Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- Athens, Greece
Many religious people believe an all-benevolent god tortures bad people in hell for all eternity, anyway -- so yeah, Riona only wanting to torture a single person, and that's for a specific and major crime against her (the killing of Riona's own sister), wouldn't immediately mark her as a "monster" to me or else I'd have to label most religious people as monsters too, pretty much anyone who believes in the concept of 'hell'.
And unlike the eternity of God's hell, Riona's hell would only last the few years that's the life expectancy of a magical girl.
This isn't an excuse for her actions (I do NOT condone any torture), but I hope it's a datapoint to help explain why she didn't come off as utterly morally black as you may have wanted.
mCooperative
meanderingCephalopod
- Location
- Back in Mitakihara after like 1000 years.
I notice you don't say whether or not she's been successful in that desire to torture said killer? (I.e. is the killer now a shade and are they actually insensate, or did she lie outright about that?) Or whether said killer has, in fact, been the subject of True Resurrection, and she is being tortured horribly, and possibly a research subject regarding True Resurrection, but that's wholly separate from the business with how the Shades work?
Are any of those things that you'd be willing to weigh in on, at this point in time? The moral reprehensibility of her actions with regard to her sister's killer aside, the fact that we're now (and I think have been for awhile at this point) half all arguing that your notes regarding her motivations are evidence that
her Shades do, in fact, suffer, versus a those who do not believe the information as presented is enough to confirm the idea that Rionna lied and her Shades are suffering, feels like a remaining point of disconnect? Or- it was recently enough that it's sticking in mind. Thread moves fast, maybe we're past that by this point. But rezzing her sister's killer for the purpose of vengeance is not incompatible with gaining Shading as a side effect that doesn't intrinsically come with "oh yeah and the souls all get tortured" as a feature. Any clarity would be appreciated, although of course, that's up to your discretion.
(Related, in general: With the confirmation that Riona's wish was to raise her sister's killer, we still lack the timeframe in which the events of her sister's death and her wish took place- this means it may have been in the timeframe, a week or so, indicated by the talk with Oriko, within which Riona could have retroactively nabbed her sister's soul. So she could still be holding onto it, or it could be in her hypothetical Edinburgh Science! Apparatus where she's hypothetically doing True Resurrection research, meaning we could still be forcing her to drop it if we anti-magic her. At this point, we're steadily running out of other options, but it's something to keep in mind.)
Although I suppose at this point, regardless of the state of her Shades, we've been given reasonably explicit enough indications of how to take her moral status, and how to proceed regarding that.
Hm, other thoughts. Right, we still need to be remembering that, while we could ask Sayaka to copy Riona's powers, it might not work, and if it does, that'll Witchbomb her, almost certainly. She still hasn't agreed to that. We're also not sure Sayaka can copy powers from unwilling persons, even aside from Rionna as a possible Special Circumstance. We're not sure if Sayaka would want to.
If we want to try and continue trying to push Riona on the redemption route and whatnot, gotta try throwing the idea of True Resurrection in there- if she wished to rez her sister's killer and got True Resurrection and then realized she wished bad and coulda got her sister back instead, she's prolly half all sublimated her rage at herself into her rage at her sister's killer. Otherwise, she'd prolly be rather dead, guilt-wise. So we gotta short circuit that before we go anywhere else, if she's been subsisting on that rage and murdervengeancethoughts. We'd have to throw in there- what? That we got friends who can make new bodies, and friends we know have at the very least the developable skills to pull off an incomplete Resurrection, with barely anything to work off. Hm. And really, I am still wondering why she's never tried to talk a potential into making a wish for True Resurrection for her.
Hm. Can Kirika selectively enchant- someone asked this already, I think- selectively enchant some of our Grief with Anti-magic that targets not-us? Like, could we have Anti-magic Grief Fog? Or- even without Kirika, our privacy construct inhibits Shades. Can we have a Privacy Fog set up with the same Privacy properties as our Sphere? That would pretty neatly deal with our Shade issues, I think- well, I mean, Rionna sensing the fog as her access to Shades are cut off, maybe. Or if the Shades could sense even ordinary grief fog? Because if we had fog that we could just spread everywhere and then instantaneously turn into a Privacy fog, that would be generally good, so long as it wasn't detected... Hm.
