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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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I believe on plan for the soujo's was more or less to warn everyone ahead of time and have an early warning system for them, we should make a trap using ourselves, or a grief double, and grief hack it in such a way that if they try to attack it will entrap them
 
DB_Explorer said:
[x] Discuss the politics of Tokyo!
-[x] Hitomi and Madoka's thoughts on the matter. Focus on how any possibilities will influence your first meetings relative to your goals of future such as clear seed distribution. If you have too many ideas focus on Most likely case, Worst Case and Most Dangerous Cause.
- [X] Also Specifically figure out what you know, and what you DON'T know and what you wish you knew and what you NEED to know. This makes questions to answer that can shape our approach to negotiations and what to look for longer term. The questions you NEED to answer become priority.
[x] Dinner!
[x] What do you do afterwards?
- [x] Check email, anything important/urgent should break to a vote, otherwise set reminders to follow up on anything in our phone.
- [x] Check out the IRCs again
- [x] With #nyantokanyaru you want to see how they are doing, disposition in terms of diplomacy (friendly, isolationist/paranoid etc) and ask what they know and think about Tokyo using the discussion from earlier as a guide for what to ask.
- [x] Once Tokyo is covered bring up that, given they have a grief manipulator, you are looking to see if we can give them a clear seed sooner rather than later. Also Walpy is coming so see if Homura wants to try to recruit any of them . Mention though, if you try to recruit, that any sort of assistance would be welcome - even just a grief manipulator in the back likes with a clear seed helping with medical support.... also we're accepting refugees now since well infinite cleansing. In short, we have a lot we could discuss and would like to work out a face to face meeting.
- [x] If we have time check on #milesgloriosus and see if we can talk to any of the other girls on the server we have yet to meet. General introductions for them, nice, friendly, and honest. Get an idea on how the group as a whole is in terms of situation and disposition (fractured, unified, aggressive, passive etc) We can also see what we can find on the Iowa group to help inform identifying gaps in knowledge on the Iowa group and narrow down on the questions we need to answer.
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I'm thinking a topic we need to groupthink about is the presence of disaffected Tokyo girls. (though WHY is already off limits.)

Do we want to work towards unification, or separation?

Should we meet them earlier or later?

In a sense I expect Toshimichi to get us alone somewhere so she can take off her public persona for a moment. Then she would shock us with a "Thank God you're here! I didn't know how much longer we could keep this up! We don't know how to stop without everyone dying!"
 
I think that there was some discussion earlier about what the Chiyoda group was getting out of the meguca rotation, which generally came to the conclusion that it could be anything. I think that most of the "integration" and "social harmony" answers are invalidated by the fact that nobody knows anything about Toschimichi despite this rotation. If she's not building camaraderie with that rotation, she must be actively avoiding it, which doesn't agree with the goals at all. Rather, I suspect that she's using the time to apply her magic to people. The rotation is to guarantee that she covers everyone. If she does have mind magic, separating people from their teams gives her total freedom to do whatever she wants: She could literally hit them in the head with a brick and do the "there is no war in ba-sing-se" routine and nobody would know a thing because everyone in Tokyo has to go into a witch barrier with her and her team and nobody else. Standard horror-movie strategy.
The Phoenixian said:
I also think Vebyast's vote has insufficient focus on just talking to #nyantokanyaru and getting an idea of who they are.
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I suspect that that's going to happen no matter what we vote for. Especially because my vote has more than a few phrases like "If they seem stable and helpful" and "If they have urgent need" and "If they sound like people you could randomly invite to a fight with Walpy" scattered around in it, all of which will have obvious effects on the kinds of things that Sabrina does. And, honestly, I recommend you go back and read the votes that led to our earlier interactions with #milesgloriosus and #nyantokanyaru; Sabrina is more than capable of goofing around and being friendly with people without any votes from us whatsoever. We usually have to vote not to be goofily friendly. I don't think that there's any risk that we'll fail to be friendly because we forgot to write it into the vote. Sabrina has an established personality by now and we can trust her to do the right thing when it's in her nature and helpful.
The Phoenixian said:
Also adding the note that we will try to recruit from Tokyo, not just cleanse. That seems important.
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Sure.
DB_Explorer said:
? I mean you refer to it as discussing it with our cabinet - that puts them automatically into a subordinate role (also
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@Firnagzen has the right perspective on that bit of vote - the idea that we have a cabinet, in the governmental sense of the word, is an outright joke.

