Regardless, the shades are now Sabrina's responsibility. Sabtina and he voters decided to take Rionna down, so now they have to take responsibility for any consequences like the shades fading.

Or do people make it a habit to abandon 9 yr olds and teenage gitls to their doom nowadays?

Wssn't their a big argument about blabla bla slavery, blabla bla Rionna is a monster, blalbla bla she should not get away with her actions, and now theres talk about abandoning the shades to die.

Do you guys know what this means? Its the equicalent of capturing human traffickers, but not making the effort to find the victims before they die of starvation and dehydration or leaving them in a sinking ship that the so called 'hero' just sunk.

Or was all that self-righteous discussion about slavery, Rionna is evil just empty words of convenience in the end to voters and Sabrina to be in the moral highground? Talking about abandoning them just because its inconvenient or requires too much effort.

In the words of tv tropes,

What the hell SV?
Again, given what Riona's magic was, I'm fairly sure we won't be able to revive them, because that's not what her magic was intended to do. I don't think it has that function. We're not abandoning them- I'm fairly sure they're far too far gone to revive, rather than allowing them to move on to their final rest. Also, again, we told Sayaka it'd be her choice to learn the witchbomb. Pressuring her into learning it is a shitty thing to do as a friend.
 
More to this.
As I was saying before, "leaving no witnesses" policy would require murdering cities worth of Magical Girls.
There's not a snowball's chance in hell Nadia wouldn't have heard about mysterious disappearances of power structures of an entire fucking city.
What about Tokyo or a similarly large city? Excuse me, but my SoD is dissolving faster than a plate of pastries in front of Kyouko.

So instead, what was happening is probably this: Rionna finds Griefguca and assasinates her however she deems appropriate, then leaves town.
Unless someone's checking statistics on those things, no one would suspect a serial killer going after Griefbenders when the ones in the know have another readily available explanation: Witching Out.
Witches with Grief Control powers sound like reaaaaaaally unfair Boss Fights...

Silver linings, I guess. She isn't a mass murder. Just pretty much a serial killer.:V

Although, that does get me morbidly interested in what sort of horrible atrocities Nadia has seen.
Well, when we asked about the worst gucas out there, she totally didn't tell us about meguca raiding groups, who raid cities, stay a while feeding off the locals, then move on...

Even if you took the kindest interpretation of that, it should mean lots and lots of deaths and witch outs. For years...?

Actually being serious for a moment, that could possibly change in the future. In the far, far future. Redemption can't exactly be forced.
Far, far, far, far, far, far, far future. :V


No lying, my hopes for Riona are kind of diminute. I feel she might just... identify with the role she's had as a meguca. That's really not an easy thing to help anyone with.

But who knows, maybe getting taken down a peg will teach her some humility. It's never wrong to hope foolishly.
 
More to this.
As I was saying before, "leaving no witnesses" policy would require murdering cities worth of Magical Girls.
No, leaving no witnesses would really only require taking out that person's small group. Other groups would just figure someone in their midst witched, and everyone else died shortly after, or they died in some other way.

Magical girls just aren't that connected, and people die with no concrete explanation all the time. Some group goes under? it's not mysterious to most meguca, it's tragic, but pretty much just how things go out here.
 
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Redemption requires contrition, guilt, and all that good stuff as a starting point. So technically, she isn't really redeemable.:cool: *is being pedantic*

Actually being serious for a moment, that could possibly change in the future. In the far, far future. Redemption can't exactly be forced.
True, and that's what I was going for. Maintaining strict morality is super expensive, and is a worthy challenge. Breaking the System is not the only fixing to be done. Fortunately, Magical Girls won't be isolated anymore. We will need so much help, and the scaling of love to reach everywhere is the only way to develop enough power for all the non-magical changes the world needs.
We're gonna need more cake.
 
The clock is ticking slowly for our decision to try and copy Rionna's power. The Shades are still bound to Rionna, because we have not killed her. I think Sayaka could actually sleep on it.
Can we wait?
We can probably wait to read Sayaka in on the Witchbomb but we really shouldn't wait to find out more about the Shades.

It's entirely possible that there's literally nothing we can do about the shades, that it's futile to try and that they'll just pass on to the afterlife and that will be that.

It's also possible we can alleviate their suffering, pass on final requests and last wishes, stop them going on homicidal rages that result in hundreds of civilian deaths, stop them enacting Riona's final (probably evil) orders and a million other possibilities. Shades are mysterious and we have no idea what they really are, what they might do, if we can help them, or even what they look like.

