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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Muramasa said:
I don't see why a personal visit would cause issues for the eventual official visit. Presumably there would be no real commitment involved either way. Sabrina can't speak for the Mitakihara group as a whole unless she's talked to Mami and Homura about things too and Kurenai would not be an acting representative of the council in this format. Basically, we're just browsing.
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The issue is that a 'personal' visit might be taken by others as de facto support, or it could be something that would spark tensions -- we have no way of verifying, but it makes her say what (if any) consequences there would be, so that way if we end up needing to distance ourselves over the matter, we can say what she told us.

Essentially, one of the ways to insulate yourself from certain ploys in a highly political environment is to make anyone you talk to have to tell a blatant falsehood if they're trying to manipulate you into actions or appearance in support of their aims. (I really wish I didn't know this stuff from personal experience, but unfortunately I do.)
 
Godwinson said:
The issue is that a 'personal' visit might be taken by others as de facto support, or it could be something that would spark tensions -- we have no way of verifying, but it makes her say what (if any) consequences there would be, so that way if we end up needing to distance ourselves over the matter, we can say what she told us.

Essentially, one of the ways to insulate yourself from certain ploys in a highly political environment is to make anyone you talk to have to tell a blatant falsehood if they're trying to manipulate you into actions or appearance in support of their aims. (I really wish I didn't know this stuff from personal experience, but unfortunately I do.)
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So you're saying that we should get Doka and Hitomi on speaker phone* for this meeting.

*Speaker phone being Sayaclone of course. (yes we could use telepathy (but we wont))
 
argentorum said:
So you're saying that we should get Doka and Hitomi on speaker phone* for this meeting.

*Speaker phone being Sayaclone of course. (yes we could use telepathy (but we wont))
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Funny as that might be, no. We can handle this on our own, it just requires a level of thoughtfulness that we normally don't bring to our interactions, because they're less complex and/or involve people we have metaknowledge of.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Feb 15, 2019 at 11:31 PM, finished with 149530 posts and 9 votes.
  • [X] No matter what else, remember to be patient with their rules -- they exist to protect them from the Incubator's system.
    -[X] Carefully observe the political situation, and make mental notes to be written down and shared with our friends later.
    [X] Ask if a "personal" visit would cause issues with an eventual "official" visit.
    - [X] If it won't, agree to make a personal visit.
    [X] Be open and offer to answer any of Kurenai's questions about cleansing, Clear Seeds, or your goals.
    -[X] Offer cleansing, but don't be pushy if Osaki declines.
    [X] Encourage Sayaka to ask her own questions.
    [X] Find out more about the Council in general. Potential questions:
    -[X] How does the Council operate and make decisions?
    -[X] What are the main blocs in the Council?
    --[X] Do any of the groups in the Council have special powers/privileges?
    -[X] Are all magical girl groups in Tokyo part of the Council?
    --[x] How are independents handled?
    --[x] What's the protocol for new contractees?
    -[x] How are witch hunting rights currently handled?
    -[x] How was the Council founded?
    [x] Find out more about the current gridlock in the Council. Potential questions:
    -[X] What are the main issues regarding our situation that have been raised in the Council?
    --[X] Which blocs are raising the strongest opposition?
    --[X] What are Kurenai's own primary concerns regarding us and our offer? What can we do to address them?
    [X] General potential questions:
    -[X] Is her group the only magical girl presence at Rissho University?
    --[X] What are her thoughts on the psychology department?
    -[X] You heard there was a magical girl with a boyfriend here...?
    [X] No matter what else, remember to be patient with their rules -- they exist to protect them from the Incubator's system.
    [x] How do you answer?
    - [x] Yes, it's just a personal visit to scope things out
    [x] Also, I really want to meet this magical girl who has a boyfriend
    [X] Would a "personal" visit at all affect an "official" visit later?
    -[X] Express goal to find a scholar at Rissho today.
    --[X] Mention fascination with the biography mentioned by Chouko
    --[X] As a new Magical Girl, Sabrina wants to learn a bit from a sempai.
    -[X] If it won't, agree to make a personal visit.
    -[X] ( Conditional )Ask her opinion if there are rules occluding this
    [X] Encourage Sayaka to ask questions herself too.
    [X] Prime ourself to be patient with their rules -- they probably extend survival within the Incubator's system.
    -[X] Carefully observe the political and magical situation, and make mental notes to be written down and shared with our friends later.
    [X] Listen much more than we speak. Follow her leads when safe. As appropriate, use questions to keep her talking. Have a positive, engaged tone.
    -[X] Question pool
    --[X] Ask as if you were telling a new girl who had an interest in Tokyo.
    --[X] How do the girls divide their cleansing here? What is population size and border of the magical polity?
    --[X] Council origin and history? Leadership? Philosophy?
    --[X] Membership or citizenship, by what means? Are there other legal processes? Rights? Obligations?
    --[X] Describe the policy making and implementation process?
    --[X] (Conditional. Don't antagonize) What does the Council not have claim over? Are there Abstainers and non-aligned?
    --[X] (Conditional. Don't antagonize) Relations to normal and potential people, are any on the Council? Where does Kyuubey fit?
    [X] Carefully observe the political situation, and make mental notes to be written down and shared with our friends later.
    [X] Ask if a "personal" visit would cause issues with an eventual "official" visit.
    - [X] If it won't, agree to make a personal visit.
    [X] Be open and offer to answer any of Kurenai's questions about cleansing, Clear Seeds, or your goals.
    -[X] Offer cleansing, but don't be pushy if Osaka declines.
    [X] Encourage Sayaka to ask her own questions.
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first thoughts

