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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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A thought:

Why did Oriko tell us to avoid asking Rionna about her sister?

The obvious answer, that it has a bad outcome, I think actually has a hole in it: Why would Oriko need to tell us to avoid asking? Rionna's good enough at not talking that we'd never find out she even had a sister. So why did Oriko feel the need to warn us about that outcome?

Well, let's try the next obvious answer: We needed to know that Rionna's sister is important, but she's important in a way that requires us to step carefully around the topic. Oriko can't just say "By the way, her sister is important" because then we'd just ask and it'd be game over. Remember, strategic precog: She wouldn't have been seeing only Rionna's reaction to us asking about her sister, she'd have seen our reaction to Oriko telling us about Rionna's sister.

So, then, I present a new interpretation:

Oriko told us not not ask about Rionna's sister.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Sep 5, 2018 at 9:41 PM, finished with 653 posts and 28 votes.
  • [x] Internally, mentally:
    -[x] Calm down. Channel some of that "excellent actress" Kyuubey accused you of being to avoid showing Rionna your internal strife.
    -[x] Rionna might be refusing to "give up" her sisters shade. You need to work around that.
    -[x] If her sister is a shade, she might be denying the ethical implications of her actions to protect her own psyche.
    [x] Externally, to Rionna.
    -[x] Address her "giving up what I have" line. You don't want to take things away. What you want is to provide her - everyone - with what they need for more humane approaches to flourish.
    --[x] Would she really keep souls trapped if, by her own judgement, it became unnecessary?
    -[x] You want Rionna to stop killing people. There's other ways to stop those that abuse magic. And you'd like to examine her shades, and see if they're suffering.
    -[x] Carefully, to avoid the potential sister trigger, try and get across that if she has shades she's maintaining for personal reasons, or hopes to revive, you'd be happy to help.
    [X] Potential secondary topics, at brinapilots discretion:
    -[X] De-Witching.
    --[X] Let Riona examine Aurora.
    --[X] Explain your experiments so far.
    -[X] Ask after her powers.
    --[X] What does your Soul look like?
    -[X] Wish rejection: describe Oriko's symptoms.
    -[X] Show Rionna the Feather, ask if there's anything unusual about it.
    [x] Plan:
    -[x] She'd be unwilling to give up her sister's shade and you think she might be equally unwilling to reveal that she has it.
    -[x] You'll make a stab in the dark about her power's origin and use it as grounds for giving her a way out.
    -[x] Make an offer that would let her keep her sister's shade without talking about it.
    -[x] Note that, if she is holding her sister's shade, she's likely denying the ethical implications of her actions out of self-defense.
    [x] She won't release her wraiths now, fine. And you won't deny her her home or safety. But would she really keep those souls trapped if it became unnecessary?
    [x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
    [x] But. But. You can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
    [x] If there are any shades that she needs to keep, and she doesn't want to explain who they are or why she needs them... you won't ask questions, and she'll have full access to your research network.
    [x] Does that sound like what she needs?
    [X] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain what she's seeing: the sheer capacity, the quiescent nature of the witch, the way it absorbs hope magic.
    -[x] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
    [x] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
    -[x] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
    --[x] And if there's something else she wants, we can make that possible, too.
    ---[X]No guarantees, obviously, we're powerful not omnipotent, but we can't negotiate when any attempt at finding out what she actually wants is stonewalled with variations of "None of your business/not giving up my power/your soul", the latter of which she has to know isn't going to happen.
