So to clarify, would you contend that in isolation (rather than in terms of representative trends in behavior etc.) Kakara's attempted mental alteration qualifies as "something horrible"? If yes, why? (again, bearing in mind that it represents a meaningfully smaller deprivation of agency than actual death would, what with its intrinsically temporary character even absent active efforts to contravene it)
I do. And I have already explained that it is horrible because of how flagrantly and utterly it denies the victims dignity as an autonomous person. Rather than as a tool for what Kakara wants.
I do. And I have already explained that it is horrible because of how flagrantly and utterly it denies the victims dignity as an autonomous person. Rather than as a tool for what Kakara wants.
Okay, so we've transitioned from a question of autonomy to a question of "sanctity." Could you expand on what you mean by that? I think we may have an issue of differing axioms here but I'd like to understand yours in any case.
Okay, so we've transitioned from a question of autonomy to a question of "sanctity." Could you expand on what you mean by that? I think we may have an issue of differing axioms here but I'd like to understand yours in any case.
It's still a matter of autonomy. I'm just using sanctity rhetorically. The only reason it is "sacred" is that it is the core of the agency and autonomy of a thinking being. To be forcibly changed by outside mechanisms, whether by drugs and torture, unconsenting brain surgery, or magic mind control, it still denies utterly the dignity of a person as more than an object to be manipulated to whatever purpose without regard to their wellbeing or desires beyond instrumentally to your ends.
It's still a matter of autonomy. I'm just using sanctity rhetorically. The only reason it is "sacred" is that it is the core of the agency and autonomy of a thinking being. To be forcibly changed by outside mechanisms, whether by drugs and torture, unconsenting brain surgery, or magic mind control, it still denies utterly the dignity of a person as more than an object to be manipulated to whatever purpose without regard to their wellbeing or desires beyond instrumentally to your ends.
Okay, in that case, would you argue that knocking someone out in combat counts? You're depriving them entirely of thought, which would seem to be at least as bad as slightly adjusting those thoughts into a plausible new pattern.
I mean, Kakara has a lot of her social credit from being hereditary nobility, but frankly that's not even close to the majority of it. Her achieving the spirit bomb is at best tangentially related, and is by itself more than sufficient social capital for this; this isn't true for quite the same extent with golden oozaru, but it's mostly true there too.
Would you not have supported threatening him into silence, were we credibly able to do so? If not, how much more likely to rat us out would he have to be before you were?
It's still a matter of autonomy. I'm just using sanctity rhetorically. The only reason it is "sacred" is that it is the core of the agency and autonomy of a thinking being. To be forcibly changed by outside mechanisms, whether by drugs and torture, unconsenting brain surgery, or magic mind control, it still denies utterly the dignity of a person as more than an object to be manipulated to whatever purpose without regard to their wellbeing or desires beyond instrumentally to your ends.
Is this an consequential axiom, a virtue axiom, is a game theoretic axiom?
Or, to unpack, do you not support mind control under any circumstances because:
-Mind Control is so bad it breaks all scales. There is no outcome of a situation that can justify mind control, because no weight on the other end of the scales can possibly weigh up, be it Death or torture or whatever (optional whether or not preventing other mind control is a worthwhile use of mind control)?
-Mind Control is a bad thing irrespective of outcomes. Someone mind controlling someone else may well end up in a better endpoint than them not doing so, but them doing the mind control isn't okay so even when other calculations suggest otherwise mind control must continue to be taboo?
-Being the kind of person who mind controls people is a bad thing, because of the knock on effects; using mind control to stop someone may get better results in the same way that shooting through a hostage to stop someone from setting off a bomb is better but distracts you from searching for opportunities to sacrifice neither?
You're not literally turning them into a meat puppet that has to watch from inside their mind/eyes as their body actively does things against their will with no recourse.
Like, can you understand that "you are now unconscious when you did not want to be" is not, in fact, the exact same thing as "you are now trapped in your mind watching your body brutally murder your comrades"?
You're not literally turning them into a meat puppet that has to watch from inside their mind/eyes as their body actively does things against their will with no recourse.