I think we need to find out more about the shades simply because having that big an unknown floating about is extremely dangerous. We don't necessarily need Sayaka to help us with this, we can try to make a spectroscope and look into them ourselves. We can also recruit help from Niko if Homura is willing to let her into the timestop. What we really shouldn't do though is end the timestop without having an idea about what's going on with the shades.
 
"I'm not letting her go," you say, taking a breath. Mami's hand finds yours, squeezing tight. "I don't... I know that much. If she goes free, when I could have done something here... That makes me responsible. I'm not going to let that stand. I can't let that stand."

"She's dangerous," Homura says. Her frown deepens into a scowl. "She tried to attack you."

"She attacked you," Mami says simply. "In our city."

"Yeah!" Sayaka says. "I mean... is it even a question? Like... whatshername. Anri, or Yuuri, or whatever her name is. Take her down, and then we talk to her."

:lol
Sabrina barely cared about the attempted mind-control, while everyone else thinks that's reason enough alone to beat Rionna up.
 
I apologize if I sounded that way. In my defense I never said anything abould children murdering, I said abandoning.


I wasn't accusing everyone, just the people who suggested to leave them to their fates, because they offer no value gain to Sayaka and Sabrina and because trying to save them will require witchbombing her and stressing her out, how a vacation or break is needed, but since it rakes time ergo, the shades will dissapear therefore its meaningless to help the shades, obviously the posters didn't use the exact words but they did imply them.

Trying to find specific names of those who said these things take effort , that and I can't remember how to and requires me to actually use specific names.
 
Well, it didn't work, did it?

How would that even work, anyway?

To mindcontrol Sabrina Rionna would have to mindcontrol the thread, wouldn't she?
Oh no! It's out fault! :o

We forgot to make an account for Riona. That's why she couldn't join in. If only we had, she would have got a voice, just like everyone else.


"Now," Rionna says. Power, magic infuses her voice, infusing it with odd harmonics that sing and push against you, against your Soul. "Let me go."

And the magic-
"I'm gonna need your name, surname, new username, e-mail, and new password."

"Come again?"

"..."

*Magic*

"... Oh my fucking god."


"Goddess. Well? Did you want to make an account, or not?"

"You're fucking weird and this is the greatest trap I've seen or the stupidest thing I've seen anyone do, fine."

*Gives Sabrina the requested data*


*Grins victorious*

"... What?"

"I finally know how your name is spelled."

"... Ye could have fucking as- OH MY GOD THE SPAM THE PRIVATE MESSAGES THE ALERTS OVERFLOWING IT'S TOO MUCH AGH-"

*Collapses*


"... That too."
 
I apologize if I sounded that way. In my defense I never said anything abould children murdering, I said abandoning.


I wasn't accusing everyone, just the people who suggested to leave them to their fates, because they offer no value gain to Sayaka and Sabrina and because trying to save them will require witchbombing her and stressing her out, how a vacation or break is needed, but since it rakes time ergo, the shades will dissapear therefore its meaningless to help the shades, obviously the posters didn't use the exact words but they did imply them.

Trying to find specific names of those who said these things take effort , that and I can't remember how to and requires me to actually use specific names.

Saotome, as the one who made the same mistake:
Don't call out the thread as a whole. Make effort to actually discern who holds opinions you disagree with and engage with them. Constructively, if you please. :p
I'm not offended, but someone might be.
 
Thank you for quoting this,
No problem.

Nadia isn't omniscient and Rionna only brags about her misdeeds to people she then kills.
I'd now like to point out to everyone who has had anything to say about Nadia in this matter that the wrong sections of that text have been being emphasized.
I agree, thank you for pointing this out. I jumped from 'Nadia gave us wrong information' to the assumption that 'Nadia had the correct information', which is wrong in hindsight.

Tl;Dr the biggest thing that text supports is that Nadia doesn't know jack shit about Rionna and will be rather horrified when we tell her what we learned today IC.

In light of this, does anyone think we should add 'Verify Nadia's information' to the day-planner?

...How did we miss that?
Not to be callous, but I think we focused on the soul stealing aspect (cause it was horrifying) that we didn't pay as close attention to the murder that went along with it.

...How did we miss that? Nadia hasn't heard of Rionna traveling or ever interacting with grief controllers, which means that Rionna is killing literally every possible witness. And grief controllers aren't quiet; in fact, by definition they're not-quiet enough for Rionna to hear of them. And then... she kills them and everyone nearby so thoroughly that nobody has ever heard of a boogeyman that kills grief controllers. What the fuck.
And what about the grief controller's group? What about everyone knowing that there's a boogeyman that makes grief controllers go away? What about the magical girls that would've found the corpses of the grief controller and her entire group? And yet Nadia has heard nothing about this. And I think we asked her about grief controllers, too, right? And she didn't say anything about them having a tendency to die suddenly with not a scratch on them along with everyone that was on their team.