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Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
All this trouble deciding what to do.
Let's just hit her with the hammer.
[] "Stop, Hammertime!"
Hitting her with Kirika seems more productive. I mean, Kirika's antimagical.
So first of all I think we should admit we came in unprepared, I think we were expecting to meet Kyoko, rude and a maker of hard decisions but instead found Homura/Oriko at her worst and we don't have the levers that we have with Homura and Oriko.
Fortunately a lack of preparation can easily be rectified. We have a powerful trump card in the form of Homura and her timestop and we should really use it here. First of all I'd like to make some soul protection enchantments for everyone, I'd also like to replace Mami with a Mami clone to make doubly sure she's out of the line of potential fire (We can try out the magic control enhancer trick here to speed things up*). Finally if possible I'd like to replace Sabrina with a clone.
I'd also recommend heading over to see Kirika and picking up some anti-magic enchantments as well. This is in case we have to disable or gem Riona, mostly I'm worried that if anyone is capable of still acting after being gemmed it's going to be the experienced soul manipulator. If we gem her we need to stick anti-magic on her as well.
Other useful things to make would be a lie detector, a Shade spotter and making our privacy field have a filer so Sabrina and her allies can see through it. It might also be worth taking a look and examine her shades, her magic drink and whatever else we feel like we need to look at.
Additionally while under timestop we can also have a meeting about just how we want to handle Riona. This is probably going to be the first thing we do after we initiate the timestop.
Once we've done all this I feel like we'll finally be prepared. In fact we might be over prepared but in this case I feel like its necessary, this is a potentially very dangerous opponent and we have little true insight into her psychology.
Some other notes, mostly repeating what's been said;
Riona is feeling backed into a corner, she tried to mind whammy us into ending the privacy field. I suspect this is because she's not getting feedback from her Shades and that sets her on edge.
Most importantly Mami is right here in the line of fire and we don't know what Riona is capable of. This is the big thing for me, it's entirely possible that Riona will escalate and attack Mami, I think it's important we either deescalate the situation by turning off the privacy field or set more defenses to keep Mami safe. Preferably we'll do both since doing anything less than our best to keep Mami and everyone else safe is unacceptable to me.
If we decide to gem Riona that's OK since we can copy her power with Sayaka. I mean it's not as good as properly redeeming her but it's a decent second best.
We don't necessarily have to attack right now if that's what we decide to go with, she's going to be here a while and we can do so at a later point if she continues to decide to stay on the path of darkness.
What I'd like to do:
[X] Plan Cautious Optimism
-[X] "I didn't intend for you to feel trapped, this is merely a privacy device to allow us to talk without being overheard by Kyubey or other parties, if it makes you feel uneasy I'll certainly turn if off although I do request that any further conversation not be about serious topics"
-[X] Simultaneously communicate with Mami using Grief and ask for a Homrua Timestop Meeting.
-[X] Grab everyone and hold a timestop meeting.
--[X] we have background music if it makes everyone feel better about spending time in timestop.
-[X] Set up preparations for dealing with Riona.
-[X] If we decide not to attack.
--[X] Get back into position and continue the meeting, take down the privacy field.
--[X] Tell Riona that in light of her circumstances, attitude and the attempted mental alteration we ask that she not attack, make shades, or use magic without permission during her time here.
--[X] Ask if she wishes to continue to talk without the privacy field.
--[X] Set up another meeting.
I think that should work out pretty well, it's basically playing safe and preparing for a fight but also being optimistic that with a bit of time RIona might come around (I personally doubt it, but we should at least try).
Fortunately a lack of preparation can easily be rectified. We have a powerful trump card in the form of Homura and her timestop and we should really use it here. First of all I'd like to make some soul protection enchantments for everyone, I'd also like to replace Mami with a Mami clone to make doubly sure she's out of the line of potential fire (We can try out the magic control enhancer trick here to speed things up*). Finally if possible I'd like to replace Sabrina with a clone.
I'd also recommend heading over to see Kirika and picking up some anti-magic enchantments as well. This is in case we have to disable or gem Riona, mostly I'm worried that if anyone is capable of still acting after being gemmed it's going to be the experienced soul manipulator. If we gem her we need to stick anti-magic on her as well.
