Muramasa
Best Girl
Out of concern, what part of Godwinsons vote do you believe constitutes Sabrina being a bad friend to Homu?
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Out of concern, what part of Godwinsons vote do you believe constitutes Sabrina being a bad friend to Homu?
- Location
- Illinois
- Location
- Illinois
And where, pray tell, would you see the IC precedent for it?
We're not exactly what you'd call close with Sayaka and Madoka. To be honest, I think Homura probably has a clearer idea of their relationship than we do.
And let's be clear -- the trauma "line" is the *entirety* of that vote. If I'm missing something desirable that it has besides that I'll add it.
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Muramasa
Best Girl
I actually think we are decently close to Sayaka. I'm not convinced she'd just go off and tell Madoka everything we tell her here. Especially if we asked her not to.
That said, I agree the vote could use better wording even if I feel the approach in broad strokes is okay.
- Location
- Illinois
Follow-up:
Perhaps I should be more thorough. Homura doesn't want Madoka to know about her past. She's explicitly told us that she isn't comfortable with Sayaka knowing her story for the given reason that that's too close to Madoka. This is like A+B=C -- we have clear indication Homura isn't comfortable with this disclosure, and we've made every motion to indicate that we're complying with her comfort zone for the time being. Don't violate the implied and extended trust.
Perhaps I should be more thorough. Homura doesn't want Madoka to know about her past. She's explicitly told us that she isn't comfortable with Sayaka knowing her story for the given reason that that's too close to Madoka. This is like A+B=C -- we have clear indication Homura isn't comfortable with this disclosure, and we've made every motion to indicate that we're complying with her comfort zone for the time being. Don't violate the implied and extended trust.
Muramasa
Best Girl
I will make an addendum that Homura is uncomfortable talking about the loops with Sayaka, but she is considering it after we spoke to her about it. And I don't recall if Homura specified a reason why she's uncomfortable talking about it. I mean, we can make well reasoned guesses, with link to Madoka being one of them but I think the answer is more complicated then that.
Does the trauma line violate trust? I don't know. That's really a murky gray area for me. Are there safer ways of talking about this that still gets the point across? Yeah, I think so.
Does the trauma line violate trust? I don't know. That's really a murky gray area for me. Are there safer ways of talking about this that still gets the point across? Yeah, I think so.
Muramasa
Best Girl
Thought I'd drop in my own vote. Maybe something like this would appeal?
[x] Answer her. That's a good part of it. Yes.
[x] Why? The short answer is Homura cares for Madoka very much and is doing the best she can to keep her safe.
[x] The long answer is complicated and involves things I can't tell you and aren't mine to tell. I was hoping one day she'd tell you herself.
[x] Homura has her reasons. They are good ones and they'll make complete sense to you once you have the context but only then.
[x] Sayaka? She's a good person. Just... be patient with her okay? Things are hard for her.
[x] Answer her. That's a good part of it. Yes.
[x] Why? The short answer is Homura cares for Madoka very much and is doing the best she can to keep her safe.
[x] The long answer is complicated and involves things I can't tell you and aren't mine to tell. I was hoping one day she'd tell you herself.
[x] Homura has her reasons. They are good ones and they'll make complete sense to you once you have the context but only then.
[x] Sayaka? She's a good person. Just... be patient with her okay? Things are hard for her.
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- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
There is a way to make this an equivalent question:
Would Homura think that our using the word trauma violates her trust?
Answering Sayaka's question definitively is something I want to avoid ATM.
Particularly since we don't have an agreement about that answer with Homura.
The recognition "That's a good part of it. Yes." is fine, not a problem. Truth is truth, and Sayaka is confirming what she sees. I agree there.
Homura could choose to admit something else to Sayaka, without broaching the Loopbomb etc. Or she could decide to run away from the question. I doubt Homura would grant "full security clearance" at this time. Three options - or more? Tell me.
Any form of this talk pits "pre-Sabrina Homura" against her evolving situation. In the looped past, the answer would have been "close off Sayaka as much as possible." Now, that is not the favorable response. Homura still may not be ready to handle the conversation well, and this is both why we need to help, and why having the conversation is relevant.
Whatever direction Homura takes her answer in, our position is to give her "space" and suggestions that will let her use emotional intelligence that has been rusting away. It isn't about steering her, it is about letting her choice of "share" or "don't share" happen without damaging the progress she is making towards Sayaka.
The "Homura cares for Madoka very much" is something that isn't a secret, but isn't ours to tell if Homura could speak for herself. She can, and that is what she might do. But it must be her choice in a relaxed venue like this.
Could we play our position as a representative, and make the choice go away? Or make the choice for her?
Yes. And it would work fine for a while IMHO.
That representative style of interaction is wrong here, because we have a much better choice.
Be the mediator.