Nadia is silent for a moment. "It is... how do you say it, courteous protocol to warn magical girls when you travel," she responds at last. "I have not heard of Riona travelling much. It does not mean she does not, but she is strong, fimti? She might not know. Do you know how she is arriving?"

All this talk of Rionna eliminating evidence makes me even more curious/interested of where and how Nadia learned about Riona. Nadia obviously didn't meet Riona while traveling away from Edinburgh, so did Nadia visit her there? How did Riona treat her, as a non-grief controller MG? Did Nadia meet Rionna? Did Rionna share her cider? (no seriously does anyone remember the arc name where we met Rionna? I can't remember and I want to comb over what she said. And also if she explicitly said that she tried Rionna'a cider or just warned us against trying it. )? If Nadia didn't visit Rionna and didn't meet her traveling, then who learned that Rionna could affect souls and how did they survive to spread that information?

I bring this up because,
1. Even if Nadia was misled or uninformed, as long as she visited Edinburgh, Nadia may have some useful-but-likely-not-critical knowledge about anything happening in Edinburgh which was too conspicuous to hide (like the presence or absence of some giant city-wide magic byproduct of Project Edinburgh)
2.
... there's magic in that flask. Faint enough that you didn't pick up on it with a cursory look in there, and she is definitely drinking it.

Riona catches you looking. She sloshes the flask in your general direction, raising her eyebrows.

"No, but thank you," you say. Nadia warned you about the stuff. You... don't think it's harmful. You're pretty sure she would have mentioned if it were, but you're awfully suspicious of the magic in there.

She shrugs, and takes another sip.

It smells awful. Not alcoholic, or if there is, there's so little it's drowned out by something sharply acidic, almost like curdled milk. Mami wrinkles her nose, leaning against your side.

There's bound to be some trace of it left, and looking at it should be a free action, so...

*clasps hands*

Please? *begging catgirl face* I won't really mind if that gets voted out of things but eh, just a pet action.

Combined with Nadia'a warning, I really want to know what Rionna put in that flask.

No, you know what.
"I NEED THE TRUTH" Vote:
[X] Continue all antimagic and gem disabling actions.
[X] Ask your friends to wait for a few minutes for you to try something, 'just to be safe'
- [X] Make the Soul tri-corder and scan everything in the room. Scan:
-- [X] The flask
-- [X] Her gem
-- [X] Her body
-- [X] Her suitcase
-- [X] Her pockets
-- [X] Every member of the team (just in case she stuck a shade on Sabrina or Mami at the airport)
-- [X] Do a quick sweep of the room
[X] Godwinson
- [X] Discuss what you can while scanning, if it will take longer than a minute
 
[X] Try to get a Shade viewing enchantment running, or ask Sayaka to split and try her visual powers in passive mode.
[X] Get a container to form the anti-magic box enchantment
[X] Investigate Rionna's personal items, including cider. Read any documents. Store all for later.
[X] Go to the Kures for box enchantment.
[X] Brainstorm to determine security placed on Rionn'as Soul Gem.
-[X] Measure the rate of Grief accumulation in the Gem.
[X] Plans for travel to Yuki, and vent session after.
[X] Plan suborbital flight to Edinburgh

Seeing the souls may not require Rionna's power? We can see a bit into the soul spectrum, and given the nature of Magic, others should be able to have some sensory overlap too.
Sayaka has a Shariganagan, thus might be able to get enough information to resolve position and motion of a Shade? Or maybe she can resolve them better than our powers?

The mystery isn't in what the Shades are, we were told that. Our gap is not understanding what interaction is possible without specialized wish-powers, and to what extent the binding allows them to resemble themselves. Further, we have to worry not only about the programming they may operate under, but that some percentage were as bad as Rionna during life. The mystery cannot be approached without care, that meaning a few clever uses of magic.

We can probably wait to read Sayaka in on the Witchbomb but we really shouldn't wait to find out more about the Shades.

It's entirely possible that there's literally nothing we can do about the shades, that it's futile to try and that they'll just pass on to the afterlife and that will be that.

It's also possible we can alleviate their suffering, pass on final requests and last wishes, stop them going on homicidal rages that result in hundreds of civilian deaths, stop them enacting Riona's final (probably evil) orders and a million other possibilities. Shades are mysterious and we have no idea what they really are, what they might do, if we can help them, or even what they look like.

I think we need to find out more about the shades simply because having that big an unknown floating about is extremely dangerous. We don't necessarily need Sayaka to help us with this, we can try to make a spectroscope and look into them ourselves. We can also recruit help from Niko if Homura is willing to let her into the timestop. What we really shouldn't do though is end the timestop without having an idea about what's going on with the shades.
 