Other useful things to make would be a lie detector, a Shade spotter and making our privacy field have a filer so Sabrina and her allies can see through it. It might also be worth taking a look and examine her shades, her magic drink and whatever else we feel like we need to look at.
Additionally while under timestop we can also have a meeting about just how we want to handle Riona. This is probably going to be the first thing we do after we initiate the timestop.
Once we've done all this I feel like we'll finally be prepared. In fact we might be over prepared but in this case I feel like its necessary, this is a potentially very dangerous opponent and we have little true insight into her psychology.
Some other notes, mostly repeating what's been said;
Riona is feeling backed into a corner, she tried to mind whammy us into ending the privacy field. I suspect this is because she's not getting feedback from her Shades and that sets her on edge.
Most importantly Mami is right here in the line of fire and we don't know what Riona is capable of. This is the big thing for me, it's entirely possible that Riona will escalate and attack Mami, I think it's important we either deescalate the situation by turning off the privacy field or set more defenses to keep Mami safe. Preferably we'll do both since doing anything less than our best to keep Mami and everyone else safe is unacceptable to me.
If we decide to gem Riona that's OK since we can copy her power with Sayaka. I mean it's not as good as properly redeeming her but it's a decent second best.
We don't necessarily have to attack right now if that's what we decide to go with, she's going to be here a while and we can do so at a later point if she continues to decide to stay on the path of darkness.
What I'd like to do:
[X] Plan Cautious Optimism
-[X] "I didn't intend for you to feel trapped, this is merely a privacy device to allow us to talk without being overheard by Kyubey or other parties, if it makes you feel uneasy I'll certainly turn if off although I do request that any further conversation not be about serious topics"
-[X] Simultaneously communicate with Mami using Grief and ask for a Homrua Timestop Meeting.
-[X] Grab everyone and hold a timestop meeting.
--[X] we have background music if it makes everyone feel better about spending time in timestop.
-[X] Set up preparations for dealing with Riona.
-[X] If we decide not to attack.
--[X] Get back into position and continue the meeting, take down the privacy field.
--[X] Tell Riona that in light of her circumstances, attitude and the attempted mental alteration we ask that she not attack, make shades, or use magic without permission during her time here.
--[X] Ask if she wishes to continue to talk without the privacy field.
--[X] Set up another meeting.
I think that should work out pretty well, it's basically playing safe and preparing for a fight but also being optimistic that with a bit of time RIona might come around (I personally doubt it, but we should at least try).
Basically the idea is we make a magic control enhancing item then give it to Mami so that she can wear it and then make her own temporary magic control enhancing item. Then she uses the item she made to make another two hopefully permanent magic control enhancing items one for herself and one for Sabrina.
Steps:
1: get 2 golds rings and a rock
2: make magic control enhancing item[1]
3: give magic control enhancing item[1] to Mami
4: Mami uses magic control enhancing item[1] to make magic control enhancing item[2] using a rock
5: Mami uses magic control enhancing item[2] to make two more magic control enhancing items using the rings.
Steps:
1: get 2 golds rings and a rock
2: make magic control enhancing item[1]
3: give magic control enhancing item[1] to Mami
4: Mami uses magic control enhancing item[1] to make magic control enhancing item[2] using a rock
5: Mami uses magic control enhancing item[2] to make two more magic control enhancing items using the rings.
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NavySeel
"I don't know what I'm doing."
- Location
- Places
I didn't come up with a cheesy oneliner for hitting her with Kirika though...
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Me neither.
Only veeery inappropriate
"Hey, how about you let Kirika hit on you?"
- Location
- Athens, Greece
I don't see why we'd be releasing her from the field at all, even briefly, if it's been decided that even a short-term truce with her is not in Sabrina's character, that Sabrina considers it a moral obligation to stop her before leaving Mitakihara.
The purpose of the time-stop conference (that I'm now voting for) would be to inform our allies, so that (a) they can help us if we need reinforcements, (b) they don't get blindsided or annoyed by us opening a new war, (c) so we can figure out how best to contain her and her powers.
