Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I'm going by this WoG, really:
Firn said:
My take from this is simply that Nadia doesn't know, because Riona's murders aren't big enough to catch her attention.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
I'm going by this WoG, really:
My take from this is simply that Nadia doesn't know, because Riona's murders aren't big enough to catch her attention.
My explanation was more aimed to why nobody ever told Nadia, see:
Nobody told her because nobody knew is my take on it.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I think that accounts for some, maybe most cases. What baffled me was that I'm pretty sure there should be more groups out there Riona can't just take on - that she's smarter than to try taking on, yet she's really... free and upfront regarding information of the shit she's pulled.
I'm pretty sure there's some groups out there who know, who would have killed Riona if they had come to blows. Riona's alive, so they didn't.
So I felt... Nadia should have known, that some of these few groups would go "hey, infobroker, there's this serial killer on the loose"...
And what I thought today is that we will be doing that (informing Nadia), but others groups just might not care enough to do so, because they're not Nadia's friends, and they're not out to save the world. A murderer escaped is just not their problem.
Gadjo
Doka
It's not the same situation. Grief seeds are container we know of, and they come from soul gems which is our end goal. The shades are kept by the power of someone who explicitly doesn't give a shit about things like helping and resurrecting people. So I suspect her magic probably doesn't keep them in a state where they can return to life.
Also, I really don't think she intended on just leaving after all that. I think she was trying to get out of a situation where she wasn't in control to be able to attack later. Showing up to gloat at us then leave is just... pointless.
Those are the groups Rionna never meets, because they handle their grief controller problems on their own and so she never travels to where they live.
I'll advocate for keeping the shades, but for a reason that hasen't been mentioned.
Riona takes out souls. Souls are now established to exist both before and after a soulgem made/destroyed.
If we can find a way to bind the souls back to bodies, we've found a way to revert Puella into humans.
Riona takes out souls. Souls are now established to exist both before and after a soulgem made/destroyed.
If we can find a way to bind the souls back to bodies, we've found a way to revert Puella into humans.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
This isn't different from Grief Seeds at all, just a different scale.
Grief Seeds also aren't made to be ressurrected. We don't, in fact, know any non time-travel method of restoring Grief Seeds, and are just hoping it's possible despite the fact the creation of a Grief Seed is a destructive process - the Soul Gem breaks.
The only de-Witching I think we know of is Kazumi Subaru, who is not actually Michiru Kazusa, but a clone. Kazusa is still a Witch in PMKM.
It's entirely possible Grief Seeds can't be turned back. We don't actually know much at all about them. We're just hoping.
If anything, I'd give shades a better chance to get restored than Grief Seeds. They, at least, might be full Souls, rather than only the corruption of hope that seems to make up a Witch.
While that's a possibility, Riona just leaving wouldn't have been pointless, at all. It would've been smart.
She didn't came here to gloat and leave, but to find an, in her mind, acceptable target, take her (our) Soul and leave. Recognizing we're too strong to take on safely and aborting is simply the smart thing to do. Cut loses, rather than fall into a sunk cost fallacy.
While I'm not certain that covers for all cases, this does give me a thought; the meguca groups that manage to repel Riona (with or without a fight), I guess they wouldn't be the sort to tell anyone there's a killer on the loose... they're probably killers themselves, too. Huh. :/
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Gadjo
Doka
My bigger objection, honestly- I have no problem with trying to see if the shades can be saved- is that pressuring Sayaka into the witchbomb right now would be very bad. It's supposed to be her choice, and making it seem urgent and important is going to cause her to completely disregard any warnings about her own safety in the pursuit of being useful.
Gadjo
Doka
Ehh I don't think she's the type to completely back down- look at how she behaved. I think she realized she was in a bit over her head, and once she decided she wanted to leave was intending to make a proper attack rather than attempting to attack us without her shades as backup. If she just wanted to leave, she could have stopped gloating, said some lie about how she'd think about our offer, and been halfway polite in an effort to get us to fuck off. As it was she did everything but sing "friends on the other side" using her shades as backup dancers.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I think both that she can take it -casually, if Aura's got his stuff right- and that she would blame us for not giving her the chance.
Yes, Sayaka would take the plunge if lives were on the line... because lives could well be on the line. If we don't give her this chance now, she might very well blame us and herself.
I can imagine tomorrow, we ask Sayaka whether she wants to learn the secret, as scheduled, we tell her, she puts two and two together and is outraged that we didn't tell this less than a day before, when it could have made a difference.
I think she would have all the right to feel outraged, but wouldn't feel just that, but also guilty. Guilty that she didn't say 'yes' to start with, because that's a thing Sayaka does. She blames herself if she feels there was a chance she could have saved someone. She blames herself canonically for not Wishing before Mami died, she would also blame herself here for not agreeing to be bombed before the Souls passed on.
So I would... at least ask Sayaka if she's thought about that talk we had. Ask how she's doing, put the focus on her, don't prod too much, maybe. I think the ideal solution is finding Sayaka's disposition towards learning the big secret without making it too obvious why it's urgent.
