Voting is open
I don't think she'd go that far. I also don't think she's THAT powerfull.

...why not Goku vs Vegeta, the final showdown when they died? It WOULD be epic
You're right, she probably can't snap-fire a physical Seal.

"If I die, Kakara and all her family and Clan forget how to breathe."

Kakara might feel guilty over dandeer dying to that, which is a totally valid argument, but the idea that she did the killing is bogus unless you go full consequentialist, and at that point literally every action you make is killing people for the sake of others, which just isn't how kakara lives.
Non Consequentialist PoV
Consequentialist PoV

The "Not Back Down" option is strictly superior to backing down, in both frameworks, under either of Yammar's choices. The only reason for kakara to flinch away would be guilt, which is fair but I think this kind of payoff is worth that cost, or confidence that she could win another way, which I don't share.

It's not Kakara killing dandeer any more than the dandeer-flail vs Berra was. It's just us not getting pressured out of this prisoner's Dilemma where we have the advantage. Yammar decided to play the stupid game, and if he wants to take the stupid prize then :shrug:.

This, too, although I would be willing to go for a communications vote, if one were offered convincingly. The only thing that prevented me from wanting to vote for this last time is my misconceptions about how fast IT is / how good we were at IT relative to the likes of Cell Saga Goku.
If you leave someone in front of a speeding train, you killed them as surely as if you shot them. Your intentional action (keeping them in one spot in the path of something deadly) resulted in their death.
 
You're right, she probably can't snap-fire a physical Seal.

"If I die, Kakara and all her family and Clan forget how to breathe."

If you leave someone in front of a speeding train, you killed them as surely as if you shot them. Your intentional action (keeping them in one spot in the path of something deadly) resulted in their death.
Sure, but Yammar isn't a speeding train. A train can't stop, so the consequentialist blame falls on the person who put them there. Here, maybe some of the blame falls on Kakara, but less than would have if, say, berra had blocked the dandeer flail and smooshed her. It's on yammar, for being dumb enough to hard precommit without understanding how they worked and then following through anyway despite how stupid it is, followed by Dandeer for mind controlling yammar without exercising elementary caution, then split between kakara and us-the-voters.
 
Oh, it totally would be... buuut PoptartProdigy has intentionally made this setting so that it's conceivably a sequel to Dragon Ball Super. Since the first page of the thread mentions that Goku and Vegeta lived a long time past the events we are shown in canon growing stronger all the while, and since DBS is still ongoing, writing out that fight would basically require that Poptart accurately predict whatever future canon events and powerups they get beyond literal godhood, UI, etc, as well as how those new powers develop in turn. Basically, it'd lock them into a specific path of potentially noncanon events for no real reason other than writing an (admittedly awesome) interlude.
I'd also say no, because hoo boy spoilers. ;)
 
You're right, she probably can't snap-fire a physical Seal.

"If I die, Kakara and all her family and Clan forget how to breathe."

If you leave someone in front of a speeding train, you killed them as surely as if you shot them. Your intentional action (keeping them in one spot in the path of something deadly) resulted in their death.
I don't want to put going lethal on the table either, but there's no way she can snap-fire anything of the sort. She would have had to set it up well in advance, it would have to be stronger than her literal specialty(mind control) to affect us without setting it up on us personally, and it's a spiteful death-move which seems incredibly unlikely given her selfish character - she wouldn't waste time on something that doesn't actually help her.
 
[X] In order to trial the combat system, I want an interlude playing as Goku, during his showdown with Freeza.

[X] Not me.
 
[X] Me!
Adhoc vote count started by Jrin on Sep 11, 2018 at 5:57 PM, finished with 31907 posts and 36 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by Jrin on Sep 12, 2018 at 8:04 AM, finished with 31946 posts and 41 votes.
 
Hey, @PoptartProdigy what's the limit for learning Styles to level of proficiency that they provide the +10 all the time? I mean, from both an 'avoid meta-gaming' perspective and a 'there's a limit to how many Styles of combat someone can train in before it becomes a useless blur' perspective there should be an upper limit, but I kind of want to learn as many Styles as possible to that level of basic proficiency, both for the bonuses, and for the possible uses as a way to simplify attempting to improve a balanced Style like Tien Style, plus as a shortcut to make up for our focus on Social up to this point. It doesn't matter if we're lacking from a Skill standpoint if we've got an additional +100 to dump on the fight. Of course, there's probably some kind of Trait (something along the lines of Combat Savant I'd assume) that lets you do that without some kind of penalty, but I don't expect this to work past, say, the fifth Style total. Maybe eight at an optimistic estimate.

