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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Godwinson said:
I want to point out that, well, seeing someone who is clearly pissed off at you and conflicted about something suddenly calming down?

That can really easily look like they're about to start a fight.
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I mean, sure, that is a risk, but continuing to ride high on our emotions isn't exactly a great approach either. No doubt Sabrina literally grinding her teeth and such has made it a lot harder for Rionna to put any kind of stock into our claims that we want to help her.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I mean, sure, that is a risk, but continuing to ride high on our emotions isn't exactly a great approach either. No doubt Sabrina literally grinding her teeth and such has made it a lot harder for Rionna to put any kind of stock into our claims that we want to help her.
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I think the point being that trying to be overly cordial is going to come across as fake, rather than calmed down. Sabrina is disgusted with what she's done, and she's nooooot terribly subtle, as a person. As in, it'll look more like "here, calm down while I think of how I should kick your ass."
 
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Gadjo said:
I think the point being that trying to be overly cordial is going to come across as fake, rather than calmed down. Sabrina is disgusted with what she's done, and she's nooooot terribly subtle, as a person. As in, it'll look more like "here, calm down while I think of how I should kick your ass."
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I mean, "not showing Rionna your internal strife" really isn't the same thing as being "overly cordial". Neither is going for five minutes without mentioning how disgusted Sabrina is with Rionna's actions.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I mean, "not showing Rionna your internal strife" really isn't the same thing as being "overly cordial". Neither is going for five minutes without mentioning how disgusted Sabrina is with Rionna's actions.
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Looking at your vote, the issue isn't actually overly cordial- I misread and thought an edit of your vote was just your vote. My bigger issue there would probably be showing her the feather (I feel like it might end badly, but can't specifically think of a reason why), and seeing if her shades are suffering? She... has taken quite a few by force, and they are souls. I can't imagine it's pleasant, and at best they're being denied their eternal rest in the afterlife, which is a thing that exists here, madokami or no.
 
Gadjo said:
My bigger issue there would probably be showing her the feather (I feel like it might end badly, but can't specifically think of a reason why)
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In truth, I don't particularly expect Brinapilot to go in that direction unless there's a particularly appropriate opening for it, and even if it does, I don't expect much to come of it. I don't think it'll actually hurt our position if we do choose to use that opening, though, and it is a potential point of interest.

Gadjo said:
seeing if her shades are suffering? She... has taken quite a few by force, and they are souls. I can't imagine it's pleasant, and at best they're being denied their eternal rest in the afterlife, which is a thing that exists here, madokami or no.
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I'm... very, very leery of using the afterlife as an argument point. At worst, it leads to the same train of thought as killing babies after they're baptized, at best, it's a claim that Sabrina doesn't have any evidence to support.

If Rionna's power doesn't implicitly provide her with evidence of an afterlife, I think it's going to be very difficult to shift her position on the topic - not least because believing there isn't an afterlife would very likely be a key part of her own coping mechanisms. It's a lot easier to justify keeping souls around in a semi-peaceful state if you believe the alternative is casting them into oblivion.
 
Redshirt Army said:
I'm... very, very leery of using the afterlife as an argument point. At worst, it leads to the same train of thought as killing babies after they're baptized, at best, it's a claim that Sabrina doesn't have any evidence to support.
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Uh, we don't have evidence, but we know for certain by way of metaknowledge that it's a thing. Whether Riona will believe such is one thing, but the facts are not contingent on her belief. Er, also it is nothing like that argument, since those people are already dead. You're not killing them to let them go.
 
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Gadjo said:
I... figured the moral wrongness in preventing the dead from reaching their eternal rest by enslaving them to their murderer for eternity was self-evident. How silly of me.
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*Looks at banner*

You can answer without this sort of sarcasm.

Redshirt Army said:
If Rionna's power doesn't implicitly provide her with evidence of an afterlife, I think it's going to be very difficult to shift her position on the topic - not least because believing there isn't an afterlife would very likely be a key part of her own coping mechanisms. It's a lot easier to justify keeping souls around in a semi-peaceful state if you believe the alternative is casting them into oblivion.
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Personally, I would be against bringing up the afterlife. We only have metaknowledge of sidematerials to confirm such a thing exists; this isn't something that can have any bearing on a conversation with Riona. Not now, not in a long time.

