Wraiths were an independent consequence of the universe reacting to the scope of Madoka's wish. The afterlife canonically exists independently of Madoka's wish. Madoka's heralds are simply a way that she can decide to approach her one thing of "prevent magical girls from turning into witches".
then can you explain why the magical girls who take up the powers of heralds can straight up and summon their witches like stands?
cause that doesn't make sense unless madokami has powers beyond just shattering soul gems that are about to witch
also has anyone else realized the existentialy horrific idea that if madoka makes her canon wish then not only are we looking at the massive and not good fallout from canon
but Sabrina will be retroactively erased from having ever existed. since madoka would never have existed to wish us into existence
This is already all but confirmed; in canon, Modoka's wish retgone'd Kazumi Subaru, because Michiru never becoming a witch means pretty much the entire rest of the plot of PMKM doesn't happen.
then can you explain why the magical girls who take up the powers of heralds can straight up and summon their witches like stands?
cause that doesn't make sense unless madokami has powers beyond just shattering soul gems that are about to witch
What makes you think that's something intrinsic to being a herald? Even looking at non-PMAS-canon materials, MagiReco has that shit happening all over the place.
Adhoc vote count started by Godwinson on May 25, 2019 at 3:21 PM, finished with 124 posts and 11 votes.
[X] Political reasoning:
[X] We need plans to discover the truth of Tokyo on our subsequent visits, including the complications of lying or concealment.
[X] Is our position concerned with ruling or leading others? Are all of our interests in Tokyo simply summed as save lives, and be good?
-[X] The most important action for us, after protecting our lives and freedoms, is to clearly understand what we could about who we are interacting with - in this case Chiyoda Group and the many other girls in Tokyo.
--[X] What is their overall intent, and how do they want to get it?
-[X] WE can be specific - will they allow the citizens of their city to gain free cleansing in ANY way, or not?
--[X] When offered a chance to act better, will they?
--[X] You're doing this to facilitate a kinder world, not dictate precisely how it comes about.
--[X] Ultimately, clear seeds are a macguffin, and if the needs of preventing fighting over those macguffins are untenable for Tokyo then you can offer something else instead.
-- [X] You have ideas for how to pass out cleansing without clear seeds, e.g. grief seed exchanges, and if it comes down to it, you could cleanse as a stopgap solution while they argue on what's best and how they'd need to adapt.
-[X] On the topic of recruitment:
--[x] Should we recruit from Tokyo, should we try to draw immigrants from their population? Ask Homura to estimate the time we would need for everyone to get used to working together? What's should our deadlines for recruitment be, in other words?
-[x] Admit your brochure envy: You kind of want to crib from Tokyo and make a primer for introducing girls to Mitakihara.
[x] Vote in abeyance
[X] Final politics points.
-[X] Perhaps you're getting too bogged down in what it would take to make clear seeds work, especially if it means stepping in and revamping Tokyo's structure, which could well set you against them.
--[X] You're doing this to facilitate a kinder world, not dictate precisely how it comes about.
--[X] Ultimately, clear seeds are a macguffin, and if the needs of preventing fighting over those macguffins are untenable for Tokyo then you can offer something else instead.
-- [X] You have ideas for how to pass out cleansing beyond just without clear seeds, but you've also had ideas for grief seed exchanges in the past, taking one for the equivalent of every two refreshed, and if it comes down to it, you can just cleanse as a stopgap solution and let them spend the next six weeks arguing on what's best and how they'd need to adapt.
-[X] On the topic of recruitment:
--[x] If we intend to recruit from Tokyo, how much training does Homura think we would need for everyone to get used to working together? And just for recruiting in general, really, What's should our deadlines for recruitment be, in other words?
-[x] Admit your brochure envy: You kind of want to crib from Tokyo and make a primer for introducing girls to Mitakihara.
[x] Vote in abeyance
What makes you think that's something intrinsic to being a herald? Even looking at non-PMAS-canon materials, MagiReco has that shit happening all over the place.