That brings up another point. How many Styles do the Clans know of (I know it's on the Lore Screen I'm trying to make a point), and how many do our Otherworld friendlies (using that term very loosely here) know of that they don't? Presumably every Z-fighter has one (Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Tien, Chiaotzu, Krillin, Yamcha, Roshi, Buu, Popo, Kami, Dende, Yajirobe), and every major villain/antagonist (Frieza, Cell, Beerus, Hit, Zamasu), reformed or not, plus the Kais likely have their own set of Styles, but how many 'general' Styles are there that a bunch of people used, and did the Androids bother with a Style? Because somebody who has at least basic proficiency in all of those Styles seems like they'd be incredibly well-suited to upgrading the Piccolo and Tien Styles.

Another thing, about the whole, 'taking control of other people's KI' thing I was discussing a few pages back. Well, my idea is basically a bastardized genki dama. While the energy has to be voluntary, someone who tosses an energy blast at you isn't exactly trying to prevent you from receiving the energy, you're just... not receiving it in the way they intended. While Kakara technically isn't using her KI when using genki dama, it responds like it is, and causing something similar in enemy attacks seems possible, if not easy. The main hurdle is probably going to be the intent to harm inherent in an 'attack' though the control over Spirit Saiyan should provide some benefits to the effort.
 
Last edited:
Hey, @PoptartProdigy what's the limit for learning Styles to level of proficiency that they provide the +10 all the time? I mean, from both an 'avoid meta-gaming' perspective and a 'there's a limit to how many Styles of combat someone can train in before it becomes a useless blur' perspective there should be an upper limit, but I kind of want to learn as many Styles to that level of basic proficiency, both for the bonuses, and for the possible uses as a way to simplify attempting to improve a balanced Style like Tien Style, plus as a shortcut to make up for our focus on Social up to this point. It doesn't matter if we're lacking from a Skill standpoint if we've got an additional +100 to dump on the fight. Of course, there's probably some kind of Trait (something along the lines of Combat Savant I'd assume) that lets you do that without some kind of penalty, but I don't expect this to work past, say, the fifth Style total. Maybe eight at an optimistic estimate.

That brings up another point. How many Styles do the Clans know of, and how many do our Otherworld friendlies know of? Presumably every Z-fighter has one (Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Tien, Chiaotzu, Krillin, Yamcha, Roshi, Buu, Popo, Kami, Dende, Yajirobe), and every major villain/antagonist (Frieza, Cell, Beerus, Hit, Zamasu), reformed or not, plus the Kais likely have their own set of Styles, but how many 'general' Styles are there that a bunch of people used, and did the Androids bother with a Style? Because somebody who has at least basic proficiency in all of those Styles seems like they'd be incredibly well-suited to upgrading the Piccolo and Tien Styles.

Another thing, about the whole, 'taking control of other people's KI' thing I was discussing a few pages back. Well, my idea is basically a bastardized genki dama. While the energy has to be voluntary, someone who tosses an energy blast at you isn't exactly trying to prevent you from receiving the energy, you're just... not receiving it in the way they intended. While Kakara technically isn't using her KI when using genki dama, it responds like it is, and causing something similar in enemy attacks seems possible, if not easy. The main hurdle is probably going to be the intent to harm inherent in an 'attack' though the control over Spirit Saiyan should provide some benefits to the effort.
I think you can only be benefiting from one Style at a time.
 
Wait, I though it was 'Get a flat bonus to combat rolls. When doing a technique that is heavily involved in the Style, such as a Goku Stylist using Kamehameha, double the bonus.' or else getting multiple Styles, as we suspect Yammar has, would a be a major investment for the long-term payoff of the Elite+ Talent and the highly situational bonus, which seems like time better spent learning more Skills when you live in a society that doesn't actually need to sleep. Training to be skillful enough to be able to take down opponents without killing them seems like something Yammar would do if he regrets what happened with the Talts as much as he claims, and it seems likely that he has based on his attacks not killing a single person or seeming to overly risk such.
 