  • We can't make this an official visit anyway, as Mami is head of the Mitakihara group.
  • We need to make sure a personal visit won't cause issues with a later offical visit
  • That professional visit might benefit from Hitomi being in the loop via Sayaka clone (to be discreet) or speakerphone (more transparent).
I think this could be like a senator or something visiting another state, its signaling something but nothing that is binding.
 
Godwinson said:
Funny as that might be, no. We can handle this on our own, it just requires a level of thoughtfulness that we normally don't bring to our interactions, because they're less complex and/or involve people we have metaknowledge of.
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Whether we are capable of handling it is one thing.

But this is also an excellent opportunity to make Madoka (and Hitomi, though it's less of an issue there) feel useful as non-contractees, and it seems unlikely to make things worse even if the amount of help it could provide is only marginal.
 
DB_Explorer said:
first thoughts

  • We can't make this an official visit anyway, as Mami is head of the Mitakihara group.
  • We need to make sure a personal visit won't cause issues with a later offical visit
  • That professional visit might benefit from Hitomi being in the loop via Sayaka clone (to be discreet) or speakerphone (more transparent).
I think this could be like a senator or something visiting another state, its signaling something but nothing that is binding.
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If Mami is the head of the Mitakihara group, wouldn't this be a First Lady visit?
 
Oh boy, Magical Girl Geopolitics!

Firnagzen said:
You blink as your brain jumps a few connections, from how unexpectedly sharp Madoka can be, to a certain Wish, to Homura. "Also, mostly unrelated, I need to remember to praise Homura sometime. Hrm."

"Eh?" Sayaka says. "What, for putting up with you? I guess I can see that..."

"Jerk," you say, giving Sayaka a half-hearted glare. "No, no, just in general. Unrelated thought, anyway."
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Yeah, Madoka's a clever girl. She would be insanely useful as a diplomat/negotiator. And of course, Homura does deserve praise.

Firnagzen said:
You're being conservative, of course. Don't want to overwhelm her too much.
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Definitely conservative. Weren't our moderate estimates for a Clear Seeds's lifetime measured in millennia?

Anyway, we should be careful here. Even if we don't start a war, we don't want sour relations with any of Tokyo blocs. Getting more info from our existing allies is a good idea. And if we want to bring in Madoka and Hitomi as negotiators for the official meeting, we might want to check if it's some sort faux pas to involve muggles with "meguca business".
 
Redshirt Army's presented vote works for me.

[X] No matter what else, remember to be patient with their rules -- they exist to protect them from the Incubator's system.
-[X] Carefully observe the political situation, and make mental notes to be written down and shared with our friends later.