That said - There's no way to get around the fact that we have to do the talking. We can call back home to review significant decisions, we'll probably bring Sayaka and maybe Homura, but Homura and Hitomi can only give us advice. They can't dictate our reactions or anything because we don't have enough information and they can't react to what we learn in realtime. Really, one of the things they need to be teaching us is how to do politics.
DB_Explorer said:
I think we can't really discuss terms beyond generalities before we figure out whats going on with Tokyo.
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Which is why my vote is limited to requests for high-level guidance. I do expect Hitomi and Madoka to have advice for us on the topics that I listed in my vote, as nebulous as those things are. You yourself listed "What should we be looking for" as something where they might be able to tell us to look for particular things that we wouldn't have realized needed looking for.
DB_Explorer said:
[x] Discuss the politics of Tokyo!
-[x] Hitomi and Madoka's thoughts on the matter. Focus on how any possibilities will influence your first meetings relative to your goals of future such as clear seed distribution. If you have too many ideas focus on Most likely case, Worst Case and Most Dangerous Cause.
- [X] Also Specifically figure out what you know, and what you DON'T know and what you wish you knew and what you NEED to know. This makes questions to answer that can shape our approach to negotiations and what to look for longer term. The questions you NEED to answer become priority.
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The "most likely, worst, most dangerous" exercise seems like a great way to screw ourselves up by motivating everything from fear. Also, Homura will get super angry at us for doing that with Madoka in the room. Other than that, I'm honestly not sure how this differs from my vote.
The Phoenixian said:
Also, Veb, as far as #milesgloriosus and others I think you need to focus. We may get to two IRCs this update. There is no way we are getting to three or more.
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DB_Explorer said:
edit: also IIRC milesgloriosus is in the US so trying to recruit them for walpy is a little...hard.
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There're some magic clauses you can add to sentences to account for possibilities like these without overcorrecting in the conservative direction and wasting updates, votes, or opportunities. They go something like this: "As time and attention permit" and "if reasonable". You'll find that I magically edited them into my vote before I even posted it, placed to resolve the issues you brought up. It's almost like I recognized that we might be limited by things other than our fingers, things like time and attention and physics, and accounted for them when writing the vote!
The Phoenixian said:
I think we should talk to Nyantokanyaru about Japan's local problem children instead of Iowa
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You will note that my vote asks about their local politics, and that the "standard routine" block after that asks about "Iowa and other threats".



[x] Discuss Tokyo politics with your cabinet
-[x] Try to nail down your own position. Goals are something like "Improve QoL by increasing stability by obviating resource contention", yes? Even taking uncertainty into account, what potential obstacles will you want to have an answer for?
-[x] Is the preservation of the current Tokyo political situation a goal or a non-goal? Do they think it'd be safe to try to recruit from Tokyo for Walpy?
-[x] What information should you focus on obtaining to guide future efforts? Toschimichi's power is obvious, but who should you try to talk to and what scuttlebutt should you go digging for? What would tell you the most about the obstacles and how to sidestep or address them?

[x] TO THE INTERNETS

-[x] Check email. Set up new-mail notifications, just in case.

-[x] Check back in with #nyantokanyaru.
--[x] Their reaction to you was a bit worrying. Is there someone other than Rionna going around ganking grief controllers or do grief controllers tend to be super territorial or something?
--[x] Ask about their local politics. With a grief controller acting as a force multiplier for a Clear Seed, you might want to get one to them sooner rather than later so they can share it around.
--[x] Also, Mitakihara has infinite cleansing and can accept refugees.
--[x] Talk Walpy. You are assembling an army. Even if they don't want to fight, it'd be great to have a grief controller with a clear seed to staff the trauma ward.
--[x] Ask if they know anything about the Iowa group. You're pretty sure they'll be gunning for you and you intend to do unto them before they do unto you.