This is already all but confirmed; in canon, Modoka's wish retgone'd Kazumi Subaru, because Michiru never becoming a witch means pretty much the entire rest of the plot of PMKM doesn't happen.
that's also pretty awful, makes me wonder if madoka would have still made her wish knowing that (semi) successful dewitchings had been accomplished, and that by stopping witches from ever existing she was effectively killing those people before they were born
also brings up an interesting moral dilemma
because we uboquivicably did the right thing by saving michiru from witching out, but because that never happened kazumi Subaru was never born/created. and so in a way we killed michiru's reincarnated self by not letting her die.
we did something undeniably good that had, well let's just say interesting philosophical consequences
Kazumi Subaru still exists inside the Law of Cycles, because she made a contract within one of the timelines. She saves ALL of them, even if it's impossible. it's why she retconned herself out of existence as a result.
The Law of Cycles also seems to be a separate afterlife from the general one everyone seems to go to. Magical Girls are described as being "part of" the Law of Cycles, with Sayaka and the gang being described as "pieces that were cut out of it." They have some aspect of divinity/multiversal enlightenment as a result.
The general afterlife, meanwhile, seems to be way more mellow; in that instead of being a super awesome angel, the most influence you could have over the real world is nudging somebody in a dream or something. It's also not clear if a regular ghost is limited to a single timeline or has Multiversal Perspective like Madoka and the gang.
On top of all of this, Wraith Arc says that gemsmashed Magical Girls don't go to the Law of Cycles. They didn't 'need' her, as it were.
Kazumi Subaru still exists inside the Law of Cycles, because she made a contract within one of the timelines. She saves ALL of them, even if it's impossible. it's why she retconned herself out of existence as a result.
The Law of Cycles also seems to be a separate afterlife from the general one everyone seems to go to. Magical Girls are described as being "part of" the Law of Cycles, with Sayaka and the gang being described as "pieces that were cut out of it." They have some aspect of divinity/multiversal enlightenment as a result.
The general afterlife, meanwhile, seems to be way more mellow; in that instead of being a super awesome angel, the most influence you could have over the real world is nudging somebody in a dream or something. It's also not clear if a regular ghost is limited to a single timeline or has Multiversal Perspective like Madoka and the gang.
On top of all of this, Wraith Arc says that gemsmashed Magical Girls don't go to the Law of Cycles. They didn't 'need' her, as it were.
Oof, if being an angel of madokami plays out like being an agent of the counterforce, either Gaia or Alaya, doesn't matter, from the nasuverse
I think that might break sayaka all over again
Though as you pointed out Magia Record seems to indicate a Law of Cycles/Madokami personality divide so if Alaya was really the Law of Cycles with Madokami only being able to intervene every so often then it might not go so differently.
Though as you pointed out Magia Record seems to indicate a Law of Cycles/Madokami personality divide so if Alaya was really the Law of Cycles with Madokami only being able to intervene every so often then it might not go so differently.
Right but if Madokami's prime directive was "Protect humanity" instead of "Defeat witches before they are born", her agency blows wide the fuck up because Madoka is free to interpret her prime directive however she wants.
"Aaanyway," you say. "So, um, back to the topic at hand - Tokyo. I guess it might help to be more specific for this discussion?"
"I think Homura's right," Mami says, smiling gently around the table. "And Madoka, and Sayaka. Our best case option for Tokyo is to see if we can negotiate a group to be nominally detached from Toshimichi's direct authority to police the others?"
"With a Clear Seed, it might actually be easier!" Madoka says brightly. "Being, ah, constrained by needing to hunt for Grief Seeds means that magical girls can't really handle other activities, right?"
"It's always been a challenge, before Sabrina," Mami says, gracing you with a warm smile.
"Aaaactually," Sayaka says. "I know we don't quite trust Toshimichi and Chiyoda by extension, but like... is there a reason they can't be a police force?" She waves her hands expressively. "Not for Japan and all, since they're tied to Tokyo, but within Tokyo they already kind of enforce things, right? If we're talking about best case scenarios, we wanna hand 'em the Clear Seeds, and tell them 'our conditions are blah and blah and blah'?"