[X] Ask if a "personal" visit would cause issues with an eventual "official" visit.
- [X] If it won't, agree to make a personal visit.

[X] Be open and offer to answer any of Kurenai's questions about cleansing, Clear Seeds, or your goals.
-[X] Offer cleansing, but don't be pushy if Osaka declines.

[X] Ask about information for future use during "official" visits to the Council.
-[X] What are the main blocs in the Council?
-[X] What are the main issues regarding our situation that have been raised in the Council?
--[X] What are Kurenai's own primary concerns regarding us and our offer? What can we do to address them?
-[X] Are all magical girl groups in Tokyo part of the Council?
--[X] What's the established protocol regarding new contractees?
-[X] Encourage Sayaka to ask questions herself too.
 
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Godwinson said:
Redshirt Army's presented vote works for me.
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Neat.

[x] Godwinson

There were a few potential edits I had in mind, though:

• Explicitly asking for details on how the Council operates - is it a majority vote by representatives? Do any groups have special (veto?) powers/privileges?
• Shifting the questions about non-Council groups and new contractees up higher, before the questions specifically about Sabrina.
• Maybe asking about what the hunting situation is like in as dense a region as Tokyo?

I'm getting a sneaking suspicion that the situation's gonna be complicated enough that I should probably make a dedicated "Tokyo Politics" page in the Day Planner. (And I might as well update the calendar to include the past few days while I'm at it.)
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Neat.

[x] Godwinson

There were a few potential edits I had in mind, though:

• Explicitly asking for details on how the Council operates - is it a majority vote by representatives? Do any groups have special (veto?) powers/privileges?
• Shifting the questions about non-Council groups and new contractees up higher, before the questions specifically about Sabrina.
• Maybe asking about what the hunting situation is like in as dense a region as Tokyo?

I'm getting a sneaking suspicion that the situation's gonna be complicated enough that I should probably make a dedicated "Tokyo Politics" page in the Day Planner. (And I might as well update the calendar to include the past few days while I'm at it.)
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Hmm, y'know, I like those potential edits, so instead of me voting for it and you proxying me--


[X] Redshirt Army

There.
 
Given what we are reading, let me suggest a more neutral exchange?
Since we are at-range, and some topics would make fine talk for our actual face-to-face meeting, I will propose a re-shuffling of some priorities.
Removed our central mission regarding Grief and humanitarianism.
Some re-wording
Main goal is let Kurenai take the mic.
Sub goal is to do therapist preparedness recon.

There is also the factor of presenting a cool, easy to socialize vibe. Sabrina can do this, by just a bit of restraint. And inserting a little room for comfort.
We need a buffer topic, something that Isn't Politics, and also Isn't Grief. We absolutely need to include other options.

Since we have already been presented with the possibility of a "non official" visit, what makes it official diplomacy or personal?

We can declare some reason for coming to her door that isn't politics, right?

Two threads matching this are defined.
Shipping talk, and
Rissho University Psychology Department recon.

It would be far less stressful for her if we would display an open interest in one or both right now.
This display demonstrates our willingness to not n00b her to death. Hosting "the girl getting all the attention in Council" is rather risky, if said witch girl is going to upset the balance through blunt force honesty. If there is a political divide, and that is an if at this stage?, then one side or both has to avoid the truth.

Our correct position this moment is to listen, ask about the things each Tokyo girl wants to expound about, listen some more, and see with our own eyes. We don't have to accept their positions yet, and maybe we should avoid expressing any opinions about them.


We already know what happens when Magical Girls don't listen to one another. }}shudder{{


Our reputation precedes us, and we already said a fair large amount, if you compare us to a low-level diplomat. Our part is done, unless things change.
Trust in her basic intelligence, and give her a chance to say something without guidance. Expect Kurenai to act in her own best interest?

