're sorry you didn't mention it earlier, but one of the things you Know is that Hell doesn't exist.
[] There's just a neutral place and a good place, and Kyoko goes to the good place. Mom made it partly for her.
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There kind of was a bad place but your mother pretty much defined that as the absence of Mom and Mom is sortof omnipresent so.
 
Jonen C said:
There kind of was a bad place but your mother pretty much defined that as the absence of Mom and Mom is sortof omnipresent so.
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Homura has been going through Madoka withdrawal for several years straight, so when faced with a possibility of no more Madoka until she dies, she flipped and launched an armed insurrection.
 
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