I don't think that meshes with what we've seen of her. That would'be been socially smart. Riona's been blunt and honest toa fault. She also couldn't deal with the implied threats and pressure she got from being 'caught' in our privacy sphere.
She basically reached the snapping point. While doing what you're saying would've been the smarter thing, if she wanted to attack us, I'll personally disagree that she would've done that.
Yeah, i'm pretty sure that by the time she wanted to leave she'd already decided not to attack us, because if she'd wanted to kill us she'd have opened with that instead of the Jedi Mind Trick.
- Location
- Illinois
Let me very clear about this, because my original statement has been blown out of proportion and subsequently that blown-up version has been attacked.
I said no *witnesses.*
Meguca are, as everyone here should know, highly territorial.
A strong meguca like Rionna with a signature like hordes of shades and ripping peoples' souls out -- this is something anyone observing goings-on would *remember.* Witnesses would have spread word of it eventually.
However, again, I said no *witnesses*, not... Whatever else. Guca are highly territorial! What are the odds that a significant number of meguca witness any given fight, when doing so would almost require them to be in the middle of a territorial incursion? Low, excepting any allies. Has it probably happened a couple times? I'd guess so, and I expect that when it happened the observers were not left alive, because again, strong, foreign magical girl with a unique signature.
I said no *witnesses,* not that she kills everyone in the area. That doesn't make it particularly less monstrous, nor does it particularly change the point I'm making, that if she wasn't murdering everyone who could report on her actions, Nadia would have heard something about an incredibly strong foreign magical girl matching Rionna's powers and looks showing up out of the blue, murdering people, and disappearing.
... Nor does it change the even more *basic* point I'm making, that if Nadia thinks Rionna doesn't travel much, Nadia clearly doesn't know jack shit about Rionna, and so isn't a reliable source when the question of Rionna's integrity is raised.
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Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
How? As you've noted, we already told her to copy it. And that aside, Sayaka isn't just standing by waiting for Sabrina's orders. She knows everything we do about shades. We've told her that they're probably cognizant on some level, that Riona wasn't really bothered about making sure they're all bad people, and that they need regular maintenance that apparently precludes Rionna from staying for brunch. Her needing to copy Ryona's power and try to take over the maintenance seems like a pretty clear conclusion from all that. So what justification can we give her from holding off on it, other than the infohazard?
And if we do get her to sleep on it, then she decides not to learn the Witchbomb, what then? Do we tell her never to copy Wriohna's power, then insist on no take backs when she changes her mind based on the new information?
Gadjo
Doka
I think she attempted the jedi mind trick because she was away from her main combat utility. It's like Sabrina attacking with her hammer because she can't get to her grief, for whatever reason.
It's not likely she would have been socially graceful, no, but if she were in the habit of gloating about everything she's done, then leaving, I'd think Nadia would have heard about it by now.
I really don't think pressuring her on it can end well, especially since it was supposed to be her choice.
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Gadjo
Doka
No, we just make it clear that she can't safely copy Riona's power then. Whether or not it'd change her mind, it's still not fair to pressure her into learning something that we specifically said was her choice.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That's exactly the level of pressure you're arguing against here.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I think we have to warn Sayaka that Rionna's power is connected to the secret at this point. It's really the only plausible explanation for why she shouldn't try to copy Rionna.
It's unfortunate that this puts some pressure on Sayaka to accept, but all indications are that Sayaka can handle the information, which is why we advanced the witchbomb process with her in the first place.
...Surely ripping people's souls out is Rionna's "main combat utility"?
It's unfortunate that this puts some pressure on Sayaka to accept, but all indications are that Sayaka can handle the information, which is why we advanced the witchbomb process with her in the first place.
...Surely ripping people's souls out is Rionna's "main combat utility"?
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- Location
- Illinois
Or...
We could just not bring it up unless she brings it up first.
You're kind of assuming Sayaka would *want* to copy Rionna's power when she isn't aware of the witchbomb. Between the necromancy, the mind control, the ripping peoples' souls out kicking and screaming, I don't really think that's a reasonable assumption. Sayaka is quick to judge and possessed of an iron morality. I'd rather expect her to go "why would I want that?"
So, no, I don't buy that it's "unfortunate but necessary."
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Gadjo
Doka
No her main combat utility is other people's souls. I suspect trying to rip our soul out would have given us time to react- time she usually buys herself by beating the crap out of her victims with her slave army. Without that, she probably knew it'd just result in us giving her an asswhupping.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
... Are you joking?
I legitimately don't understand this perspective.
Sayaka's definitely going to want to copy Rionna's power - there are indications that it's one of the only things that can help the shades, and moreover we told her to do it.
I basically agree entirely with Torg on this:
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Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Sure. We're in timestop. Any vote made before leaving it is as good as any other for the purposes of an external time pressure.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I'd like to go to Edinburgh and scout what the situation there is like before we release timestop. If the shades are going to go berserk anywhere, it'll probably start there.
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