Like, can you understand that "you are now unconscious when you did not want to be" is not, in fact, the exact same thing as "you are now trapped in your mind watching your body brutally murder your comrades"?
That's not the sort of mind control actually potentially in play here, though. There's no "watching from the inside," Kakara was just going to put a thought in the merchant's head which to him would have been (if it worked) indistinguishable from one he had on his own.
I favor deontology. So #2, is bad innately irrespective of outcomes. The third is also true, but is less a factor in my reasoning than the second because it is more a prudential thing than an absolute thing.
If I didn't know this was a typo I'd say yuck Kakara is underage.
But I'm pretty sure this is a typo.
I favor deontology. So #2, is bad innately irrespective of axioms. The third is also true, but is less a factor in my reasoning than the second because it is more a prudential thing than an absolute thing.
Yeah, that's supposed to be rat. E and R are tragically close on my phone, and it's a far less forgiving type than many others would be .
From there, what privileges capability to perform mind control in this way that doesn't also privilege social acumen, access to psychological research, monetary resource imbalance, social capital, access to drugs, physical power disparity, and legal power disparities?
General note that this is a fascinating topic and somewhat applicable to Kakara at this moment, but let's keep the subject germane to Kakara in particular; I'm sure mind control as a general principle would be a great thread for...erm...War & Peace? Maybe the Chat Lounge.
But yeah, if we're talking mind control, let's ensure that it's mind control as Kakara may choose to implement it. If, for instance, Dazarel is ever returned his powers and is at least minimally willing to deploy them on request.
In the case of having Dazarel do mind control for us, as I may have made clear, my position on having Dazarel act depends on several factors:
Strong: How much is being changed, how great the benefit is, how sure the benefit is, how sure of the information are we, how confident I am that dazarel will do what we want
Moderately strong: the target's feelings on that type of mind control, how likely we are to be noticed at mind control, how bad being noticed would be, availability of other options
Weak: how much Dazarel enjoys doing it
With meta level concerns like: "how much does the player base accept mind control" and "how interesting of a story would this be" factoring not at all into the moral utility part of the equation, but instead acting as gatekeeping for what kind of outcomes of the aforementioned equation are permissible.
Hey, folks, in case you've been wondering where I've been, I recently got absolutely livid at an utter shit heap of a book called Victoria: A Novel of Fourth Generation War. It depicts the collapse of the US at the hands of an utterly vile separatist regime. I am professionally, ethically, and personally offended on every level by the book, and I decided to fire back the way authors tend to fire back.
In short, I got pissed enough to break my rule of only two major non-profit projects at a time. New quest. Anybody who wants to run a nation fighting neo-fascists in the ruins of post-collapse North America, head on over! We're in the middle of faction selection now.
And while I'm here, vote closed.
EDIT: Not a lot of interest in this vote, huh? Ah, well.
[X] Find somewhere here to look inconspicuous, and hope they pass you by. Extremely slow, but risk-free...unless they for some reason decide that this passage in particular demands a thorough sweep beyond simply inspecting traffic.
-[X] Make sure our hiding place is in close proximity to a window.
-[X] If any of the refugees come within range, scan their minds to determine how thoroughly they plan to inspect this passage.
--[X] If the answer is "well enough to find us," default to the "blast out a window" plan.
Adhoc vote count started by Pittauro on Mar 6, 2019 at 12:52 PM, finished with 22 posts and 9 votes.
[X] Find somewhere here to look inconspicuous, and hope they pass you by. Extremely slow, but risk-free...unless they for some reason decide that this passage in particular demands a thorough sweep beyond simply inspecting traffic.
-[X] Make sure our hiding place is in close proximity to a window.
-[X] If any of the refugees come within range, scan their minds to determine how thoroughly they plan to inspect this passage.
--[X] If the answer is "well enough to find us," default to the "blast out a window" plan.
[X] Ask Bassoon if he wants to risk you empowering his magic right now, and whether you should hide long enough to test it first.
-[X] If yes, and it doesn't work immediately, try treating your 'ki' as a Psi talent.
-[X] If no, just shoot your way out. You'll be on Combat Precog if you can.