My moral objection against Riona keeping shades is along the lines that a person becomes what they practice.

A character that summons ghosts/souls? I'm pretty sure there's more than one Lawful Good protagonist with such a powerset. It could be a nice person using this power for good.

The problem stems from Riona's issues and practicing slavery makes on a slaver. Even if she had the best intentions, this would be a thin line to walk through.

Also, yes, Riona's probably in denial.
 
Gadjo said:
Uh, we don't have evidence, but we know for certain by way of metaknowledge that it's a thing. Whether Riona will believe such is one thing, but the facts are not contingent on her belief.
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I'm aware that the afterlife exists in PMMM. But if Rionna doesn't already believe that, we aren't going to be able to convince her otherwise. We have no evidence, in character.

Gadjo said:
Er, also it is nothing like that argument, since those people are already dead. You're not killing them to let them go.
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I'm not sure that them being "already dead" changes things? Rionna's power is mostly an issue because the ghosts are bound to her service, and to obey her commands. It's the mind control aspect that's immoral, moreso then the "continued existance as a ghost" part.

Or, to put it in other words, if it's possible to "release" Rionna's ghosts from being bound to her service, without also causing them to dissipate, I'd consider that a more optimal solution then just dispelling them all.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
I'm aware that the afterlife exists in PMMM. But if Rionna doesn't already believe that, we aren't going to be able to convince her otherwise. We have no evidence, in character.
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Actually, does Madokahalla exist here? I'm fairly sure it was only created after Madoka made the "destroy all witches with my own two hands" in canon.

Well, Joan of Arc did ascend herself to Valhalla instead of witching, despite the fact that Madokami wasn't a thing in that iteration of the universe and Madoka wasn't going to be born for several centuries. But we don't know what's going on with that in PMAS.
 
Shadowhisker said:
Actually, does Madokahalla exist here? I'm fairly sure it was only created after Madoka made the "destroy all witches with my own two hands" in canon.

Well, Joan of Arc did ascend herself to Valhalla instead of witching, despite the fact that Madokami wasn't a thing in that iteration of the universe and Madoka wasn't going to be born for several centuries. But we don't know what's going on with that in PMAS.
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Beyond the fact that Madokami clearly has some sort of interaction with this timeline, given her cameo in the first update, there's plenty of evidence for an afterlife in the side mangas like Oriko Magica, which were also set before Madoka made the Madokami wish. Magia Record is a bit screwy given recent revelations on where it fits into the timeline, but it has some evidence for an afterlife for ordinary non-magical people in it.

It seems pretty likely, as such, that there is indeed an afterlife of some kind in play in PMAS. (I recommend breaking in and providing mass resurrections to whoever wants them once we have the magical infrastructure to support it.)
 
Redshirt Army said:
Beyond the fact that Madokami clearly has some sort of interaction with this timeline, given her cameo in the first update, there's plenty of evidence for an afterlife in the side mangas like Oriko Magica, which were also set before Madoka made the Madokami wish. Magia Record is a bit screwy given recent revelations on where it fits into the timeline, but it has some evidence for an afterlife for ordinary non-magical people in it.

It seems pretty likely, as such, that there is indeed an afterlife of some kind in play in PMAS. (I recommend breaking in and providing mass resurrections to whoever wants them once we have the magical infrastructure to support it.)
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Alright, that's fair.

Although it amuses and inspires me that your recommendation for learning that Heaven/Hell/Valhalla/Nirvana/whatever exists is to storm the Pearly Gates and drag souls back down to the mortal plane en mass. (Those that want it, anyhow.)

I love this quest.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
Beyond the fact that Madokami clearly has some sort of interaction with this timeline, given her cameo in the first update, there's plenty of evidence for an afterlife in the side mangas like Oriko Magica, which were also set before Madoka made the Madokami wish. Magia Record is a bit screwy given recent revelations on where it fits into the timeline, but it has some evidence for an afterlife for ordinary non-magical people in it.