The concept of 'redeeming' a character in the span of a single day seems to me silly and implausible. If Riona must be imprisoned either today or tomorrow, then today is safer for all of us.
The purpose of the time-stop conference (that I'm now voting for) would be to inform our allies, so that (a) they can help us if we need reinforcements, (b) they don't get blindsided or annoyed by us opening a new war, (c) so we can figure out how best to contain her and her powers.
The concept of 'redeeming' a character in the span of a single day seems to me silly and implausible. If Riona must be imprisoned either today or tomorrow, then today is safer for all of us.
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
I want to make a note here that religious people also believe the judging of who goes to hell is done by an omniscient and usually some degree of benevolent being/force.
Who is not personally biased against the person being judged.
So you could make an argument for blasphemy, plus if you're not religious, being judged for a crime by the kin of the victim is pretty much the definition of a kangaroo court.
Rionna is pretty bad. But she's still talking.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Okay, this has come up before, so I want to say that I very much doubt Rionna is Feathers. Instead, I'm of the opinion that the two most likely candidates are and remain Homucifer, and Ourselves. Even then I mostly heed the latter to any degree because of the consequences and need to adjust our plans to stop ourselves if it is true, rather than the likelihood of it being true.
We've seen Feathers acting to attack Sayaka and, if Oriko's words are any indication, there are likely numerous other moves Feathers could have made, but didn't. (Since she mentioned other events and I doubt they all happened in the future-as-of-now.)
On the one hand, I imagine that what we've seen of Rionna's direct soul manipulation should be sufficient for her to block Oriko's precog if she meets her, and possibly without such a meeting depending on what powers she has enslaved. (which we notably haven't seen evidence for)
On the other, in order for Rionna to interfere with Sayaka last Wednesday, she'd have needed to either be present then and there --- in which case why focus on Sayaka rather than meeting or or dealing with us? --- or she'd need an esoteric power like time travel, which is a problem because even Homura's power doesn't work that way --- Homura travels between parallel worlds, not within one.
More than that, all indications are that that wasn't a one time thing. For one Feathers is noted during the timestop of Direct Intervention to block out Madoka frequently. Which means that Rionna would be travelling to or interfering with us on numerous occasions. It being some version of Homura on the other hand correlates well with keeping an eye on Madoka.
This is helped because, I'm of the opinion that you can explain the events and rationale behind the incident in Our Benefactor quite nicely if it turns out that Homucifer is involved. (Though, in retrospect, that particular telling of the scenario strikes me as a glossing over a bit too much.)
Regardless, the more time goes by, the more I feel that we really, really, need to look into who and what Feathers is, or at least disprove some possibilities, the exact instant this confrontation with Rionna is over.
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The reason to drop the field is to deescalate the situation. Also it doesn't really help us since she can still probably attack Mami from within the field.
The field does however seem to stop her from properly communicating with her shades though, so if we do decide to go for immediate combat it would be helpful to have it up.
To refer to the redeeming a character part, well I mean it worked with Oriko right? We fired the friendship guns and turned her into an ally. Although I guess we might have to beat Riona into the ground first before that happens with her.
I like your plan in general, but I'd much prefer to call in a timestop immediately rather than wait for after the meeting. This should reduce the chance that Riona might do something we'd all regret and also allow everyone on our team to be on the same page for deciding what we want to do. Basically I want as much protection up as fast as possible and I don't see any reason to wait for even a moment to set things in motion.
Also I think as far as anti-magic goes it might be best to hit her with as much as possible and it's crucial we stick some of it on her Soul Gem, also some physical shocks as well (e.g. punch her in the face). Anti-magic paint-balls from Homura, anti magic tape from Mami, Anti-Magic cuffs from Sabrina, Anti-magic burst from Kirika etc. Although with any luck it'll turn out to be unnecessary to have it all prepared.
As for the stuff explicitly in Red, I'd like some proper preparation before we take her on. Anti-magic is good but I'd also like soul protection and to replace everyone with clones so that we're absurdly well protected. Also to find out where her Shades are hiding if we think that's needed.
Also on an unrelated note
Timelines seem to be operating on Terminator rules, basically being different dimensions. So if if anyone knows the answers to these questions I'd be happy if could answer them.