"I stand corrected," you say cheerfully. "That's our best case scenario - we find Chiyoda trustworthy, willing, and able to help us. At the very least, we know they want to keep the peace, so that's a step in the right direction. Their motives for doing so..." You shrug, and take a sip of soup.
"I could also get some clones and animals going in Tokyo to keep an eye on them," Sayaka says dubiously. "I mean, clone army and me being police and all, sure, but checking on all of Tokyo... well, that's a bit of a tall order for me."
"Yeah, I get it," you say. "Put that as a backup of a backup."
"Baah," Sayaka says. "Food now. Talk later. Still hungry." She suits action to word, stuffing her mouth.
You snort, and follow her lead, sneaking Mami a quick smile.
Dinner doesn't last too long, not with it being half eaten already and the five hungry teenagers attacking it. Still, you're the first to set down your chopsticks and sit back, scooting your chair over so you can lean against Mami. She sighs happily and snuggles against you.
"Your cooking is delicious," you tell her. "And you don't get to deflect it this time, because you were the one doing most of the work."
"Yours is better," Mami says stubbornly.
Just as you're about to respond, something hits you on the side of your head. You turn to glare at Say- at Madoka, who blushes and stifles a giggle.
"Don't argue!" she says, threatening you with another piece of wadded up notepaper.
"OK, OK!" you say, raising both hands defensively. "Sheesh, mom."
"I'm too young to be a teenage mother!" Madoka wails.
Sayaka snickers, patting Madoka on the shoulder. "Y'know, I can kind of see it."
"Noooooo," Madoka moans, pouting and squirming away from Sayaka.
Mami laughs cheerfully and relaxes against your side, surveying the group with a fond smile. You catch Homura's eye, smiling warmly and trying to convey a message with your eyes: it's OK to relax, and enjoy herself. She shrugs slightly.
You don't know if she got it, but she does look more settled. Just a touch happier, calmer in the moment with Madoka at her side. Your smile widens, and you simply let the conversation flow, chattering about inanities and school and teasing and simply living for now. Nothing heavy, nothing important, just friends hanging out together.
All too soon, it's time for Madoka and Sayaka to leave - they're expected home, after all.
"Thank you for coming today, everyone," Mami says warmly as they stand at the door. "Especially you, Homura. I know you have a lot on your plate."
"Yeah!" Madoka says. She beams brightly at Homura. "It was fun! And thank you, Mami, Sabrina, for having us over."
"Yep, yep!" Sayaka says, clapping Homura on the back. Homura allows this, only sidling away afterwards. "Definitely. See you tomorrow!"
"See you!" Madoka says, waving happily.
"Tomorrow," Mami says.
"Ayep! 'night, guys, be careful on the way home, yeah?" you say. You smile at Homura. "A word before you head off, Homura?" You let your eyes flick towards Sayaka's retreating back for a split second - you know, and you know that Homura knows that they'll be headed the same direction home. That Sayaka can keep Madoka safe.
"What do you need?" Homura asks finally, as one last 'byeeeeee' echoes down the corridor from the lift lobby.
You wave her back into the living room as Mami locks the door, and you all seat yourselves - Mami right beside you, Homura opposite the both of you. As opposite as one can get with the triangularness... triangularity of Table-kun, anyway.
"It's..." You trail off, and shake your head sheepishly. "It's a bad segue, is what it is. But I don't want to keep you too long, so I'll just jump straight to it: I think tonight might be the happiest I've ever seen Madoka, you know?"
"Yes," Homura says simply, expression blank.
"I just wanted to point it out," you say. "I wanted you to know that, because I think you being here helped a lot with that." You smile at Homura. "It's not just the politics. She seemed to find that really satisfying, just being able to contribute like that, but..."
"She enjoyed spending time with her friends," Mami finishes for you. "That includes you, Homura." She smiles gently. "She considers you a good friend. As do I."