It seems pretty likely, as such, that there is indeed an afterlife of some kind in play in PMAS. (I recommend breaking in and providing mass resurrections to whoever wants them once we have the magical infrastructure to support it.)
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Speaking of breaking into afterlives, there probably wouldn't be much of a story considering Sabrina would be able to find somebody to return her to her universe via the Travel Grid but... Sabrina in Sorcerously Advanced? Her power wouldn't have the emotional burn-in problem the native magic has and she could cast in Null Zones at full power so she'd be kind of an OCP even without The Gift(The source of the settings high end native magic, The ritual for bestowing it on somebody can take 2 years in the worst case scenario).

That's a setting that actually has the magical infrastructure to storm the Pearly Gates. This is a setting where resurrecting somebody is a day to a weeks work with high end communion magic and a tremendous amount of benevolent mana, The Golden Aegis found out their gods weren't real, and decided to set up shop in an empty heaven and make themselves into Gods/Angels in a giant groupmind.

The Sovereigns of Hell literally took over the Hell they had been fighting with and bound the demons within it into their service.

If for some reason she stayed a while though(Like sayy... as a favor to get a Soulpact task force to follow her back to Mitakihara or something). She'd be a Soulpact member I suspect. Their entire thing is destroying Soul Repositories and helping souls escape bad afterlives(There are multiple heavens and multiple hells in the Sorcerously Advanced setting) through the power of Necromancy, and they have a Necromancy martial art they train their members in.

Their Core Value is(By the way immortality is very easy to get in this setting if you have The Gift):
Core Value: Redemption. No one deserves an eternity of hell. In an immortal life,
everyone can be redeemed. That doesn't mean it's easy, and it doesn't mean you have to
forgive those who aren't seeking redemption, but it means you don't seek permanent
punishments for temporary crimes.
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So very very compatible with Sabrina.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
It seems pretty likely, as such, that there is indeed an afterlife of some kind in play in PMAS. (I recommend breaking in and providing mass resurrections to whoever wants them once we have the magical infrastructure to support it.)
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I suppose our scientific pursuits are already varied and ambitious. No reason not to add a dash of necromancy on an unprecedented scale to the research backlog.
 
So based on my skimming of the past dozen pages...

Next time we have time for fluff, we Summon a Chibi-Brina with cat ears in a maid outfit, dual wielding a squeaky hammer and copy of Dark Souls, and riding on a floating boat.

Got it.
 
Blast said:
So based on my skimming of the past dozen pages...

Next time we have time for fluff, we Summon a Chibi-Brina with cat ears in a maid outfit, dual wielding a squeaky hammer and copy of Dark Souls, and riding on a floating boat.

Got it.
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You forgot the storming of the Gates of Heaven, and the gratuitous crossovers.
 
Blast said:
So based on my skimming of the past dozen pages...

Next time we have time for fluff, we Summon a Chibi-Brina with cat ears in a maid outfit, dual wielding a squeaky hammer and copy of Dark Souls, and riding on a floating boat.

Got it.
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Well, if she's gonna have a boat, should she also have an eyepatch and a parrot?

And maybe she could try to hunt Sayaka, for reasons?
 
Some thoughts I had over the pause:
To be a witch is to have greif and nothing else.
That's why Delodere would be so scary.
They would be able to, by increasing their greif, increase their soul size, to increase their range, to increase their greif intake, to increase their greif, and it just goes on and on in an endless cycle.
Until, they're the only one that feels greif in the entire universe, and then all the timelines spawned from it.
They would feel paradoxically satisfied, despite the fact that they're feeling every bit of greif in reality all at once.
But.
But. But. But.
How do you think reality would react?
How do you think reality would react to a soul that's made up of 100% greif covering everything in existance?
We're okay because our soul isn't just greif, but do you remember?
That time when we infused some rebar with grief, and it glowed.
What do you think would happen if we did that on a bigger scale?
Sure, Delodere could send the excess greif to their barrier, but that still leaves an imprint on reality, leaving aside the fact that they would have to store all the greif in their soul to keep up their size.
It's a good thing that we have to decide to witch out, otherwise this would be more terrifying.
 
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