-[x] #milesgloriosus and other channels as time and attention permit. Standard routine:
--[x] Introduce self, you're sending out feelers internationally and getting to know people, you have true cleansing, you want to help, share contact info, etc.
--[x] Mitakihara can accept refugees. You can refresh grief seeds if anyone is in urgent need.
--[x] Clear Seeds: Following what you told Nadia, inform if the group seems stable and helpful.
--[x] Gather information about Iowa and other threats, recruit for Walpy if reasonable.
---[x] Can segue from the Mitakihara refugee invite - "We can more or less guarantee safety, support, and peace, but we are expecting some inclement weather..."
 
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Vebyast said:
The "most likely, worst, most dangerous" exercise seems like a great way to screw ourselves up by motivating everything from fear. Also, Homura will get super angry at us for doing that with Madoka in the room. Other than that, I'm honestly not sure how this differs from my vote.
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I suppose I can re-word it. But the idea is to come up with likely course of actions Tokyo would do. They are going to have several options/possibilities hence the idea is to focus your planning on three of them. First is the most likely course of action/situation they would do and this is what you use for most of your planning. Worst case is basically what course of action or situation that would make us have the hardest time - this guides guided contingency planning. Most dangerous situation is the one possibility that puts us in the most risk and guides mitigation and defensive plans.

The whole idea is having Hitomi and Madoka help provide their point of view and opinions on the Tokyo situation. My post is not a direct set of lines for Sabrina to use so she could be more tactful about it I suppose. Even if we don't directly ask about something like the above Madoka is a smart girl and will figure out the same possibilities reguardless- I would rather shape the discussion so they come up now rather then having it as a shower thought later.

As for the difference, I stated it might not matter but I feel like the tone and general approach of your vote is too controlling - you refer to it as meeting with our cabniet, provide directives on goals, and generally to me it feels like a superior bringing their subordinates into a room and asking for thoughts on something they have a plan for.

My goal.for the discussion is to figure out Tokyo and/or figure out what we need to learn to figure out Tokyo. Each idea we have on whats going on will have a key fact or facts that prove or disprove it and thus if we find thise facts we can figure out which theory is right one.

Meeting goals can come tommarow, when we have more time befotr Hitomi has to leave.

I don't think we should have any ideas for goals with Tokyo beyond the basic diplomatic endstate we already have (coridal relations with safr grief seed distribution) simply because we don't know enough on how to implement that endstate, we have no idea what our sub-goals should be.

As for the IRC, no need to get patronizing over my comments that Miles is in the US and thus thoughts that recruitment for Walpy might not be possible.

Vebyast said:
It's almost like I recognized that we might be limited by things other than our fingers, things like time and attention and physics, and accounted for them when writing the vote!
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I can't help but have my first reading of this be in a sarcastic tone of voice. If that's not what you intended fine, I have issues on forums sometimes due to the lack of body language and tonal clues. If you did mean to be sarcastic... could you stop please? It makes it feel like you don't actually care about about the merits/flaws in my ideas and are merely dissmissing them.

Also it makes me feel like this is less a dicussion and more a confrontation or debate.

Just saying that your uses of "if possible" is meant to make it a contingency plan because magic means they might be able to get here.

I was just thinking that given the general issues magical girls have in surviving that asking a group to send forces halfway around the world for a higly lethal threat is...idk... but asking EVERYONE for help with Walpy from thr get go adds a skew to relationships I don't like. May make it feel like we just want friends to act as bodies to throw into the fight. Japanese groups are one thing given the power of Wallpy and their proximity but the other side of the pacific seems like its too much to ask for support before any actual friendship.

Edit: Tiny phone keyboard... this took so long to write. Again work soon, will try to make a comprehensive review of your vote after work.
 
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Okay, complete restructuring:

I think this covers most of what I intend to do, and I feel like it saves a lot of space and keeps things from getting too railroad-y.

[x] Tokyo political analysis
-[x] Goals:
--[x] Figure out how the local political situation will impact...
---[x] Cleansing trips
---[x] Clear seeds
---[x] Attempts to recruitment for walpurgis.
--[x] Figure out what information you should be seeking to better pursue your goals.
-[x] Approach:
--[x]This is Madoka and Hitomi's show. Give them input where desired, but try not to railroad them.