[X] Find somewhere here to look inconspicuous, and hope they pass you by. Extremely slow, but risk-free...unless they for some reason decide that this passage in particular demands a thorough sweep beyond simply inspecting traffic.
[X] Blast out a window and bypass their roadblock by space. A bit slow since you need to work your way around the unfamiliar station exterior, but fairly low-risk. Of course, if they find you, you're in a pretty bad spot.
[X] Find somewhere here to look inconspicuous, and hope they pass you by. Extremely slow, but risk-free...unless they for some reason decide that this passage in particular demands a thorough sweep beyond simply inspecting traffic.
-[X] Make sure our hiding place is in close proximity to a window.
-[X] If any of the refugees come within range, scan their minds to determine how thoroughly they plan to inspect this passage.
--[X] If the answer is "well enough to find us," default to the "blast out a window" plan.
Ghosting Strategy
Bassoon hums. 'I could try to sneak past. If I caused a distraction...'
Your eyes widen. "No, wait, we don't need to risk it at all!" You cast your eyes around the image in the sky. "There! The back table in the restaurant, it's by a window! Sit down there and make sure you have a line of sight to Tariq!"
Bassoon's eyebrow twitches, but he ducks into the restaurant without argument. He orders something to drink and waits. 'You're pretty confident. What do you have in mind?'
"I can still read minds," you say, staring hard at Tariq. "Barely, but there's a little juice left. Come on..." You reach out once more in that odd manner as before and get the same flurry of sense impressions.
Tariq is bored and frustrated. He doesn't want to be here, and he really wants to be gone. He has an idea of where Bassoon will be -- not here, not Little Arcosa, somewhere else -- and he wants to go there. He's staying because...stubbornness?
You growl quietly to yourself and shake your head. "This is so vague."
Dazarel stirs himself. 'Focus. This mind is not your own. He will think differently. Stop targeting it quite so precisely and just focus on the flow of thoughts.'
You release an annoyed sigh, but that does make some sense. You widen your focus, looking less at the sense impressions and more at where they're going. The stubbornness flows into certainty -- Bassoon isn't likely to be here, but he might pass through here. That flows into patience -- it's due diligence to check, and they have other checkpoints all over the station. Finally, resolution -- they'll wait another ten minutes, and-
pop
You gasp as the connection breaks with the flare of a slight headache. "Ow."
'You would seem to have reached your limits,' remarks Dazarel. 'Shame. Did you get what we needed?'
"Yeah, I got it," you grouse, rubbing at your temple. "Bassoon, we have ten minutes before they move on!"
Bassoon sighs. 'Ten minutes is a long time in this situation, but...they're not going to search this hallway?'
"Tariq barely wants to be here," you reply. "They're just trying to limit our movement. He's going to move on soon."
Bassoon shakes his head as his drink arrives. 'Fantastic. Well, it's cutting things close, but I'll take it over the risk. All right, Kakara. We'll do it your way, this time.'
"Thank you, Bassoon," you reply, settling in to watch. "This'll turn out okay."
* * *
The following ten minutes are likely the most fruitlessly tense in your entire life. You've never had to sit so still for so long before, while under threat and helpless to do anything proactive about it.
Still, once those minutes have passed, the refugees do move on.
You watch as Tariq, increasingly agitated, snorts, tossing his head in annoyance. "THAT'S IT!" he bellows, making the whole hallway flinch. "HE'S NOT COMING THROUGH HERE! LET'S GO! WE'RE HEADING FOR HIS HIDEY-HOLE." With that, he stomps off, his soldiers falling in behind him. Bassoon slowly tenses and they pass by the restaurant, only relaxing once they're out of sight. He waits a few moments longer, then drops payment for his drink on the table and rises.
'Back to the ship, then,' he says.
"And time to get out of here," you agree.
'I don't know, I quite liked it here,' sniffs Dazarel.
'That's because you like watching other people squirm,' growls Bassoon.
'Naturally.'
"Later, please!" you say, as Bassoon passes into the eerie stillness of Little Arcosa. The silence grates on your nerves.
It doesn't help when that silence shatters under the sound of distant voices.