[X] Would a "personal" visit at all affect an "official" visit later?
-[X] Express goal to find a scholar at Rissho today.
--[X] Mention fascination with the biography mentioned by Chouko
--[X] As a new Magical Girl, Sabrina wants to learn a bit from a sempai.
-[X] If it won't, agree to make a personal visit.
-[X] ( Conditional )Ask her opinion if there are rules occluding this
[X] Encourage Sayaka to ask questions herself too.
[X] Prime ourself to be patient with their rules -- they probably extend survival within the Incubator's system.
-[X] Carefully observe the political and magical situation, and make mental notes to be written down and shared with our friends later.
[X] Listen much more than we speak. Follow her leads when safe. As appropriate, use questions to keep her talking. Have a positive, engaged tone.
-[X] Question pool
--[X] Ask as if you were telling a new girl who had an interest in Tokyo.
--[X] How do the girls divide their cleansing here? What is population size and border of the magical polity?
--[X] Council origin and history? Leadership? Philosophy?
--[X] Membership or citizenship, by what means? Are there other legal processes? Rights? Obligations?
--[X] Describe the policy making and implementation process?
--[X] (Conditional. Don't antagonize) What does the Council not have claim over? Are there Abstainers and non-aligned?
--[X] (Conditional. Don't antagonize) Relations to normal and potential people, are any on the Council? Where does Kyuubey fit?

Talk of Grief, and cleansing, and many things will come about shortly, even if we don't prompt. It's cool to let them come to you.
When we get in a closer talk, see if she will check US for the infohazards. Ought to happen if she thinks we are pro-level, and she knows the bombs herself.
 
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My biggest concern with how we are dealing with clear seeds right now is the possibility that if we do find something wrong and possibly dangerous with them we will have to do an effective recall of every single clear seed we have given out until that point. and know that has about a snowballs chance in hell of that going through without severe resistance in every form. given that we are handing out a resource that is beginning to introduce a post scarcity situation to the magical world and is giving magical girls a way to survive without fighting. nobody is going to give that up easily, if at all
and ugh, politics, I agree that the systems in place are most likely to keep everything stable from the incubators schemes, but homura did mention that the council is made up of people who like to argue for the sake of arguing, which is not going to be a pleasant thing in any universe to deal with
 
soulsguardian said:
homura did mention that the council is made up of people who like to argue for the sake of arguing
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So... just like us, then? :V

[X] No matter what else, remember to be patient with their rules -- they exist to protect them from the Incubator's system.
-[X] Carefully observe the political situation, and make mental notes to be written down and shared with our friends later.

[X] Ask if a "personal" visit would cause issues with an eventual "official" visit.
- [X] If it won't, agree to make a personal visit.

[X] Be open and offer to answer any of Kurenai's questions about cleansing, Clear Seeds, or your goals.
-[X] Offer cleansing, but don't be pushy if Osaki declines.

[X] Encourage Sayaka to ask her own questions.

[X] Find out more about the Council in general. Potential questions:
-[X] How does the Council operate and make decisions?
-[X] What are the main blocs in the Council?
--[X] Do any of the groups in the Council have special powers/privileges?
-[x] Are all magical girl groups in Tokyo part of the Council?
--[x] How are independents handled?
--[x] What's the protocol for new contractees?
-[x] How are witch hunting rights currently handled?
-[x] How was the Council founded?

[x] Find out more about the current gridlock in the Council. Potential questions:
-[X] What are the main issues regarding our situation that have been raised in the Council?
--[X] Which blocs are raising the strongest opposition?
--[X] What are Kurenai's own primary concerns regarding us and our offer? What can we do to address them?

[X] General potential questions:
-[X] Is her group the only magical girl presence at Rissho University?
--[X] What are her thoughts on the psychology department?
-[X] You heard there was a magical girl with a boyfriend here...?
 
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Redshirt Army said:
So... just like us, then? :V
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you know what? fair enough. I walked right into that one

[X] Carefully observe the political situation, and make mental notes to be written down and shared with our friends later.

[X] Ask if a "personal" visit would cause issues with an eventual "official" visit.
- [X] If it won't, agree to make a personal visit.

[X] Be open and offer to answer any of Kurenai's questions about cleansing, Clear Seeds, or your goals.
-[X] Offer cleansing, but don't be pushy if Osaka declines.

[X] Encourage Sayaka to ask her own questions.

the idea of getting meduka more involved without having her having to contract, so she doesnt feel useless, is tempting, but at the same time I think it would have serious implications either in the immediate future or down the line.
also mom wouldn't like it
 
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