As the mediator our possibility is expanded to make the talk happen on our timing, prevent Sayaka from poking things the wrong way by accident, and lending our support to Homura so she can do social moves that would have been difficult before.
What do we gain by doing a different response?
Muramasa
Best Girl
A frustrated Sayaka whose more inclined to start digging for answers on her own. Probably.
@HeroCycle. I don't see the reason to give Sayaka here absolutely nothing to work with. She's already figured out this much on her own. She's already acknowledged there are things we can't talk about with it being well implied she's going to respect that. Thus there are things we can say here and things we can't. I'm of the opinion you've drawn the line of what we can and can't say to Sayaka far too soon including things that are already out there and well established.
Not even being allowed to say 'Homura cares about Madoka very much'. This detail is already out there. It's been out there for ages OoC. There's no real reason why we can't say it.
I think it's safe to say we'd all prefer if it's Homura who in the end talks about her past to varying degree's. I think we all want that.
I don't think it's our role here to play mediator but to help convince Homura that it's alright to talk about at least some aspects of her past with her friends. And until then perhaps convince Sayaka to be patient and understanding with Homura's reluctance until she does.
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Catgirl's convinced me. Switching vote to
[X] Kaizuki
[X] Kaizuki
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Hmmm.
[x] Muramasa
Saying "Homura cares about Madoka, and it's for a good reason," doesn't violate Homura's trust in us, in my opinion.
Mura's right to say that Homu caring is something that's been obvious to everyone IC for ages, so this is literally just Sabrina explicitly approving of Homu's reasons, as opposed to the tacit approval that is Sabrina's lack of interference towards Homura from Sayaka's perspective.
[x] Muramasa
Saying "Homura cares about Madoka, and it's for a good reason," doesn't violate Homura's trust in us, in my opinion.
Mura's right to say that Homu caring is something that's been obvious to everyone IC for ages, so this is literally just Sabrina explicitly approving of Homu's reasons, as opposed to the tacit approval that is Sabrina's lack of interference towards Homura from Sayaka's perspective.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
Kai? I think you're overreacting just a little right now.
[x] Muramasa
[x] Muramasa
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
There is a stereotyped reason to go slow. Our words here could be defining social status. That has to do with "identity" and incomplete emotional maturity. Kids get upset by this stuff. We would like to be correct, but not create stress. As a player, is is easy for me to just say "solved that." We have full insight. The required steps are not trivial.
I agree, other friends are seeing the same thing using inference. They don't know how deep this runs. The text is easy enough - "she is treating her friend in a preferred manner." Not even Homura is ready to voice the sub-text as we understand it. The situation here is riding on the edge of "admit you have a crush." As this could lead to her first time talking about either emotion in public, do we want to join the friends pushing her to do that? Maybe you have personal memories of middle school to guide you?
That is one way girls can relate. It is forceful. Is this the Sabrina-Homura dynamic?
We also have the choice to "be gentle with a maiden's heart."
If we could do a good deed here, it should be to establish a future scene that leads to Homura reciprocating further trust with Sayaka.
There is only a small distinction we are debating, perhaps "2%" difference. My greed is trying to be useful?
The fact is effectively public. On the other hand, Homura is still not updating herself with that, because she has attitudes and experiences that get in the way. Convincing Homura to explicitly share is a good goal.
Sharing the historical past is an issue well behind the task of "share your emotional state" in this case.
It may be the shortest route to healthier behavior if we stay neutral with anyone else, and save our rational evaluation for private time with Homura alone. A mediator position avoids emotional turmoil better than other persuasion.
If I may reduce Kaizuki's evaluation down to a nugget, this is all about getting a handle on Homura's potential upcoming
wish rejection crisis.
Heading that off is on the radar, and it would appeal to me, very strongly, to optimize for it. Fewer bumps in our deep communication with Homura count towards that?
Firn has given us a fun breakout issue here. I am thankful, challenged and entertained to offer my very best.
I agree, other friends are seeing the same thing using inference. They don't know how deep this runs. The text is easy enough - "she is treating her friend in a preferred manner." Not even Homura is ready to voice the sub-text as we understand it. The situation here is riding on the edge of "admit you have a crush." As this could lead to her first time talking about either emotion in public, do we want to join the friends pushing her to do that? Maybe you have personal memories of middle school to guide you?
That is one way girls can relate. It is forceful. Is this the Sabrina-Homura dynamic?
We also have the choice to "be gentle with a maiden's heart."
If we could do a good deed here, it should be to establish a future scene that leads to Homura reciprocating further trust with Sayaka.
Your criticism is valid; the way that could be dealt with is by offering Sayaka a reason to wait. If you want her to wait. In this case, a conversation with the source is better than gossip. She won't go everywhere else, only to Homura, and Sabrina will be present.
There is only a small distinction we are debating, perhaps "2%" difference. My greed is trying to be useful?