'Damn it,' says Bassoon. 'They've started searching the quarter. We need to move.' He breaks into a run, darting down the hallways on his way back to the hangar where you left your ship. The voices slowly fade into the distance, and as you round the final corner, you hope that you've lost them.
Bassoon pulls up at the sight of an open door and spits something in his own language that sounds absolutely vile.
"Oh, no," you say in a faint voice.
"...believe our luck?" you hear a woman saying from through the door. "He has a lot of balls, hiding this here, of all places."
"He doesn't have balls at all, Sheera," chuckles somebody else.
"Oh, shut up," says Sheera. "You know what I mean."
Bassoon stealthily draws up to the doorframe and peers around it. 'Five of them,' he says.
You narrow your eyes at them. "Seven hundred thousand...eight hundred thousand...one million, four hundred thousand...three million, nine hundred thousand...ten million. Kais on high, what have you outer-galaxy folk been eating since the Exile started?"
'Humility,' snorts Bassoon. 'Your ancestors were a great motivator.' He mumbles a spell under his breath. 'I'm not picking up on any mages.'
'And I sense no psychic potential from any of them,' says Dazarel.
"Your abilities are sealed," you snap, giving him a suspicious glare.
'I still have senses,' he replies, scowling at you. 'There's a feel to a psychic that one can get used to picking up. I'll teach you later.'
'Point is, I can take this group,' says Bassoon, shutting down the conversation. 'We're going to have to-' He ducks back behind the door frame as one of the refugees turns around.
"I'm going to call the boss," he says, getting closer to the door. "See if you can't crack that thing open!"
"What if he's inside?" says Sheera. "We can't take him without you!"
You feel out the approaching man's power level. "He's the ten million."
'Got it,' replies Bassoon.
The refugee sighs. "If he was here, he'd already have come out the ship. Or just lifted off. You'll be fine."
Bassoon tenses as the man approaches the door frame.
You have reached the ship, but refugees are here. What do you suggest Bassoon deal with them, board the ship, and escape? Worth emphasizing at this point is that you are suggesting, and that given the current time limits, if Bassoon for some reason disagrees he will simply go with what he thinks he should do instead. Kakara is fairly confident that Bassoon will probably accept one of the following suggestions:
[ ][PLAN] Attack the strong one coming your way and take him out of the fight before the others can react. Then it'll be an easy fight.
[ ][PLAN] Let this guy pass you, get past him, and take down the weaker ones. Then you can fight him without distraction.
Kakara has also considered the following, but is less confident that Bassoon will take it:
[ ][PLAN] Let this guy pass you and use magic to incapacitate the others. If you can do it quietly, you can get onto the ship and lift off before this guy notices anything out of place.
Finally, while there is the risk of uncertainty, you are as ever at full liberty to propose a
[ ][PLAN] Write-in.
MANUAL MORATORIUM; APPROVAL VOTING.
I'm writing so much over these past few days!
Hope you enjoyed the update, folks! We're clearing Zebul soon, and heading on our way to New Namek once more! There'll be at least one more stop along the way, though, even assuming that you have no more run-ins with Tariq.
Also, while we're here, I've a question. How are we liking the new format? I know the switch away from the yearly format was controversial at the time; I'd like to take the mood and see how we like what's come since. Do we prefer the new approach? Do we miss the old one? Or do you think I should do something new?
[ ][FORMAT] I miss the yearly format. AP plans were fun.
[ ][FORMAT] I enjoy the new format.
[ ][FORMAT] I have a different idea in mind, and of course am perfectly willing to also
-[ ] write in what that idea is.
Looking forward to seeing your thoughts, everybody. I'll see you around the thread!
I think using the element of surprise on the strongest fighter is the best bet. If we clear the weaker ones, there's probably not much they can do to stop us, but they couldn't do that anyway. Realistically, no one else is going to be very able to touch us regardless; maybe the 3 million guy, but a sevenfold gap is enormous. To put it into perspective, the gap between most of these fighters and Bassoon is more than the gap between a new SSj and a FPSSj, and thus more than the gap between Yammar and house Talt. Numbers almost certainly aren't going to tell, if they can even react in time at the speed Bassoon fights to matter.