"Madoka enjoys having her friends together. You especially," you add, giving Mami a smile and squeezing her hand gently. "She was making a point to include you, too, to give you opportunities to be a part of the conversation, you know? And it made her happy when you joined in."
Homura sighs quietly, looking down. "I know," she says. "I... I'm not good at conversation."
"It's a skill to learn," you say with a smile. "And just like any other skill, it helps when someone helps you practice it. Sayaka, too - she was giving you little nudges to help ease things along. It's like..." You wave a hand, searching for the words to phrase it.
"Sayaka?" Homura asks, with a faint crease to her brow that's her equivalent of a flabbergasted look.
Mami giggles before you can open your mouth. "She wasn't too subtle, either," she says. "You've earned her trust, Homura, and she wanted you and Madoka to be proper friends, too. Hitomi, too."
"It's the little things," you say. A one-two punch, between you and Mami. "Just making sure you could really talk to each other properly, giving you the space to do so. But all that I'm really trying to say, Homura, is Madoka was glad to have you around. And she was happier because you were."
"That's-" Homura closes her eyes, and sighs, looking down. "I'll try." Her eyes flicker up to Mami, and then you, holding your gaze with her own for a moment. "It doesn't..."
Homura trails off, shaking her head wordlessly. You lean forward, laying your hand over hers.
"Madoka needs to feel like she's contributing," you say quietly. "She's happy helping out with the politics, but more importantly... she's happy making her friends happy. It's a big part of what drives her."
Listen, Homura. Listen, listen, please, you plead with your eyes. Because this is important.
"It's... self-worth issues, maybe," you say. "I don't like the term. It's, it's an ugly label. But she's happiest helping. Making her friends happy - and that includes you, Homura. Right from day one."
Homura takes a deep breath, closing her eyes and holding up a hand. Obediently, you fall silent. Mami nudges her shoulder gently against yours, sneaking you a quick, warm smile.
It takes a minute before Homura stirs again. Her attention flickers from you to Mami, and then back again.
She holds her hand out to you and Mami, palm up.
"Mami," she whispers. "You should know. If you want to."
"I-" Mami's eyes widen, her gaze snapping to Homura, then to you. "I- are you sure?"
[] Ask Homura to discuss first in timestop
[] Let Homura tell it her way
- [] How do you explain your part? [] Deny this
[] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)
[x] TO THE INTERNETS
-[x] Check email. Set up new-mail notifications, just in case.
-[x] Check back in with #nyantokanyaru.
--[x] Their reaction to you was a bit worrying. Is there someone other than Rionna going around ganking grief controllers or do grief controllers tend to be super territorial or something?
--[x] Ask about their local politics. With a grief controller acting as a force multiplier for a Clear Seed, you might want to get one to them sooner rather than later so they can share it around.
--[x] Also, Mitakihara has infinite cleansing and can accept refugees.
--[x] Talk Walpy. You are assembling an army. Even if they don't want to fight, it'd be great to have a grief controller with a clear seed to staff the trauma ward.
--[x] Ask if they know anything about the Iowa group. You're pretty sure they'll be gunning for you and you intend to do unto them before they do unto you.
-[x] #milesgloriosus and other channels as time and attention permit. Standard routine:
--[x] Introduce self, you're sending out feelers internationally and getting to know people, you have true cleansing, you want to help, share contact info, etc.
--[x] Mitakihara can accept refugees. You can refresh grief seeds if anyone is in urgent need.
--[x] Clear Seeds: Following what you told Nadia, inform if the group seems stable and helpful.
--[x] Gather information about Iowa and other threats, recruit for Walpy if reasonable.
---[x] Can segue from the Mitakihara refugee invite - "We can more or less guarantee safety, support, and peace, but we are expecting some inclement weather..."
=====
Aaargh. I'm sorry to put the internet vote in abeyance again - in fairness, I really didn't expect Homura to offer, until the very last moment when she did. *grumblegrumble*
"