The fact is effectively public. On the other hand, Homura is still not updating herself with that, because she has attitudes and experiences that get in the way. Convincing Homura to explicitly share is a good goal.
Sharing the historical past is an issue well behind the task of "share your emotional state" in this case.
It may be the shortest route to healthier behavior if we stay neutral with anyone else, and save our rational evaluation for private time with Homura alone. A mediator position avoids emotional turmoil better than other persuasion.
If I may reduce Kaizuki's evaluation down to a nugget, this is all about getting a handle on Homura's potential upcoming
wish rejection crisis.
Heading that off is on the radar, and it would appeal to me, very strongly, to optimize for it. Fewer bumps in our deep communication with Homura count towards that?
Firn has given us a fun breakout issue here. I am thankful, challenged and entertained to offer my very best.
Diomedea
A piece of the continent
- Location
- The interblag
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I said from the beginning that I thought it's alright to acknowledge Homura's actions (seeks to protect Madoka) while withholding her reasons for doing so. It lets Sayaka predict Homura in the future, and work with her, and doesn't actually reveal any secrets or betray Homura's trust. Sayaka can tell Homura is being protective of Madoka, it's counter productive to try and pretend something she can plainly see with her own eyes is in itself a secret.
[X] Muramasa
[X] Muramasa
Madou Sutegobana
Autocorrupt has been disabled.
- Location
- Twin Realms Mandala
"Sayaka, you are a good friend..could I trust you to keep a secret? Something I tell you in confidence?"
"Sure, Sabrina, I can keep a secret!"
"So can I~~If you want to know Homura's secret, ask Homura. However don't be too upset if she says no, she might not be ready to tell someone who doesn't come with preexisting knowledge of her secrets yet!"
[X] Kaizuki
"Sure, Sabrina, I can keep a secret!"
"So can I~~If you want to know Homura's secret, ask Homura. However don't be too upset if she says no, she might not be ready to tell someone who doesn't come with preexisting knowledge of her secrets yet!"
[X] Kaizuki
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Okay. Strategic voting time. Muramasa's vote doesn't mention Chiyoda, like Kaizuki's or Godwinson's. (On the other hand, mentioning Chiyoda might be a tangent we don't want to go off on right now. But I digress.)
Muramasa and Godwinson are tied. Godwinson's vote will result in a breach of Homura's trust, no matter how small. Muramasa's won't. Therefore, I am switching my vote to
[X] Muramasa
Muramasa and Godwinson are tied. Godwinson's vote will result in a breach of Homura's trust, no matter how small. Muramasa's won't. Therefore, I am switching my vote to
[X] Muramasa
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
It is done.
- Location
- Florida
[X] Godwinson
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
I don't know what you're on about with this crap. Anything that would breach Homura's trust in my vote is breached in Muramasa's vote.
Sovereign Hunt
A Concentric Circle
- Location
- Bereft of Name
[X] Answer
- [X] Goddess, I wish I could talk about it. But it isn't my story to tell. Homura, well, you know how private she is about herself. Talking to you about any of that, revealing anything, no matter how little... It would be a breach of her trust. I'm sorry. All I can say is she has her reasons for the things she does, how she acts, everything. Looking out for Madoka, well, she has reasons for that too. I hope she'll be able to tell you them herself, eventually. {Vaguely This, I'll Let The Thread Threadpilot. Or Sabrina. Or Firn.}
[X] If there's time left before school ends, go to a library and contact the Japanese meguca IRC. Standard greeting protocols.
-[X] Sayaka's clone can join the important outreach/shitposting if she wants.
Non-committal stuff, vaguer-y wording, the gist. I'm fine with however this conversation turns out, really.
- [X] Goddess, I wish I could talk about it. But it isn't my story to tell. Homura, well, you know how private she is about herself. Talking to you about any of that, revealing anything, no matter how little... It would be a breach of her trust. I'm sorry. All I can say is she has her reasons for the things she does, how she acts, everything. Looking out for Madoka, well, she has reasons for that too. I hope she'll be able to tell you them herself, eventually. {Vaguely This, I'll Let The Thread Threadpilot. Or Sabrina. Or Firn.}
[X] If there's time left before school ends, go to a library and contact the Japanese meguca IRC. Standard greeting protocols.
-[X] Sayaka's clone can join the important outreach/shitposting if she wants.
Non-committal stuff, vaguer-y wording, the gist. I'm fine with however this conversation turns out, really.
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The reasoning is that this line:
Reveals a bit more to Sayaka than Homura might want; specifically, that Homura has experienced a lot of shit over a long period of time, and that she has been damaged by that. Granted, it's always been implicit to anyone who knows a bit about Homura, but she might not want it explicit.
That is what the last few pages of votecrafting has been about, or so I've gathered.