[ ][PLAN] Attack the strong one coming your way and take him out of the fight before the others can react. Then it'll be an easy fight.
E: As for the yearly format, I think I preferred it under the AP system, but not to a significant margin and I like the current system as well; I'm mostly agnostic on that debate
[X] I miss the yearly format. AP plans were fun.
As an opinion-gauging poll, I assume this part isn't under moratorium?
I personally felt quite strongly at the time that I greatly preferred the yearly AP system. I... haven't changed my opinion on that to be perfectly honest - I've always been a fan of the more game-y elements of quests, and liked being able to plan out and dedicate time to training and the like. But the problem with saying definitively that I don't like the new system as much is that the recent period of the quest has been very, very abnormal by previous standards. I can't tell if the lack of real training and that sense of progress, that we're improving, is because of the new system or because we've just not had any time to do anything but react to crises, or even if our not having any time to do any is in part due to the new system not allowing real planning.
I also didn't really understand the apparent constraints the previous system imposed. It apparently required that arcs fit neatly into discrete years - I wasn't entirely clear why they couldn't just span across them organically regardless of where the yearly planning fell, but as I'm not a writer it could just be I'm not seeing something that's very obvious to you.
So, this might be a stupid question but what is preventing any of tgem from blowing up/damaging the ship? Even the weakest among them is probably strong enough for that. Unless Bassoon has a masterdegree on fixing ship with magic, sort of like:
"Hey Piccolo, can you make a space ship with magic?"
"That is not how it works"
"Not even a Namekian ship?"
"..."
"SPACE SHIP BEAM"
As for the format... well, both have their place. The new one is better for story bit but the yearly format was more comfortable to see how we advanced or choose what we focused on. I think the main drawback of the yearly one was that there were things that wouldn't take more than a month yet we were stuck waiting a year before the next logical step which was weird during the conspiracy. Maybe design the shorter actions so that they are like several in a row andwe choose as the objectives are completed or assign a number of AP for the time Kakara has and instead of yearly actions with a set number of AP we choose what we replace those actions with as we complete them, then vote if we drop any actions we are performing at regular intervals.
Like, if we voted for seer training and style training then they are trained until they are done to the next level and when we reach that we choose whether to continue or train something else. Same for every action. Then instead of yearly votes for what we do, the yearly vote is a list of current commitments and if we want to drop one to do something else.
That way we keep the convenience of yearly plans but the story can be written as it is now with the non interesting parts happening in the background and us being able to adjust to new developments as they come without being constrained to yearly arcs. Those plans would be reserved for the grinding and long term commitments while the plot remains in the current week to week format.
I personally think that the yearly format was a good fit for being on garenhuld, but I have no idea what it would look like now, when we don't have a stable place. If we do end up on Namek training, then I kind of like the yearly format so...
[X] I miss the yearly format. AP plans were fun.
But the problem with saying definitively that I don't like the new system as much is that the recent period of the quest has been very, very abnormal by previous standards. I can't tell if the lack of real training and that sense of progress, that we're improving, is because of the new system or because we've just not had any time to do anything but react to crises, or even if our not having any time to do any is in part due to the new system not allowing real planning.
It'd help if any skill improvements were highlighted at the end of the chapter, I think, whether they lead to the skill being bumped up or not.
e:
Actually:
[X] I have a different idea in mind, and of course am perfectly willing to also
-[X] Highlight skill improvements at the end of the chapter, whether they lead to the skill being bumped up or not.
I liked having formal discussion of priorities for things like training and self-improvement. I wouldn't mind dropping the formal nature of the AP system, but I'd like for us to get to vote on training priorities again, things like that. As it stands, most of our votes have been purely reactive to some pressing, urgent situation, and there have been few opportunities to say "whoa wait, hold the phone, we need to think about X."
After Kakara re-establishes some kind of 'normal,' we're definitely going to want to apply the lessons learned from our defeat at Dandeer's hands. In particular, to keep using more of our resources, planning ahead proactively, and making sure that parts of any plan we create that we aren't running under our direct supervision don't fall apart. Things like that. Which, again, is hard to do if each individual vote is just "so what do you do in response to this specific event?"