Can I just say that I loved how Riona got completely destroyed?
I loved that too.

Remember how smug she was?

"'I rip people's Souls out, screaming and kicking. It's not pretty and it's not nice. Who knows, maybe I've done it to some 'good people'. Wouldn't know for sure, I wouldn't. But here's how it is: You don't tell me how to do things, and I don't finish a fight neither of us want.'"

I really want to throw that line back at her, because she was so utterly adamant about deserving it 100%.

Not only did she lose that fight, it wasn't even a fight, and she completely and utterly lost it before it ever began.

And it says so much about her character, too. She just assumes she is the be all, end all magical girl when it comes to combat. She assumes she can dictate how things will go at her whim. It doesn't matter if she walks into someone's territory with no intel on who lives there, no preparation, no plan, and allies--she finishes any fight anyone starts, period. The only one who stops her from killing who she wants to is herself.

Which makes what happened here so beautiful. Rionna is so utterly defensive about what she does the moment anyone even seems to judge her for it. And she's used to being able to intimidate anyone she wants to into backing down or running away. Sabrina didn't even have to say anything for Rionna to get pissed off and indignant that anyone would dare to judge her to her face without a hint of fear, and so Rionna just threw her methods out into the open, as if saying, "this is what I do, and there's not a goddamn thing you can do about it; now stop judging me if you know what's good for you." And it never even occurs to her that she's just damning herself--she's literally spelling out why Sabrina shouldn't let Rionna go without exacting some kind of compromise or deal with her, but to Rionna, the very notion of compromising is absurd and offensive.

She came to take Sabrina's soul, like she has all the other grief manipulators, but she found that Sabrina isn't some immoral monster deceiving people and exploiting them. So she's not interested in making any deals, unless Sabrina is willing to give up her soul (or start a fight, which gives Rionna justification to steal her soul anyway). She doesn't immediately leave because she's interested in Sabrina's weird soul, more out of curiosity than anything.

But Sabrina is good at digging, and fearless, to boot. And she touches a nerve, gets too close to the truth, and Rionna reacts. She corrects Sabrina's assumption--she's not trying to revive her sister, but to exact revenge against her sister's killer (beyond what she's already done), but hasn't had much success so far. And then she demands to be allowed to leave (not that we'd ever explicitly or implicitly said she couldn't), immediately trying to mind control Sabrina to let her out of the privacy sphere--a reaction no doubt fueled by how utterly unsettled she was at being cut off from her shades, and feeling actually vulnerable for the first time in a very long time. Given how obsessed she is with being the top dog, and her inability (and outright refusal) to play nice with others, she can't handle not being in a position of absolute dominance, even when she willingly goes out of her way to walk into such a situation. Go figure. Play shitty games, win shitty prizes.

Rather than being the world's top dog, she was just an annoying (and unbearably rude) interruption to an otherwise very pleasant evening. A disappointing footnote whose main accomplishment was wasting a lot of our time and patience.
 
I am very satisfied by how we took Rhiohnnah down so fast she didn't even get to blink.

The hugpile was heartwarming as well.

And finally, my vote.

[X] Godwinson
 
Not that I'm advocating pushing the Witchbomb right now, but I'm reminding the thread that according to Magireco, Sayaka can completely shrug off the Witchbomb if she has a meaningful purpose, like saving Mami and stopping an evil fucking cult.

Fighting Witches isn't enough because it's a self-referential problem she can only feed into, as a Meguca who must eventually Witch out. Giving her a clear involvement in Dewitching, though?

Oh yea. She'd probably be fine in the long term, honestly. I'm sincerely not worried about Sayaka witching out.
 
I have this weird thought that Sabrina is just like in America when in conflict.

The most powerful magical girl but anything less than optimal victory will make her weary fast.
 
Why, Aura. Why do you tempt fate Firn so much.

What has Sayaka ever done to you to deserve it?

:V
 
Again, given what Riona's magic was, I'm fairly sure we won't be able to revive them, because that's not what her magic was intended to do. I don't think it has that function. We're not abandoning them- I'm fairly sure they're far too far gone to revive, rather than allowing them to move on to their final rest. Also, again, we told Sayaka it'd be her choice to learn the witchbomb. Pressuring her into learning it is a shitty thing to do as a friend.

Grief seeds weren't "intended" to turn back into soul gems either, yet we're still fully intent on reviving them. What makes shades more "far gone" then witches?

Unless you're arguing that we shouldn't bother with dewitching either - just smash the grief seeds and let the souls within go to their final rest, hm?
 
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