[x] Dinner!
[x] Take a moment to check your emails. (Consider making this a nightly thing)
[x] Visit IRCs: #nyantokanyaru, #milesgloriosus
-[x] Goals:
--[x] Further establish good relations, share any contact information you haven't yet.
--[x] Gain an understanding of them and their local situation and politics.
--[x] Make your offers, clear seeds and hiring for Walpurgisnacht
--[x] Ask around for information on Iowa and Japanese grief controllers.
-[x] Approach
--[x] Friendly, polite. Ask how amenable people are talking business and asking around for intel before doing so.
-[x] Potential specifics
--[x] Add need to defend it to standard clear seed warnings.
--[x] Tell Hatsumi you'd be interested in working with her to try and copy what you can do, one way or another.
--[x] Ask how long forsees their situation remaining stable. Weeks? Months?
 
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if the idea of magical girls gaining powers from those involved in their dewitching is true, and honestly the more I think about it the more likely it would seem that to be the truth, although I'm not willing to put all my eggs in that basket, then would girls we help dewitch end up gaining our "true" grief bending?
 
To start off I think its clear basically everyone who bothers to vote or offer a thought on this agree on what actions to do and likely why. That is we have a majority behind the idea of discussing Tokyo's political situation and then follow up on IRC. I think the differences are in approach to doing both those actions which might stem from differences in basic goals.

Also the disagreements on the IRC and the Political discussions are different in specifics even if they both stem from differences in basic goals.

The idea behind my vote is that the discussion of Tokyo politics was to help come to an understanding of Tokyo politics, at least understanding as much as we can with what we know. Concrete goals would come over the next day or so as we get more information. We have course of a general goal for Tokyo but its basically just our high level goal of breaking the system and lifting magical girls out of this hobbesian nightmare. For me this discussion is to come up with ideas and theories on how Tokyo politics operates and then figure out what we need to prove or disprove each of those ideas. Given this is politics rather than math or biology or physics we are going to likely have several theories to prove or disprove with limited time. So I tried to offer a guidance to narrow down the theories to the ones judged as most likely, most difficult and most hazardous.

Vebyast's vote is more focused on developing an actual policy, that is an actual approach and goal that helps get us to the higher goal of breaking the system. The new vote changes the language but the earlier versions of the vote felt like the tone was too controlling. Also I think trying to combine events like discussing our own negotiating position and trying to work out what Tokyo's deal is putting too much into the scene and that's likely to result in Sabrina forcing the conversation into nailing policy down even if people are still trying to work on how Tokyo works.

Ideally we figure out what we need to know tonight and can spend tomorrow working out how to answer those questions. That way when we have a position it takes all the details we can find into account.

As for the IRC vote. My idea was again more intelligence and awareness focused rather than diplomacy. I want to just touch base with these groups again and see what information I can get on 1) their own groups and 2) another group of interest they know (Iowa and Tokyo). That one of the IRC's is for a local group also means we can make an offer to meet with them and discuss things like helping fight Walpy and discussing Clear seeds. I would rather have those actual negotations occur in person at a time of mutal agreement rather then walking into the IRC late in the evening and dropping it on them.

I know Forum vs quest time can be a hassle to consider but I think trying to remember the actual amount of time we have to handle things would make Sabrina better at social things like this, because most people spread things out. Negotiations occur over several meetings, friendships build over time along with trust and so forth. People also need their own time to process.

Breaking up something into smaller steps spread over the day will keep us from making and debating huge votes (not this these votes are that big) that get dropped as situations change and allow us to keep Sabrina from running people over roughshoud. I mean rather then use Sabrina's massive planning abilties to do things in one go we could just get multiple things running and run them in parallel - we just need to watch the scheduling.

In short I think trying to make the vote include dicussing the politics and making the position in one sitting is trying to make things go to fast without allowing more information flow in even over the next 24 hours. Simillarly I think dropping in to say hi, checking in on IRC groups, getting information from them and then trying to engage in diplomacy rather then work out a time and place for a meeting is all a little much to do in one session late in the evening unannounced.
 