So what happens to each timeline's original Homura? (my guess is they merge? Or maybe the original is erased?)
When Madokami occurs what happens to the previous timelines Witches? Are they also erased? (my guess is yes)
What happened to the Madokas of all the other timelines, are they also erased? (my guess is also yes)
Is actual time travel impossible? (my guess is yes)
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Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
1. They prooobably merge. @mCooperative provided me with a theory they've heard that each Homura the original one goes through gets pulled in the same way Madoka does. It would explain having the Potential to Wish for the second time and, well, whatever the hell she did in the Rebellion.
2. As it was explained to me, Madokami merges all the timelines Homura went through and then retroactively becomes a goddess in this new timeline. So yeah, Witches are erased.
3. They are merged together with Madokami, even more certainly than Homura. Do you remember that ( creepy as fuck "shudders" ) transformation intro in the Rebellion? There are several Madokas dancing together, which is, as metaphors go, pretty telling. Also the same in Ultimate Madoka's Magia in that game, I guess.
4. I guess it is possible. Homura didn't Wish for Time Travel exactly. She Wished to meet Madoka once again, so that she will be able to protect her this time instead.
Also, Madoka timetravels through all the time when she Wished to erase all the Witches. She's literally splattered all over the timeline.
- Location
- Athens, Greece
If we want to stop her, we *don't* want to deescalate the situation.
Unless the 'deescalation' is a tactical ploy (which to me doesn't make sense, as we lose more than we gain by it), I see no further sense in deescalation. I was pushing for deescalation when I wanted us to have at least a truce and perhaps some concessions from her side (e.g. a pause on her collection of *more* shades), not if stopping her behavior immediately and in its entirety is a moral imperative for Sabrina.
No, first we stomped Oriko into the ground, then she still wasn't being cooperative, so we threatened to torture the love of her life into insanity in front of her eyes. That's what turned her into an 'ally', not yet a friend, of course.
As for later befriending Oriko, probably whole essays could be written as to how much of that is a case of genuine friendship, and how much is Stockholm syndrome. But either way we didn't succeed in befriending Oriko before first utterly defeating and breaking her, physically and psychologically.
[x] Onmur
As to why I voted Muramasa? Simple as that was the only vote that wanted to de-escalate the situation that seemed to have traction. I didn't say anything as I thought Onmur's arguments are similar to what Muramasa was going for, or that he will come back to refine it. Yea I could have switched to Onmur later on down the line, but I didn't due to circumstances that happened for me outside the quest.
I usually don't have the time to talk and argue in detail regarding votes, so that's why I trust the one I vote for to do it and just show my support for them.
Also a note Kaizuki's tag post was at 3:56am for me. Nothing noteworthy in of it self in this case. Just a note to keep in mind that people live in different timezones and to give them some time.
As to why I voted Muramasa? Simple as that was the only vote that wanted to de-escalate the situation that seemed to have traction. I didn't say anything as I thought Onmur's arguments are similar to what Muramasa was going for, or that he will come back to refine it. Yea I could have switched to Onmur later on down the line, but I didn't due to circumstances that happened for me outside the quest.
I usually don't have the time to talk and argue in detail regarding votes, so that's why I trust the one I vote for to do it and just show my support for them.
Also a note Kaizuki's tag post was at 3:56am for me. Nothing noteworthy in of it self in this case. Just a note to keep in mind that people live in different timezones and to give them some time.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Okay, with the latest Word of Firn making things entirely clear, I think I'm going to be able to participate in the thread constructively.
The first note to make is a quote from Firn, in the author's note at the end of the update.
But wait, what was that "most of them"?
And Rionna will never let those souls go, guilty or innocent--
What does she want the most?
Your wish gives you what you want the most, and your magic reflects that.
Rionna didn't get an 'unfortunate power', that corrupted her because it was 'necessary', that's not how wishes work.
Rionna's magic is to kill, to enslave, and to torment those under her power. Because that is what she wished for. That is what she wanted.
Rionna isn't going to change. This isn't something that we can talk around in the span of a few hours, or even the entire time she's here. And that assumes that she was willing to sit and listen, and she quite clearly isn't.