Last edited:
Wait, I though it was 'Get a flat bonus to combat rolls. When doing a technique that is heavily involved in the Style, such as a Goku Stylist using Kamehameha, double the bonus.' or else getting multiple Styles, as we suspect Yammar has, would a be a major investment for the long-term payoff of the Elite+ Talent and the highly situational bonus.
Styles do certain kinds of things. They fight in a specific way. You get style bonuses when fighting in a specific style in the way it works.

I hope it would be obvious, to use an artificial example, that one cannot fight in the form of 'all kicks while handstanding' and 'all punches while standing normally' at the same time? That applies to the philosophical divides between any two styles in general.
 
Last edited:
Wait, I though it was 'Get a flat bonus to combat rolls. When doing a technique that is heavily involved in the Style, such as a Goku Stylist using Kamehameha, double the bonus.' or else getting multiple Styles, as we suspect Yammar has, would a be a major investment for the long-term payoff of the Elite+ Talent and the highly situational bonus, which seems like time better spent learning more Skills when you live in a society that doesn't actually need to sleep. Training to be skillful enough to be able to take down opponents without killing them seems like something Yammar would do if he regrets what happened with the Talts as much as he claims, and it seems likely that he has based on his attacks not killing a single person or seeming to overly risk such.
Styles are about moving and fighting a certain way - you can't do two at once. You can switch between them to play to their strengths, but that's it.
 
Another thing, about the whole, 'taking control of other people's KI' thing I was discussing a few pages back. Well, my idea is basically a bastardized genki dama. While the energy has to be voluntary, someone who tosses an energy blast at you isn't exactly trying to prevent you from receiving the energy, you're just... not receiving it in the way they intended. While Kakara technically isn't using her KI when using genki dama, it responds like it is, and causing something similar in enemy attacks seems possible, if not easy. The main hurdle is probably going to be the intent to harm inherent in an 'attack' though the control over Spirit Saiyan should provide some benefits to the effort.
this would be an interesting technique to work on. It would take inspiration both from the genkidama and from androids 19-20 absorbing abilities. It would need to have some limitation though.

...thinking about it it strikes me more as a legendary talent for Genkidama or even the Overall skill "ki manipulation" that as a normal technique.
 
To be fair, he actually did manage to dodge once! It was pretty cool.
When I said 'Kid Gohan," I was intentionally excluding Episode 60's ongoing glory.

Sure. I am fully aware that there would be vote weighting against it, and Consequences. I am putting forth the option because I feel that many of the people here would be all for it, and it is a way around our current predicament.
If Yammar actually DOES do something that would lead to Dandeer dying faster than we can teleport out, among my approval vote choices will be:

[] Don't abort your jump. don't remain within close proximity of Yammar while he's enslaved. Especially not if he's crazy enough to try to vaporize Dandeer like this. Try to IT out ahead of it, as Goku did with Cell's Kamehameha.

This is in keeping with Kakara's personality. It may not be the maximally effective way of saving Dandeer, but it does try to save her. And quite frankly, if ITing out ahead of the blast won't save Dandeer once the blast has been fired, I'm not sure anything else Kakara could do would save her either, once it had been fired. If nothing else because Kakara hasn't had her growth spurt, and isn't physically large enough to shelter the entire body of a grown woman from a wide-angle blast that would otherwise vaporize her.

Assuming she doesn't have a dead-woman switch that makes the contingency on Berra look like a cakewalk.
I don't think she'd blow up the planet or otherwise doom it. Her kids live here, and say what you will about Dandeer she does seem to genuinely value her children in some warped way. Now, it's not inconceivable to me that she's so narcissistic or whatever that she only values them as extensions of her own person or something, but I still suspect that the consequences of any probable dead woman switch on Dandeer blowing up are less-bad than the known consequences of her winning.

You're right, she probably can't snap-fire a physical Seal.

"If I die, Kakara and all her family and Clan forget how to breathe."
This would require Dandeer to pre-design a contingency that specifically House Goku (and/or Clan Goku). And you know what? If she's done that and we die with no saving throw, I'm going to walk away from the quest satisfied.

Not that I expect Dandeer to have that exact contingency prepared.

If you leave someone in front of a speeding train, you killed them as surely as if you shot them. Your intentional action (keeping them in one spot in the path of something deadly) resulted in their death.
Well gee, if Yammar actually fires the blast, then what does Kakara do?

She can't throw Dandeer out of the way of the oncoming train fireball, because if the blast moves fast enough for super-saiyans to notice, Dandeer would splatter if thrown hard enough to get clear of the wavefront in time. She probably can't actually deflect the fireball or block it with her body because she's too small and Yammar must be using a lot of power to get this shot to cover the distance fast enough to stop Kakara from teleporting out.