DB_Explorer said:
Sabrina forcing the conversation into nailing policy down even if people are still trying to work on how Tokyo works.
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We don't need to know anything at all about Tokyo to figure out what our goals are. Like, I don't have to know anything at all about the guts of a car engine to know that a reasonable target for an engineering project might be "improve fuel efficiency in real-world conditions by >5% while increasing cost-of-manufacture by <5%." With a project that's as wide-open as this one is, getting everyone on the same page at the beginning is critical. We need to constrain the scope so we don't get distracted and we need to establish clear goals which will allow us to begin figuring out what we need to know that we don't yet know and identify lines of inquiry and effect.

The questions I'm posing in my politics-vote are intended to lead us to that kind of conscious review of our project's goals. So: What are our top-level goals and non-goals, e.g. Do we need to go out of our way to preserve the existing geopolitical situation in Tokyo, or do we think that it's safe to assume that the introduction of Clear Seeds will stabilize the system enough that we only need to ensure a smooth transition and we do not need to explicitly maintain the status quo? What is Tokyo's center of mass and points of leverage? If we don't know enough to figure out the current systems' key feedback loops, what information are we lacking and where/how are we most likely to find it?

I agree that the action items we're likely to get out of this are more along the lines of "You need to figure out why they do that rotation" and "You need to figure out Toschimichi's power" and "You need to figure out what kinds of grievances groups hold against each other" and "You need to figure out how many groups would keep causing trouble even if you give them a Clear Seed". I agree that the actual directives we're going to get are along the lines of "Don't agree to anything with anyone" and "Assume that someone intends to ride your disruption to power and is messing with your information."
DB_Explorer said:
Breaking up something into smaller steps spread over the da
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I do not think that the thread is capable of maintaining focus. I intend to hand as much of the analysis off to Madoka and Hitomi as is physically possible, which is unfortunately far less than I want to because they can't be on the scene with us or probably even listening to a wire.
DB_Explorer said:
without allowing more information flow in even over the next 24 hours
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I think that we have time in-quest right now and that we can do quite a bit more with that time than you think. I think that what we do in this half-hour meeting could massively improve the quality of information we gain over the next 24 hours because we will know what we're trying to do and will have a bit more background on how to do it. If nothing else, having a short "how to politics" checklist from Madoka and Hitomi would be astoundingly useful for keeping the thread on-mission in the votes we're going to be having about this three or four months from now, and this is an excellent chance to obtain that way up front where it will have the greatest cumulative benefit.
The Phoenixian said:
--[x] Figure out what information you should be seeking to better pursue your goals.
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We need to figure out what our goals are in Tokyo. My motivating example for this item is the earlier discussion of whether we should be willing to consider solutions in which we topple the Tokyo Council and guarantee peace by giving everyone Clear Seeds or if we should set out with the assumption that we will work within the existing system.
The Phoenixian said:
--[x] Ask around for information on Iowa and Japanese grief controllers.
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In the spirit of the feedback you provided on my vote: Why are you asking #milesgloriosus about Japanese grief controllers?
 
Vebyast said:
In the spirit of the feedback you provided on my vote: Why are you asking #milesgloriosus about Japanese grief controllers?
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Veb? I'm aware that it's been getting harder and harder for me to read through and examine votes as time has gone on and more and more has piled up and that I haven't been as careful or considerate as I really want to be.

But this? This just hurts.
 
[Jk] Voting too complicated, go back to the alley

Random thought on keep quest on track - set phone reminders every hour : p

Phone exists inside quest timeline, phone will remember, phone will remind us.

Phone does not forget.
 
what do y'all think the odds are that hitomis mom isn't the only adult that knows about magical girls? cause honestly I've been trying to wrap my head around that one scene in episode eleven and the only way I can decipher it is that kaname Junkies either was a potential or knew a magical girl as a kid and learned the harsh truths behind the system
 
soulsguardian said:
what do y'all think the odds are that hitomis mom isn't the only adult that knows about magical girls?
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Pretty good, but I don't think Junko is one of them. Her advice basically boiled down to "fuck up now when it doesn't matter", which is generally okay advice for middle schoolers but if she knew about magical girls she would know that it could matter very much.
 
