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Dragon Ball: After the End

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I'm continuing to be confused by people thinking we'd be able to learn anything from Hit even if we could freely move about the Galaxy?

Also, still not sure why there's concern about Kakara forming a true 2nd person/personality if Sealed and Shaded; the conditions are absolutely not the same as Jaffur/Jaron.
 
[X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
 
@PoptartProdigy, since we are no longer under the By Year system I'm a little fuzzy on exact time frame, but would it be safe to assume that no matter how this coming series of events shakes out that we'll probably be seeing some minor timeskip that'll take us into the next year pretty soon?

Or to put it more succinctly: are we finally dealing with the end of year six right now?

ilbgar123 said:
The Temporal Sphere
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So, an AU version of Kakara is basically Fu from the infinite history saga dlc from Xenoverse 2?
 
[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.

Yeah, I'm not sold on "risk catastrophic plan failure for little to no gain beyond the satisfaction of causing Dandeer to suffer."
 
ElleonXan said:
So, an AU version of Kakara is basically Fu from the infinite history saga dlc from Xenoverse 2?
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Not quite. See, Artist is a result of Reality's desire To Be outstripping Tokitoki's egg production, though she herself is unaware of this. Even without the whole 'literally incapable of feeling without substance only obtainable from creating a timeline' problem of her existence, she's driven to create without any rhyme or reason. She's not really a good person, she just recognizes that being good is less trouble than being bad, and that it feels good to be good more often than it does to be bad. She's Chaotic Neutral on the DnD alignment scale. Being constrained from creating timelines is her worst nightmare. Not losing people.

She doesn't care all that much about the timelines she creates, just that she create them. There's already plenty of blood and tears in the normal story, so there's no need to add more to make it interesting. A story where everything is horrible forever is boring, and she avoids making 'boring' timelines. She's never going to make an Immortal Frieza timeline, because then he'd be essentially invincible, since about 99% of the universe couldn't stand up to him in his weakest form. What's more boring than an invincible hero? An invincible villain. An immortal 'Future Trunks' Gohan? Now, that could be interesting.

@PoptartProdigy Looking over the Trunks Style. Would the QI blade used by one of Cooler's minions work for that? I mean, it just says sword.
 
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So I've noticed a few people toying with the idea that getting Sealed would create a Karen. That's not really how it works; Jaron's creation was more because of Jaffur resisting Dandeer's spell than anything Dandeer was doing. The Seal...well, it seals things. Kakara doesn't have a Karen just seething under the surface and waiting to come out as soon as Kakara is no longer suppressing her (probably). What happened to make Jaron was a very specific confluence of Dandeer casting the Seal; Jaffur having the capacity to respond with magic; Jaffur not knowing enough about magic to be locked into the usual paradigm of, "just Sealing, only Sealing;" Jaffur not knowing enough to be effective in his resistance; and Jaffur having enough power to make something happen anyway, but not having enough to shatter the Seal entirely. It was a very specific freak accident.

Basically, the only way getting Sealed would create a whole different Karen would be if Dandeer saw what happened with Jaron, said, "Ooh, that looks like a fantastic idea!" and proceeded to do it deliberately.
ElleonXan said:
@PoptartProdigy, since we are no longer under the By Year system I'm a little fuzzy on exact time frame, but would it be safe to assume that no matter how this coming series of events shakes out that we'll probably be seeing some minor timeskip that'll take us into the next year pretty soon?

Or to put it more succinctly: are we finally dealing with the end of year six right now?
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Temporally speaking, you've hardly started Year 6. There may, or may not, be a time skip. That will depend on how this situation resolves.
ilbgar123 said:
Not quite. See, Artist is a result of Reality's desire To Be outstripping Tokitoki's egg production, though she herself is unaware of this. Even without the whole 'literally incapable of feeling without substance only obtainable from creating a timeline' problem of her existence, she's driven to create without any rhyme or reason. She's not really a good person, she just recognizes that being good is less trouble than being bad, and that it feels good to be good more often than it does to be bad. She's Chaotic Neutral on the DnD alignment scale. Being constrained from creating timelines is her worst nightmare. Not losing people.