Rionna isn't Oriko, destroying things while being careful that no-one is killed (closing Sayaka's bedroom door before setting the fire), because she believes it will save countless lives.
Rionna isn't Kyouko, standing by while familiars get free, so that she can survive another week, ashamed of her inaction and too proud to admit it.
Rionna isn't Homura, killing in order to protect someone and stopping as soon as she realizes it isn't necessary, all because she's trapped in an endless cycle of misery.
Rionna isn't even Akiko, forcing other magical girls to pay ruinous grief seed tributes and knowingly damning them to becoming witches in the process, and refusing to change this regardless of offers of free cleansing.
Rionna is far worse, because everyone else I just listed commits evils in the sake of some good, whether grand or petty. With Rionna, the evils she commits are the ends she seeks.
That isn't something that can be negotiated away. That isn't something where de-escalation is even the slightest bit meaningful, because that requires that the other party be negotiating.
Rionna is not negotiating. She never has been.
She made it clear right up front that the one thing she wanted was another slave.
There are a few important notes to make on this topic. I'm responding to you because you framed it most succinctly, but this is a general post, not an attempt to try to call you out in particular.
The first note to make is a quote from Firn, in the author's note at the end of the update.
Rionna? Quite aggressively feels no contrition. And why should she? That would require rejecting her wish:
Meaning that the question of whether her shades are aware?
That's malevolent apathy. Especially because her targets?
Now just what qualifies as deserving it?
Sure, killing people is bad, except here's a problem -- magical girls fight one another a lot over resources. A lot of that fighting can well end up killing someone. We very nearly killed Oriko and Kirika, simply because we didn't see any way to make sure they wouldn't hurt anyone else.
But wait, what was that "most of them"?
Rionna doesn't hold very strong standards for what constitutes deserving having your soul tormented indefinitely.
And Rionna will never let those souls go, guilty or innocent--
--because she doesn't really care if they are. Because it's about punishment and power.
The only thing she wants is more power, to use it to kill and enslave and torture people, the only thing she wants from Sabrina?
Is to make Sabrina her slave too. And the only reason she hasn't?
She doesn't want allies, she doesn't want resources, she doesn't want an easier life.
What does she want the most?
Your wish gives you what you want the most, and your magic reflects that.
In Madoka Magica, you get what you wished for.
Rionna didn't get an 'unfortunate power', that corrupted her because it was 'necessary', that's not how wishes work.
Rionna's magic is to kill, to enslave, and to torment those under her power. Because that is what she wished for. That is what she wanted.
Rionna isn't going to change. This isn't something that we can talk around in the span of a few hours, or even the entire time she's here. And that assumes that she was willing to sit and listen, and she quite clearly isn't.
Rionna isn't Oriko, destroying things while being careful that no-one is killed (closing Sayaka's bedroom door before setting the fire), because she believes it will save countless lives.
Rionna isn't Kyouko, standing by while familiars get free, so that she can survive another week, ashamed of her inaction and too proud to admit it.
Rionna isn't Homura, killing in order to protect someone and stopping as soon as she realizes it isn't necessary, all because she's trapped in an endless cycle of misery.
Rionna isn't even Akiko, forcing other magical girls to pay ruinous grief seed tributes and knowingly damning them to becoming witches in the process, and refusing to change this regardless of offers of free cleansing.
Rionna is far worse, because everyone else I just listed commits evils in the sake of some good, whether grand or petty. With Rionna, the evils she commits are the ends she seeks.
That isn't something that can be negotiated away. That isn't something where de-escalation is even the slightest bit meaningful, because that requires that the other party be negotiating.
Rionna is not negotiating. She never has been.
She made it clear right up front that the one thing she wanted was another slave.
Hmm pretty convincing. Well it doesn't really change what I want to do which is stop time, prepare for battle and then ask the team what they want to do* (which is probably battle).
I'm personally inclined to try and talk things out a bit more if only so we can truly know that we tried everything we could to reach her, but ultimately I feel pretty sure things are going to end up in a fight. When that fight happens I definitely want to be holding all the cards whether the fight happens immediately or tomorrow.