What better option is she eschewing that would be a clearly superior way of saving Dandeer's life than to teleport out quickly, after Yammar has already fired?

Hey, @PoptartProdigy what's the limit for learning Styles to level of proficiency that they provide the +10 all the time? I mean, from both an 'avoid meta-gaming' perspective and a 'there's a limit to how many Styles of combat someone can train in before it becomes a useless blur' perspective there should be an upper limit...
Basically, each style represents a discrete and distinctive form of (ki-using) martial arts. They're as different from one another as judo, boxing, and wrestling. Thus, as a rule, you cannot use multiple styles simultaneously and certainly cannot stack them.

...and for the possible uses as a way to simplify attempting to improve a balanced Style like Tien Style, plus as a shortcut to make up for our focus on Social up to this point. It doesn't matter if we're lacking from a Skill standpoint if we've got an additional +100 to dump on the fight.
Uh... as a rule, I think learning the styles necessitates learning the component skills. Being good at Goku Style, for example, isn't a replacement for being good at hand-to-hand dueling and the other skills associated with it. It's a supplement that rewards you FOR using those skills, which you've already trained up.

That brings up another point. How many Styles do the Clans know of, and how many do our Otherworld friendlies (using that term very loosely here) know of that they don't? Presumably every Z-fighter has one (Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Tien, Chiaotzu, Krillin, Yamcha, Roshi, Buu, Popo, Kami, Dende, Yajirobe), and every major villain/antagonist (Frieza, Cell, Beerus, Hit, Zamasu), reformed or not, plus the Kais likely have their own set of Styles, but how many 'general' Styles are there that a bunch of people used, and did the Androids bother with a Style? Because somebody who has at least basic proficiency in all of those Styles seems like they'd be incredibly well-suited to upgrading the Piccolo and Tien Styles.
Learning the martial arts styles of every person on the list would take many centuries. At the end of that process, yes, you'd be very skilled and deadly in every possible condition of things. The problem is, well, living long enough and training hard enough to get there...

I would also like to clarify that the styles practiced by the Exiles are named after the various Ancestors. Goku Style isn't actually "the way Goku fights." It's "the way a bunch of people trained by people trained by people trained by Goku reconstructed something sort of like the way he fights, in honor of his memory."
 
Hey, @PoptartProdigy what's the limit for learning Styles to level of proficiency that they provide the +10 all the time? I mean, from both an 'avoid meta-gaming' perspective and a 'there's a limit to how many Styles of combat someone can train in before it becomes a useless blur' perspective there should be an upper limit, but I kind of want to learn as many Styles as possible to that level of basic proficiency, both for the bonuses, and for the possible uses as a way to simplify attempting to improve a balanced Style like Tien Style, plus as a shortcut to make up for our focus on Social up to this point. It doesn't matter if we're lacking from a Skill standpoint if we've got an additional +100 to dump on the fight. Of course, there's probably some kind of Trait (something along the lines of Combat Savant I'd assume) that lets you do that without some kind of penalty, but I don't expect this to work past, say, the fifth Style total. Maybe eight at an optimistic estimate.

That brings up another point. How many Styles do the Clans know of (I know it's on the Lore Screen I'm trying to make a point), and how many do our Otherworld friendlies (using that term very loosely here) know of that they don't? Presumably every Z-fighter has one (Goku, Vegeta, Piccolo, Gohan, Goten, Trunks, Tien, Chiaotzu, Krillin, Yamcha, Roshi, Buu, Popo, Kami, Dende, Yajirobe), and every major villain/antagonist (Frieza, Cell, Beerus, Hit, Zamasu), reformed or not, plus the Kais likely have their own set of Styles, but how many 'general' Styles are there that a bunch of people used, and did the Androids bother with a Style? Because somebody who has at least basic proficiency in all of those Styles seems like they'd be incredibly well-suited to upgrading the Piccolo and Tien Styles.