She doesn't care all that much about the timelines she creates, just that she create them. There's already plenty of blood and tears in the normal story, so there's no need to add more to make it interesting. A story where everything is horrible forever is boring, and she avoids making 'boring' timelines. She's never going to make an Immortal Frieza timeline, because then he'd be essentially invincible, since about 99% of the universe couldn't stand up to him in his weakest form. What's more boring than an invincible hero? An invincible villain. An immortal 'Future Trunks' Gohan? Now, that could be interesting.

@PoptartProdigy Looking over the Trunks Style. Would the QI blade used by one of Cooler's minions work for that? I mean, it just says sword.
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It's a bit kludgy -- you lose a fair amount of fine control when the blade design is in line with your arm like that -- but it can work, yeah.
 
I mean, if Dandeer has any idea of Kakara's character, she'd know that Kakara wouldn't kill someone just to get to Dandeer, so she might craft Karen and then implant a ton of mind fuckery, because it would further impede Kakara. Even if she broke the mind control on herself, she'd still have to contest Karen for control. Also, Karen's Communication would likely be within a rank of Kakara's, so diplomancing Karen would be difficult if she were mind controlled to think of us as an enemy.

So an argument could be made for it being a fantastic idea if she goes about it right.
 
PoptartProdigy said:
Basically, the only way getting Sealed would create a whole different Karen would be if Dandeer saw what happened with Jaron, said, "Ooh, that looks like a fantastic idea!" and proceeded to do it deliberately.
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So basically guaranteed then?

on a more serious note, that does mean our absence on earth Garenhuld will be noticed. Pity that, was hoping to get the drop on Dandeer after all this.
 
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ilbgar123 said:
(...) she's driven to create without any rhyme or reason. She's not really a good person, she just recognizes that being good is less trouble than being bad, and that it feels good to be good more often than it does to be bad. She's Chaotic Neutral on the DnD alignment scale. Being constrained from creating timelines is her worst nightmare. Not losing people.

She doesn't care all that much about the timelines she creates, just that she create them. There's already plenty of blood and tears in the normal story, so there's no need to add more to make it interesting. A story where everything is horrible forever is boring, and she avoids making 'boring' timelines.
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Honestly, this part right here reminds me a lot of Fu. I'm not saying that your idea isn't good or that you haven't put a unique spin on things. I'm just saying that when you break it down, both "Artist" and Fu can be cliff-notes'd as "the mysterious youth that goes around messing with time with no malicious intent in order to gain some form of energy/substance from the change, whom the supreme kai of time has some pointed questions for." Admittedly, there are plenty of differences, and the fundamental mechanics and motivations are different, but I think you could probably see where I can draw the parallels.

PoptartProdigy said:
Temporally speaking, you've hardly started Year 6.
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Seriously? Wow, my sense of time for this year is WAY off the mark.
 
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chryssalideater said:
"Oh no Dandeer, please don't create a new consciousness we can subvert against you and have a healthy familial relationship with!"
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I mean if she made an entirely new identity based on Karen and then effectively mind controlled or raised it without the whole Jaron/Jaffur thing since we wouldn't be there it wouldn't really have much reason to see us as a sister, disobey Dandeer, or want to give up what it thinks is it's own body (unless we're required to be there to make it in which case I don't think we could actually interact with it since we're not a sorcerer).
 
[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.