*Irrelevant personal thought I can't bring myself to delete (I mean there's still questions of how much of this is a just a tough front, how much is it her self-medicating, and other similar things but ultimately those don't really absolve her of what she's doing so while they're relevant and add context they don't really change how we should act.)
I'm personally inclined to try and talk things out a bit more if only so we can truly know that we tried everything we could to reach her, but ultimately I feel pretty sure things are going to end up in a fight. When that fight happens I definitely want to be holding all the cards whether the fight happens immediately or tomorrow.
I do disagree with this though, a wish grants you your wish. Sometimes that wish is really dumb or otherwise not what you actually want. That's not really a surprise considering how Kyubey operates.
*Irrelevant personal thought I can't bring myself to delete (I mean there's still questions of how much of this is a just a tough front, how much is it her self-medicating, and other similar things but ultimately those don't really absolve her of what she's doing so while they're relevant and add context they don't really change how we should act.)
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Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Giving her time to send different commands to her shades means that she will be ready for a fight against us, rather than against a typical grief controller.
Kyuubey has no control over the wish. He's not an evil genie, he can't corrupt it. The problem is when your wish doesn't cover everything you're wanting. And as for Rionna? We know what her wish was about.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
MagiReco. Girl wants the fire she accidentally started that killed her family to not have happened, ends up wiping her own memory of the events and replacing it with a fabrication. When she finds out she's absolutely horrified. (Presumably her desire to not be responsible for her family's deaths was, in the moment, stronger then her desire to get them back.)
I don't think Rionna is at all a case of this - she seems to be in a very similar situation to Kagari Hinata, who similarly wished to torment someone as much as possible - but there absolutely is precedent for a wish made in a moment of confused emotions to be "corrupted", even if it's not QB doing the corrupting.
I agree that the absolute best move as far as combat goes is to timestop and crush her immediately.
I didn't mean to imply that Kyubey alters the wish but rather that people often don't wish for what they really want. This isn't specific to Riona, I have no idea if what she really wanted was to torture a dead person of if she just made a dumb wish and covers it up by putting up a front. Basically what I'm saying is that a wish doesn't necessarily reflect a person's true desires.
Examples:
Mami probably would have wanted her parents brought back too but only wished to not die.
Sayaka wanted to date Kyosuke but wished to heal him.
Kyubey seems to aim for people to make dumb wishes that they regret, this is unsurprising if it's true since he gets power from them witching out.
- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
How do we point her, though? Rionna is not currently disposed to listen to us. Hell, if I'm reading the update right, she outright hates us. Merely getting her on our side will at least be as difficult as a redemption effort, with less garuntee of Riona not turning against us or going apeshit to boot.
Because Riohnna, unless we inspire or uncover some sort of regret, will continue to be a vengeful, soul-slaving bastard. If, by some miracle, we get Rhiona to cooperate, every bad thing she does while "on our side" is on us.
- Location
- Potato land
To offer a counterpoint: Tactically, the point of backing off would be to gather actionable intelligence. One of the greatest disadvantages we face is not being able to detect Rionna's shades. I wouldn't be surprised, however, if we were capable of doing it somehow, between all the powers our group has available. I think that's worth looking into.
You have a good point about timestop, and I'd like to add that even if we avoid bringing Rionna herself into it via contact with a shade, it's still incredibly likely that Rionna has some kind of long-range sensory ability, either inherently or from one of her shades. And so, she may very well be able to figure out that we have some kind of unknown ability, even if she won't know what that is exactly. The outward signs of us talking in timestop won't be so difficult to notice, after all.
Rionna is absolutely going to be on guard at least until she boards her return flight. But then, we aren't really constrained by physical distance. How about attacking in Edinburgh, right after she arrives? She should be somewhat more relaxed then, and the area around the airport won't have nearly as much opportunity for collateral damage as a hotel in the middle of a city. And we, on the other hand, will hopefully have all our ducks in a row and a fullproof plan ready, as well as a way to counter her shades.
I think it can work if we're careful enough right now, and we'd avoid some of the issues with the alpha strike - making a unilateral decision without consulting our friends, running into unknown unknowns related to Rionna's power, collateral damage due to the location, and so forth. On the other hand, if we do this, our plan for this update definitely shouldn't be to just casually enter timestop like complete carebears.
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