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Torgamous said:
Pretty good, but I don't think Jun is one of them. Her advice basically boiled down to "fuck up now when it doesn't matter", which is generally okay advice for middle schoolers but if she knew about magical girls she would know that it could matter very much.
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well we know for a fact that hitomis mom started thinking of the whole magical girl business as being a childhood imagination until she started seeing evidence that it is in fact very real, it could have easily been the same for Junko until Sayaka turned up dead, people tend yo assume that bad things happen to other people, not to them or those they care about
 
Social goals? If I didn't know better, that would be a political concern... [/humor]

In a reasonable continuity, I can parse that Sabrina didn't start out with more than one social / political concern involving Tokyo.
The reduction of misery, suffering and death, particularly as involves Magical Girls.

They (Chiyoda Group) seem to require a 'political interface' if we want to try a negotiated route to get our goal met.
Our goal is neatly embodied as a Clear Seed, both symbol and means in one.
Sabrina didn't need to deal in a political manner, I think we are doing this as an act of respect, leading to expeditious conclusion.
And that is fine.

The long view I am offering here would say "we don't care how their system runs, as long as girls are not confined, and they aren't being made to suffer or die." Trying to lock out free cleansing, even if we carefully present ourselves and allow them to transition in a comfortable manner, is a condition that we should not accept.
I really have an interest in a system that guarantees Grief cleansing, and upholds all basic human rights. It would also be nice to establish friendships. I'm OK with a united Tokyo, under current leadership if they are willing to be decent people. I'm OK with a Tokyo of unaffiliated territories, as long as they don't compete and fight.
To that end, our political think-tank is best set to find out what is on the minds of the contrasting groups in Tokyo, both now and in the past. All our other negotiating choices come down to understanding the motive behind refusal, and the measure of morality for Chiyoda Group / Toshimichi Akane. The morality decision is ongoing, as the most important fact has yet to be determined. When a better choice is truly in front of them, will they act in a way that helps every girl, or only themselves?

Out of the possible ways we can interact with Tokyo, it seems right that we choose based upon what intent they are pursuing.

Torgamous said:
Pretty good, but I don't think Jun is one of them. Her advice basically boiled down to "fuck up now when it doesn't matter", which is generally okay advice for middle schoolers but if she knew about magical girls she would know that it could matter very much.
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Yes, Junko is likely to give very nice parenting in all other ways, so this was confirming the "Mom just doesn't understand" error.

Everything is fixable. I can't wait. We really have to try this.
 
Back in the day, the Shogun would have the various Daimyo of Japan pack up and move to his court every couple years for a bunch of meetings and ceremonies-- not necessarily because the ceremonies themselves were important, but because it got them away from their seats of power and forced them to waste resources, which promoted stability by reducing their ability to revolt against the Shogunate. Toshimichi shuffling Magi between the various groups in Tokyo could be for the same reason: It lowers group cohesion and overall combat effectiveness, ensuring no group gets too powerful that the threat of overwhelming retaliation can't keep them in line.
 
Always Happening said:
Back in the day, the Shogun would have the various Daimyo of Japan pack up and move to his court every couple years for a bunch of meetings and ceremonies-- not necessarily because the ceremonies themselves were important, but because it got them away from their seats of power and forced them to waste resources, which promoted stability by reducing their ability to revolt against the Shogunate. Toshimichi shuffling Magi between the various groups in Tokyo could be for the same reason: It lowers group cohesion and overall combat effectiveness, ensuring no group gets too powerful that the threat of overwhelming retaliation can't keep them in line.
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If I remember my history books correctly, it was also so the visiting nobles could be used as ah, hostages, in the event the Daimyo's families tried to make a power play while one of them was at court.

...Which opens up another interesting angle on why the girls are shuffled through the Chiyoda group so much. Who's going to kick up a big fuss against the people they need to keep their best friend safe while fighting for their lives against Witches?

On an unrelated note, I understand we can't have a neat and easy solution because politics and crab bucket mentality and the deadlock of the Tokyo Council keeping everyone conveniently in line, but it is frustrating that if the Tokyo groups are concerned about who gets the Clear Seeds first, why can't we just have a meeting where a representative from every group shows up with a spare Grief Seed, and we just go down the line emptying them out so that every group gets one roughly at the same time, surrounded by a veritable army of magical girls.

But, of course, we can't do that because the problem isn't actually who gets it first, but that the struggle for resources and crab bucket situation are Features of the Tokyo council system, not Bugs.
 
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