Between the first part potentially making Dandeer and the mindslaves (note to self: make a band, use that as a name) tgat we know how to escape and potentially making Dandeer more paranoid and careful, I will tentatively not vote for rebuttal.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I think a lot of people are voting for Rebuttal Monologue because their desire to shoot back is very strong right now. I know that's on my mind.
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hard to blame them/us. My second/third choice would be the vicious "Jaron suicide shot" one
Adhoc vote count started by Pittauro on Sep 22, 2018 at 8:52 AM, finished with 199 posts and 53 votes.
  • [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
    [X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
    -[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    [X] Rebuttal Monologue with vicious additions
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    --[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
    [X] Damage mitigation speech.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
    -[X] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
    -[X] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
    -[X] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
    -[X] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
    -[X] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
    -[X] Make sure to Willpower Push.
    -[X] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
    -[X] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
    -[X] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
    [x] Rebuttal Monologue
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    [X] Make it about Jaffur
    [X] Nope!
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    -[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
    --[X] If it fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Spirited Attack
    -[X] Attempt to IT out of the hall. Gain distance and charge a spirit bomb
    --[X] If the IT fails, proceed to next highest voted plan
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    -[X] Mention that you just got out of a vision; feigning (Panic or Complete seriousness, depending on which kakara thinks she's better able to fake in her current emotional state).
    --[X] You met Gohan, like you had before with the spirit bomb
    --[X] He told you about how you needed to be ready to face a threat to Garenhuld
    ---[X] Tell her that the threat is a powerful sorcerer, and that you... need her help
    ---[X] Play up danger to her family, especially Jaffur / Jaron
    [X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.​
    [X] Nope! With Ally.
    [X] Spirited Attack
    [X] Appeal to Authority
    [X] Whatever wins, try Willpower-pushing the primary action, and also whenever our glorious QM deems wise.
    [X] Kill Dandeer
    [X] Talk it out
    [X] Attempt to contact Ancestors.​
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Simon_Jester said:
I think a lot of people are voting for Rebuttal Monologue because their desire to shoot back is very strong right now. I know that's on my mind.
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While I understand that, is there any chance you'd be willing to set aside that desire in the interests of not risking catastrophic plan failure? As far as I can tell, the main benefit to us from Rebuttal Monologue is catharsis; that doesn't seem like enough to justify going off-script, especially not in a way that immediately warns Dandeer that we know how the bindings work (thereby introducing significant risk that she foresees our escape attempt, which in turn means a high probability of sufficient divergence to take us off the rails of our vision).
 
Wiadi said:
While I understand that, is there any chance you'd be willing to set aside that desire in the interests of not risking catastrophic plan failure? As far as I can tell, the main benefit to us from Rebuttal Monologue is catharsis; that doesn't seem like enough to justify going off-script, especially not in a way that immediately warns Dandeer that we know how the bindings work (thereby introducing significant risk that she foresees our escape attempt, which in turn means a high probability of sufficient divergence to take us off the rails of our vision).
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Relationship: Enemy (Hated)
 
Aranfan said:
Relationship: Enemy (Hated)
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Personally I'd rather act on that enmity by coming back once we're ready and tearing Dandeer's perfect world out from under her, rather than getting in a cutting remark or three and then being at her mercy. Hating someone doesn't mean you have to be careless about it.
 
On further reflection, I do not know how I feel about the matter. I'm going to delete my vote.

EDIT: Actually, I do still favor one option I voted for then, as it does not share the listed weakness even if it doesn't result in us getting a long rant off.

[X] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[X] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[X] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
 
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[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.

Still afraid that destabilizing Dandeer further isn't a good idea, and I don't think getting Yammar free is worth whatever she might do if we actually manage to break her.

Edit:

Guess I might as well vote for my own plan as well, even if it has no chance of winning.

[X] Make it about Jaffur
 
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Wiadi said:
While I understand that, is there any chance you'd be willing to set aside that desire in the interests of not risking catastrophic plan failure? As far as I can tell, the main benefit to us from Rebuttal Monologue is catharsis; that doesn't seem like enough to justify going off-script, especially not in a way that immediately warns Dandeer that we know how the bindings work (thereby introducing significant risk that she foresees our escape attempt, which in turn means a high probability of sufficient divergence to take us off the rails of our vision).
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I wouldn't be worried about that happening.

According to how Poptart described the plan, our speech is going to give Dandeer heavy penalties to noticing that we're informing Yammar about how the spell works, so the main benefit of the plan seems to be stalling for time until the Senzus awaken, as well as making sure Yammar escapes the shackles at the same time as we do.
 
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