    [X] Sabrina-Pilot on key points
    -[X] Acknowledge that asking her to reject the powers of her Wish is a huge thing, and she probably had good reasons for seeking such power. Mention that even if we're unable to deliver fully, we'll still understand if she has a special shade or two she /cant/ release because its too important. That's something we'd obviously be fine with until a better solution appears even if we reject the idea of holding other hostiles and innocents in stasis.
    -[X] If she doesn't want our help, fine, put that aside a moment. Acknowledge lack of detail to our promises. Bring out special Clear Seeds (happy-grief and quiescent ones, at least) , mention tests and ask opinion on results thus far. Is this at least any better than other attempts she's aware of? Can she do that at least that much considering she isn't going to get anything productive out of this trip otherwise?
    [x] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain what she's seeing: the sheer capacity, the quiescent nature of the witch, the way it absorbs hope magic.
    -[x] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
    [x] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
    -[x] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
    --[x] And if there's something else she wants, we can probably make that possible, too.
    [X] gem her
    [X] Sabrina-Pilot on key points
    -[X] Acknowledge that asking her to reject the powers of her Wish is a huge thing, and she probably had good reasons for it. Mention that even if our offered help witht he problem isn't enough, we still understand she might have a special shade or two she /cant/ release because its too important. Thats something we'd obviously be fine with until a better solution appears even if we reject the idea of holding other hostiles and innocents in stasis.
    -[X] If she doesn't want our help, fine, put that aside a moment. Acknowledge lack of detail to our promises. Bring out special Clear Seeds (happy-grief and quiescent ones, at least) , mention tests and ask opinion on results thus far. Is this at least any better than other attempts she's aware of? Can she at least offer that much if she doesn't want anything from us after this long trip?
    [X] Null
    [X] Call Mami for an emergency timestop meeting.
    -[X] On timestop, make sure the whole group (Homura, Mami and Sayaka) is in the meeting
    -[X] Tone: resigned
    --[X] Explain Riona's impressions and the conversation so far. How she had seem unrepentant of holding souls hostages, how the only help she accepts is demananding your soul gem, how she doesn't show regret for Shading even non-magcal girls, everything except things related to witchbomb. And that after everything you've tried Riona still isn't willing to release her Shades under any condition.
    --[X] Ask for suggestions on what to do. You don't want to kill Riona or degem her and put on a freezer: you'd want to have her cooperate but she just isn't interested and if Riona just walks away any other suffering she causes would be partly your fault too.
    [X] Become calm, offering a trade
    -[X] understand Rionna didn't expect to negotiate, get her ready for that.
    [x] Address "I'm not giving up what I have." We didn't come to her to take it.
    -[X] Supply beverage (read the body language.) Without Mami entering herself.
    -[X] Suggest that once she fully acknowledges others, her life gets better.
    --[X] Applies to everyone. Therefore, it concerns us.
    -[X] Things she can't have, like our magic, we will help her solve.
    [X] Practice using her Grief powers, learn from us. Obtain a copy of our powers with her effort.
    -[X] She came for an answer to some problem. The answer is here, it's just unexpected.
    [X] Secondary topics:
    -[X] De-Witching.
    --[X] Let Riona examine Aurora.
    --[X] Explain your experiments so far.
    -[X] Ask after her powers.
    --[X] What does your Soul look like?
    -[X] Wish rejection: describe Oriko's symptoms.
    [X] There is an Iowa Group out there. When is Rionna acting against them? Does she have any coherent policy outside her city?
    [X] We want to share her patrol against Grief Spreaders.
    [X] What is Rionna's bad opinion of us based on, anyway? Who told her we were bad?
    [X] Show Rionna the Feather,
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[X]Onmur