Another thing, about the whole, 'taking control of other people's KI' thing I was discussing a few pages back. Well, my idea is basically a bastardized genki dama. While the energy has to be voluntary, someone who tosses an energy blast at you isn't exactly trying to prevent you from receiving the energy, you're just... not receiving it in the way they intended. While Kakara technically isn't using her KI when using genki dama, it responds like it is, and causing something similar in enemy attacks seems possible, if not easy. The main hurdle is probably going to be the intent to harm inherent in an 'attack' though the control over Spirit Saiyan should provide some benefits to the effort.
As others have mentioned, styles only apply one at a time given that they are paradigms of combat rather than stackable techniques, and only when the person using them acts according to the style's norms.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. In lieu of that knowledge: ten (eleven if you count Satan style). There are some minor ones, but they're personal forms with no weight of institution. As for every other style...there are likely countless forms. Nobody can learn them all.

You're asking if you can absorb incoming attacks?
 
As others have mentioned, styles only apply one at a time given that they are paradigms of combat rather than stackable techniques, and only when the person using them acts according to the style's norms.

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. In lieu of that knowledge: ten (eleven if you count Satan style). There are some minor ones, but they're personal forms with no weight of institution. As for every other style...there are likely countless forms. Nobody can learn them all.

You're asking if you can absorb incoming attacks?

I will admit to misunderstanding how Styles worked, and... kind of? It's like how Kakara can direct the KI of other people in the genki dama, just in a position between the willingness of the genki dama and the unwillingness of Androids 19 and 20. You're not being given it willingly, but you aren't sapping someone's KI from their body. I figured someone who knew the genki dama could learn to do such, and since it's not necessary to bypass the person not wanting the KI out of their body, I figured not needing direct contact was feasible. If I'm out of left field and misunderstanding how KI works, please tell me because I don't want to bother you with crazy theories.
 
Okay, then upgrading Tien Style and learning/upgrading Skills seems like the best use of our time, since learning more than three Styles (long-range, mid-range and short-range Styles) seems like a waste of time. Hm, Vegeta, Tien, and Goku Styles seems like a balanced combo that covers most situations. Though with this clarification I'm in no hurry to learn any more Styles since Tien Style applies in a lot of situations and we haven't Mastered it..
Tien Style covers all situations. It is not the best at any but the point of it is that it is equally good at all situations so you fight the opponent at the range they are penalized in.
 
Okay, then upgrading Tien Style and learning/upgrading Skills seems like the best use of our time, since learning more than three Styles (long-range, mid-range and short-range Styles) seems like a waste of time. Hm, Vegeta, Tien, and Goku Styles seems like a balanced combo that covers most situations. Though with this clarification I'm in no hurry to learn any more Styles since Tien Style applies in a lot of situations and we haven't Mastered it..
Let's be fair: with all we have to learn and do, we'll hardly have the time to master more than one style. Maybe two if we can convince Jaffur to teach us his or decide to create that non-lethal style, maybe incorporating seer abilities (like a stile that has combat precognition as a skill).

And when one day we decide to go beyond the basic super saiyan (and sooner or later it has to happen if we want to move against the enemy) raw power takes precedence on skill. At least until we reach a new Power Level Cap
 
Last edited:
THIS i need to ask. Are there really Saiyan who use it?

..are they comedians?
There are not. That's really just me communicating my distinct lack of amusement with Satan. :p
I will admit to misunderstanding how Styles worked, and... kind of? It's like how Kakara can direct the KI of other people in the genki dama, just in a position between the willingness of the genki dama and the unwillingness of Androids 19 and 20. You're not being given it willingly, but you aren't sapping someone's KI from their body. I figured someone who knew the genki dama could learn to do such, and since it's not necessary to bypass the person not wanting the KI out of their body, I figured not needing direct contact was feasible. If I'm out of left field and misunderstanding how KI works, please tell me because I don't want to bother you with crazy theories.
In principle, it should be possible (and shouldn't even take an Elite+ talent), but if it's been invented, it's not in widespread use.
 
THIS i need to ask. Are there really Saiyan who use it?

..are they comedians?
I've been thinking about a hypothetical Satan style. It would be a purely ground-bound style (or possibly not, given how it's only a homage) built entirely around looking as impressive as possible and psyching your opponents out with bluffs, grandstanding and raw charisma. It would literally have Deceit as an Involved technique.
 
I've been thinking about a hypothetical Satan style. It would be a purely ground-bound style (or possibly not, given how it's only a homage) built entirely around looking as impressive as possible and psyching your opponents out with bluffs, grandstanding and raw charisma. It would literally have Deceit as an Involved technique.

...So it's Saiyan Wrestling?
 
Voting is open
Back
Top