This is looking like the slightly better option at this point, but knowing my voting history the two competing votes are going to undergo so many re-writes that they eventually become what the other vote was prior to all the re-writing, and I'll be a confused Chungus.
 
Redshirt Army said:
That's a pretty precarious action to take on the basis of dumb word games. Maybe we can try it as a Hail Mary if all other social is lost, but we aren't there yet.
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Agreed, a vote like "[] Tell Rionna that you know about her sister" has a really nasty failure case and our predictions are nowhere near good enough to make the expected value positive.

But I think that a more general version of this is what was driving my realization last night about Rionna not wanting to reveal information about her sister. Oriko's precognition says that, for some reason, we need to know that Rionna has a sister and presumably that we need to act on that knowledge, but at the same time, we need to know exactly that her sister exists and nothing more - Oriko would've told us more if it was useful - and whatever action we need to do take does not involve talking to Rionna about it.

The question then becomes - what is the least revealing action we could take based on this knowledge? Do we have any courses of action that are enabled by knowledge of the simple existence of Rionna's sister and that don't involve Rionna learning that we have that knowledge?

The thing that came to me last night is to give her a no-questions-asked escape clause that she could use for her sister. "There aren't many ways to get that power", combined with "I'm going to be forgiving and assume you had good intentions that very first time", is sufficient pretext for that kind of offer.
 
[X] Onmur
We need to step back. As questers, we get bogged down by perpetual social challenges. Aikko, Ono, Oriko. Whenever we have a hard conversation we try to force through it, and devolve into empassioned fire elementals.
 
I'm not sure how trying to filibuster the shortest, least bullshit-tolerant girl we've yet met is being called the safe or less-confrontational option. Like, how do you expect this to go? Do you expect her to just sit there and engage with us? It's going to take her at most five minutes to declare that we're trying to waste her time and demand to be allowed to leave, at which point you'll have done nothing but permanently ended any chance at diplomacy. This isn't a "safe" option at all - in fact, by committing to a long-term plan against someone that acts quickly, it can't be anything but our final attempt. When you commit like that you have no recourse if you fail.

It, um, also wouldn't help the thread cool off, because even if it works it's still only going to be one post. It might even make things worse, since it'll give Rionna more time to say things that make people angry at her.
 
Vebyast said:
I'm not sure how trying to filibuster the shortest, least bullshit-tolerant girl we've yet met is being called the safe or less-confrontational option. Like, how do you expect this to go? Do you expect her to just sit there and engage with us? It's going to take her at most five minutes to declare that we're trying to waste her time and demand to be allowed to leave, at which point you'll have done nothing but permanently ended any chance at diplomacy. This isn't a "safe" option at all - in fact, by committing to a long-term plan against someone that acts quickly, it can't be anything but our final attempt. When you commit like that you have no recourse if you fail.

It, um, also wouldn't help the thread cool off, because even if it works it's still only going to be one post. It might even make things worse, since it'll give Rionna more time to say things that make people angry at her.
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Yeah, instead of filibuster, how about we talk about that very important project that could save thousands from suffering forever as a greif seed/witch, and see if she agrees to help for at least the night she's here?
You know, the one that, if the popular opinion is followed, won't be talked about before the fight to the death. (technically it would be more like a fight with our souls at stake then our lives, considering that if we win we take her soulgem and if she wins she turns us into a phantom but hey, it sounds catchier.)
 
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[x]She said she was interested in dewitching as something adjacent to her current goal. That it's something she wants to make happen.
-[x]For now at least, let's table this argument for the sake of science. If she abandons her code and you somehow lose you don't want her starting over from scratch.
-[x]Let her get a closer look the clear seed. Discuss your current research angle/status.
 
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FromTheFuture said:
Yeah, instead of filibuster, how about we talk about that very important project that could save thousands from suffering forever as a greif seed/witch, and see if she agrees to help for at least the night she's here?
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Already covered, no dice:
Firnagzen said:
"So... well, I know you're trying to work out renewable cleansing with all the Grief controller's shades. You said as much, and... hm. I think you're working on de-Witching in some capacity, or at the very least you've dabbled in it."

"It doesn't concern you," Rionna snaps.
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Rereading that, she's even touchier about her sister than I thought.

[x] Plan:
-[x] She'd be unwilling to give up her sister's shade and you think she might be equally unwilling to reveal that she has it.
-[x] You'll make a stab in the dark about her power's origin and use it as grounds for giving her a way out.
-[x] Make an offer that would let her keep her sister's shade without talking about it.
-[x] Note that, if she is holding her sister's shade, she's likely denying the ethical implications of her actions out of self-defense.

[x] She won't release her wraiths now, fine. And you won't deny her her home or safety. But would she really keep those souls trapped if it became unnecessary?
[x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
[x] But. But. You can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
[x] If there are any shades that she needs to keep, and she doesn't want to explain who they are or why she needs them... you won't ask questions, and she'll have full access to your research network.
[x] Does that sound like what she needs?

Tweaked this a bit so we aren't offering to help directly.
 
[X] Onmur

I'm in favor of a less direct and more open-ended approach. If we can steer this conversation away from the stone wall while still getting what we want on the table, maybe we can get her to talk enough that we'll actually have something actionable.
 
TJSomething said:
I'm in favor of a less direct and more open-ended approach. If we can steer this conversation away from the stone wall while still getting what we want on the table, maybe we can get her to talk enough that we'll actually have something actionable.
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There is no steering! If we try to distract her and run out the clock she'll just force the point. Do you really expect her to just sit there and listen to us talk?

Hell, she just said that she sees us already doing it. You think she doesn't have a countermeasure in mind? Like, remember this conversation:

Sayaka: "Hahahaaha, invisibility!"
Kyouko: "Nice trick."
Sayaka: *smugs*
Kyouko: "Now don't tell me right where you are by talking while you're invisible."
Sayaka: *pwnt*

That's exactly how this is going to go if you try to execute on exactly the plan she just saw through.
 
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[x]Vebyast
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 18, 2018 at 8:46 PM, finished with 164 posts and 19 votes.
  • [X] Remain calm, be patient. You can outlast Riona's stubbornness.
    -[X] Alternate pressing main points with other topics.
    [X] Offer and get refreshments (without leaving the bubble).
    [X] Explain and reaffirm your goals:
    -[X] To help Magical Girls, to break the system.
    -[X] Your intentions when Wishing.
    -[X] People can do horrible things, when forced...
    --[X] Your goal isn't to take away Riona's power, but to give her a chance to do better.
    [X] Points to press:
    -[X] Riona won't achieve her goal by refusing help.
    --[X] If this really matters to her, she'll need to make compromises.
    -[X] Her shades are actual Souls. What she's doing is inhumane.
    --[X] You won't begrudge her keeping voluntarily given Souls.
    --[X] You'd gladly help if she wanted to revive them.
    --[X] If she wants them for protection, there's alternatives.
    -[X] We.
    --[X] Can.
    --[X] Help.
    [X] Other topics:
    -[X] What does your Soul look like?
    -[X] How do her powers work?
    -[X] Wish rejection: describe Oriko's symptoms.
    -[X] De-Witching.
    --[X] Let Riona examine Aurora.
    --[X] Explain your experiments so far.
    [x] Plan:
    -[x] She'd be unwilling to give up her sister's shade and you think she might be equally unwilling to reveal that she has it.
    -[x] You'll make a stab in the dark about her power's origin and use it as grounds for giving her a way out.
    -[x] Make an offer that would let her keep her sister's shade without talking about it.
    -[x] Note that, if she is holding her sister's shade, she's likely denying the ethical implications of her actions out of self-defense.
    [x] She won't release her wraiths now, fine. And you won't deny her her home or safety. But would she really keep those souls trapped if it became unnecessary?
    [x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
    [x] But. But. You can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
    [x] If there are any shades that she needs to keep, and she doesn't want to explain who they are or why she needs them... you won't ask questions, and she'll have full access to your research network.
    [x] Does that sound like what she needs?
    [X] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain what she's seeing: the sheer capacity, the quiescent nature of the witch, the way it absorbs hope magic.
    -[x] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
    [x] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
    -[x] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
    --[x] And if there's something else she wants, we can make that possible, too.
    ---[X]No guarantees, obviously, we're powerful not omnipotent, but we can't negotiate when any attempt at finding out what she actually wants is stonewalled with variations of "None of your business/not giving up my power/your soul", the latter of which she has to know isn't going to happen.
    [x] Okay. Then I guess thats it.
    -[x]One thing, do you know anyone else I can contact with soul related abilities? Since you won't help me and I need input on it with my research team.
    [x] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain what she's seeing: the sheer capacity, the quiescent nature of the witch, the way it absorbs hope magic.
    -[x] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
    [x] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
    -[x] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
    --[x] And if there's something else she wants, we can probably make that possible, too.
    [X] gem her
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I'm with Vebyast on this one. (Obviously, since he has my vote).

Rionna's primary trait in social interactions we've seen is "doesn't like wasting time". So starting our approach by, uh, stalling and fetching refreshments...? And then going through a huge checklist of things, many of which were already brought up...?

It's very much a misstep, in my opinion.
 
THOUGHT

can we just drop the shade matter for a second and get something out of this? Like I'd like to see what she thinks of the internals of a clear seed, especially one with happy magic around it.

Since really I can't provide a kneejerk reaction to this since its diverged so far from how I would of dealt with something like this. We don't know her negotiation position, she barely knows ours. Thats what I need right now - WHY. Not impassioned arguments on our own goals or how we won't immediately gem her or whatever. I want a why.

WHY did she come out here
She's not going to try to just steal our soul - she said as much
but she's about as receptive to negotiation as a spiky wall or a sleeping Gazebo
and yet
and yet
she left her city which it would seem is very secure
to travel around the world
to meet Sabrina
... why?

I also think trying to get her to reduce shades right now will not work, nor will offering protection or support to help her will work. She's like Mami - an independent City owner. She may be open to alliances, and working relationships but she will not give up strength and the ability to operate solo to appease someone.

We can claim were nice and good ALL day but she does not trust us. Nor will she I think for a long while.
 
CornyBones said:
@Firnagzen Does Rionna understand what a clear seed is? Did we effectively communicate what it is? People have been alternating between including clarification and refusing on the basis that she understood.
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Nope, we've vaguely mentioned infinite grief but as far as I know haven't even shown the thing to get her assessment on whether our estimate on capacity is even correct. We certainly haven't bothered to show her the special seeds or anything, that's been repeatedly vetoed by the Lead Votemakers becuase... umm.... they think its speculating to assume it'll matter, and aren't convinced its worth it. Not like the entire past five pages of debate have been on speculation about the sister being a Wraith, or that we've already tried and failed at a dozen other options.

For some reason, We (the royal We of the lead votemaker voices) have just refused to contemplate the option. Instead we keep having twelve step effort-posts that.... result in an update barely longer than the actual vote, either because Rionna cuts us off halfway or because (last update) we don't elaborate on anything because we've insisted on not doing so, and Riona gives us nothing for Brinapilot to respond to.

So how about, if Firn's in the mood/situation for short updates lately anyways, taking a moment to freaking try?

Yeah, she said she isn't primarily focused on De-Witching..... yet. Currently. She wants it and just isn't currently working on it. But damn if it didn't provoke more of a reaction than anything thus far.

So how about, instead of vaguely mentioning cleansing and saying "yeah i want de-witching" (who doesn't? who hasn't "tried" ? she said as much), we actually drop the platitudes and promises and show something for it?

[X] Sabrina-Pilot on key points
-[X] Acknowledge that asking her to reject the powers of her Wish is a huge thing, and she probably had good reasons for it. Mention that even if our offered help witht he problem isn't enough, we still understand she might have a special shade or two she /cant/ release because its too important. Thats something we'd obviously be fine with until a better solution appears even if we reject the idea of holding other hostiles and innocents in stasis.
-[X] If she doesn't want our help, fine, put that aside a moment. Acknowledge lack of detail to our promises. Bring out special Clear Seeds (happy-grief and quiescent ones, at least) , mention tests and ask opinion on results thus far. Is this at least any better than other attempts she's aware of? Can she at least offer that much if she doesn't want anything from us after this long trip?

Basically, spit out the two key thoughts of "Write a freebie coupon for potential Sister-shade, subtly" and "Show actual results and progress on de-witching and cleansing to put money where mouth is". No moralizing, no fluff, no more lectures.

How many votes did we have last time around (even before combining near-identical variations, like I hope happened) saying "Just FUCKING DO IT" , only for de-witching to barely get an afterthought?
 
[X] Sabrina-Pilot on key points
-[X] Acknowledge that asking her to reject the powers of her Wish is a huge thing, and she probably had good reasons for it. Mention that even if our offered help witht he problem isn't enough, we still understand she might have a special shade or two she /cant/ release because its too important. Thats something we'd obviously be fine with until a better solution appears even if we reject the idea of holding other hostiles and innocents in stasis.
-[X] If she doesn't want our help, fine, put that aside a moment. Acknowledge lack of detail to our promises. Bring out special Clear Seeds (happy-grief and quiescent ones, at least) , mention tests and ask opinion on results thus far. Is this at least any better than other attempts she's aware of? Can she at least offer that much if she doesn't want anything from us after this long trip?
 
[X] Sabrina-Pilot on key points
-[X] Acknowledge that asking her to reject the powers of her Wish is a huge thing, and she probably had good reasons for it. Mention that even if our offered help witht he problem isn't enough, we still understand she might have a special shade or two she /cant/ release because its too important. Thats something we'd obviously be fine with until a better solution appears even if we reject the idea of holding other hostiles and innocents in stasis.
-[X] If she doesn't want our help, fine, put that aside a moment. Acknowledge lack of detail to our promises. Bring out special Clear Seeds (happy-grief and quiescent ones, at least) , mention tests and ask opinion on results thus far. Is this at least any better than other attempts she's aware of? Can she at least offer that much if she doesn't want anything from us after this long trip?

Edit: @Charon, @SaltyWaffles This vote is extremely similiar to yours, any interest in switching for the sake of consolidation?
Adhoc vote count started by Conjured Blade on Aug 18, 2018 at 10:06 PM, finished with 169 posts and 21 votes.
  • [X] Remain calm, be patient. You can outlast Riona's stubbornness.
    -[X] Alternate pressing main points with other topics.
    [X] Offer and get refreshments (without leaving the bubble).
    [X] Explain and reaffirm your goals:
    -[X] To help Magical Girls, to break the system.
    -[X] Your intentions when Wishing.
    -[X] People can do horrible things, when forced...
    --[X] Your goal isn't to take away Riona's power, but to give her a chance to do better.
    [X] Points to press:
    -[X] Riona won't achieve her goal by refusing help.
    --[X] If this really matters to her, she'll need to make compromises.
    -[X] Her shades are actual Souls. What she's doing is inhumane.
    --[X] You won't begrudge her keeping voluntarily given Souls.
    --[X] You'd gladly help if she wanted to revive them.
    --[X] If she wants them for protection, there's alternatives.
    -[X] We.
    --[X] Can.
    --[X] Help.
    [X] Other topics:
    -[X] What does your Soul look like?
    -[X] How do her powers work?
    -[X] Wish rejection: describe Oriko's symptoms.
    -[X] De-Witching.
    --[X] Let Riona examine Aurora.
    --[X] Explain your experiments so far.
    [x] Vebyast
    [X] Sabrina-Pilot on key points
    -[X] Acknowledge that asking her to reject the powers of her Wish is a huge thing, and she probably had good reasons for it. Mention that even if our offered help witht he problem isn't enough, we still understand she might have a special shade or two she /cant/ release because its too important. Thats something we'd obviously be fine with until a better solution appears even if we reject the idea of holding other hostiles and innocents in stasis.
    -[X] If she doesn't want our help, fine, put that aside a moment. Acknowledge lack of detail to our promises. Bring out special Clear Seeds (happy-grief and quiescent ones, at least) , mention tests and ask opinion on results thus far. Is this at least any better than other attempts she's aware of? Can she at least offer that much if she doesn't want anything from us after this long trip?
    [X] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain what she's seeing: the sheer capacity, the quiescent nature of the witch, the way it absorbs hope magic.
    -[x] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
    [x] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
    -[x] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
    --[x] And if there's something else she wants, we can make that possible, too.
    ---[X]No guarantees, obviously, we're powerful not omnipotent, but we can't negotiate when any attempt at finding out what she actually wants is stonewalled with variations of "None of your business/not giving up my power/your soul", the latter of which she has to know isn't going to happen.
    [x] Okay. Then I guess thats it.
    -[x]One thing, do you know anyone else I can contact with soul related abilities? Since you won't help me and I need input on it with my research team.
    [x] Show her the Clear Seed. Explain what she's seeing: the sheer capacity, the quiescent nature of the witch, the way it absorbs hope magic.
    -[x] And this is just a stopgap measure to keep everyone's gem clean while we create a real solution.
    [x] If she wants cleansing and dewitching, then the only way that it's going to be possible is by working with us.
    -[x] As she's said, everybody's tried but nobody's been able to... until now.
    --[x] And if there's something else she wants, we can probably make that possible, too.
    [X] gem her
    [x] Plan:
    -[x] She'd be unwilling to give up her sister's shade and you think she might be equally unwilling to reveal that she has it.
    -[x] You'll make a stab in the dark about her power's origin and use it as grounds for giving her a way out.
    -[x] Make an offer that would let her keep her sister's shade without talking about it.
    -[x] Note that, if she is holding her sister's shade, she's likely denying the ethical implications of her actions out of self-defense.
    [x] She won't release her wraiths now, fine. And you won't deny her her home or safety. But would she really keep those souls trapped if it became unnecessary?
    [x] You want Rionna to stop murdering people, and if any of her shades are suffering you want that stopped.
    [x] But. But. You can't think of many ways a girl gets a power like Rionna's.
    [x] If there are any shades that she needs to keep, and she doesn't want to explain who they are or why she needs them... you won't ask questions, and she'll have full access to your research network.
    [x] Does that sound like what she needs?
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Racoras said:
Nope, we've vaguely mentioned infinite grief but as far as I know haven't even shown the thing to get her assessment on whether our estimate on capacity is even correct. We certainly haven't bothered to show her the special seeds or anything, that's been repeatedly vetoed by the Lead Votemakers becuase... umm.... they think its speculating to assume it'll matter, and aren't convinced its worth it. Not like the entire past five pages of debate have been on speculation about the sister being a Wraith, or that we've already tried and failed at a dozen other options.

For some reason, We (the royal We of the lead votemaker voices) have just refused to contemplate the option. Instead we keep having twelve step effort-posts that.... result in an update barely longer than the actual vote, either because Rionna cuts us off halfway or because (last update) we don't elaborate on anything because we've insisted on not doing so, and Riona gives us nothing for Brinapilot to respond to.

So how about, if Firn's in the mood/situation for short updates lately anyways, taking a moment to freaking try?

Yeah, she said she isn't primarily focused on De-Witching..... yet. Currently. She wants it and just isn't currently working on it. But damn if it didn't provoke more of a reaction than anything thus far.

So how about, instead of vaguely mentioning cleansing and saying "yeah i want de-witching" (who doesn't? who hasn't "tried" ? she said as much), we actually drop the platitudes and promises and show something for it?
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Before I vote for this, I need you to clarify some things and maybe make somethings better if you want to.

[] Sabrina-Pilot on key points
-[] Acknowledge that asking her to reject the powers of her Wish is a huge thing, and she probably had good reasons for it. Mention that even if our offered help -with her- problem isn't enough, we still understand she might have a special shade or two she /cant/ release because its too important. Thats something we'd obviously be fine with until a better solution appears even if we reject the idea of holding other hostiles and innocents in stasis. This isn't very clear to me, what does it mean? Which problem? What do you mean if our help wasn't enough, do you mean the opposite?
-[] If she doesn't want our help, fine, put that aside a moment. Acknowledge lack of detail to our promises. Bring out special Clear Seeds (happy-grief and quiescent ones, at least) , mention tests and ask opinion on results thus far. Is this at least any better than other attempts she's aware of? Can she do that at least that much considering she isn't going to get anything productive out of this trip otherwise?
The last part sounds like a reason for her to not do it, considering she didn't come here to give us something, so I rephrased it.
 
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