To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

PauliExklusor said:

[][COUNCIL] Briefvoice 2324 Snakepit Plan

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You know BV just disavowed his own plan?

So. After consideration, where I want-
The Two R(e)nnies
UP2
Academy
EC Academy
Two Starbases
in some not-exactly-that order, some things have to give, and this year it looks like Academy expansion might be the one. Not terribly happy about it, because crew income compounds, but I/Lt Galan has 2328 Ambassador refits that don't expand Crew, 2325 Excelsior refits that shaves crew to O4E5T4 with a minor stat increase, and a possible 2328 C5S5H3L5P4D9 O1E2T2 crew 70SR 'Corsair' Future New Medium Frigate Centaur-replacement design on the books (That's probably the exact future 2330s Comet-A refit statline, for less crew).

[][COUNCIL] Plan UP2 Compromise Version

[][STARKIN] Aerocommando Research Corps (Personal Tech, Skill 4)
[][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)

[][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)

Briefvoice said:

Well the plan would be to complete the Excelsior refits before the Ambassador refit is ready, taking a few years break from Ambassador construction and using the big berths primarily for Excelsior refits so that we're not wasting resources building Ambassadors that would have to be refitted as soon as they launched. 2mt berths from UP2 would be much more useful for the heavy cruiser plans we tentatively have penciled in around 2332. To be prepped for that, I think we'd want.... let's see.

2 years to get heavy industrial park built.
2-3 years of UP2 expansion beyond its initial berths. (but that can overlap with industrial park)
4 years to build it (based on UP 1)
1 year of prep.

So if we want to have UP2 in full swing by 2332, I'd say minimum order by.... 2324.

.....


Crap. That's not great for my plan, is it? Maybe we better get UP2 started this year.

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What?!

Briefvoice said:

Well.... all right then. Based on my own logic, I must withdraw my plan and vote for one that includes UP2. However, I am not in favor of SWB's because I do want that Risan starbase. Therefore:

[X][COUNCIL] Plan UP2 Compromise Version

[X][STARKIN] Aerocommando Research Corps (Personal Tech, Skill 4)
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)

[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)

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Huh! Okay I wasn't expecting that.

lets have an emergency Tally.

[X][COUNCIL] Plan UP2 Compromise Version

Given the choice is basically between the regular academy expansion and the explorer corps annex + Risa starbase, I'm inclined toward the latter. Not because I'm particularly attached to the Risa starbase (though I do think it's a good idea), but given the limited time availability of the EC expansion and the utility of nudging our EC crew income up to (and possibly just over) an Ambassador-A per year, I'm inclined toward the plan that includes it.

[X][STARKIN] Aerocommando Research Corps (Personal Tech, Skill 4)
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)

[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)

I'm not sure if anyone noticed this (and I apologize if someone has mentioned it) but since I think we lost our +1 to weapons research bonus by replacing T'Lorel with Chen to reorganize Shipyard Ops, I think this level increase for UP Tactical is actually conveniently saving us from unexpectedly needing a boost there to finish Phaser Arrays on schedule.

Briefvoice said:

Well.... all right then. Based on my own logic, I must withdraw my plan and vote for one that includes UP2. However, I am not in favor of SWB's because I do want that Risan starbase. Therefore:

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Previous plan: Sleep on it, then if my plan seemed to likely to lag behind, switch back to SWB's plan.

New plan: Briefvoice, since you've done far more snakepit plans than I have, any changes you'd recommend? Asside from that Office 0 stuff you helped me with earlier, of course.

Derpmind said:

In response:

[X][COUNCIL] Plan UP2 Compromise Version

• Request Mining Colony Falling Down, 6pp, 20 (35) br/year, 4 turns (7 before Chen 25% discount)
• Request Mining Colony Aeneid III, 7pp, 15 (35) sr/year, 4 turns
• Request Mining Colony 77 Azzadi IV-3, 7pp, 20 (40) sr/year, 4 turns
• Request Mining Colony 17 Onidesin IV, 7pp, 20 (40) sr/year, 4 turns
• Request Mining Colony 23 Levar VIII, 7pp, 15 (35) sr/year, 4 turns
• Request Research Colony Morgana-1321, 6pp, 5 (9) rp/year, 4 turns
• Request Research Colony Barradus IV, 6pp, 6 (10) rp/year, 4 turns
• Request Research Colony Galoria Delta-LXIg, 6pp, 5 (9) rp/year, 4 turns
• Request new Starbase I [Seyek Border Zone - Hacitorus] 15pp (20 before Chen 25% discount)
• Request new Starbase I [Ferasa Sector - Risa] 32pp
• Request Explorer Corps Annex Development, 25pp (Gain +0.15 EC O/E/T throughput)
• Request Start of Renaissance-A Vanguard refit, 5 turns, 25 pp
• Request Start of Renaissance Envoy Variant development, 5 turns, 25 pp
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Dreamers]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Licori]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Felis]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Outer Space Alliance]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Bolians]
• Sponsor efforts for a Major Shipyard Preparations to pave the way for a Utopia Planitia style shipyard, 4 turns, 110pp

There! Total cost is 384pp spent out of our 384pp. Purchases a bunch of colonies, Risa Starbase, and the Explorer Corps Annex while still also fitting in the Major Shipyard Preparations for a UP2. (TBH, the choice was either a bunch of colonies to fill out the full cost or a low-importance purchase and no colonies at all.) Now watch as everyone ignores this plan like all the other ones to vote for either Briefvoice's plan or SWB's. *shrug*

[X][STARKIN] Aerocommando Research Corps (Personal Tech, Skill 4)
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)
[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)

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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:

[X][COUNCIL] Plan Rennie-Envoy, UP2, Coreward Diplo, Research Colonies

• Request Mining Colony Falling Down, 6pp, 20 (35) br/year, 4 turns (7 before Chen 25% discount)
• Request Mining Colony 77 Azzadi IV-3, 7pp, 20 (40) sr/year, 4 turns
• Request Mining Colony 17 Onidesin IV, 7pp, 20 (40) sr/year, 4 turns
• Request Mining Colony 23 Levar VIII, 7pp, 15 (35) sr/year, 4 turns
• Request Research Colony HKP-426, 6pp, 7 (11) rp/year, 4 turns (potentially Chen discount)
• Request Research Colony Morgana-1321, 6pp, 5 (9) rp/year, 4 turns
• Request Research Colony Barradus IV, 6pp, 6 (10) rp/year, 4 turns
• Request Research Colony Galoria Delta-LXIg, 6pp, 5 (9) rp/year, 4 turns
• Request new Starbase I [Seyek Border Zone - Hacitorus] 15pp (20 before Chen 25% discount)
• Request Academy Development, 50pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
• Request Start of Renaissance-A Vanguard refit, 5 turns, 25 pp
• Request Start of Renaissance Envoy Variant development, 5 turns, 25 pp
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Dreamers]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Licori]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Felis]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Outer Space Alliance]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Bolians]
• Sponsor efforts for a Major Shipyard Preparations to pave the way for a Utopia Planitia style shipyard, 4 turns, 110pp
• 379pp total, 378 if Chen applies to HKP-426

Colonies picked for RP first (as we are finally on the low end and it looks like the RP sinks will continue until morale improves), then income. No thought to location, HKP is crucial though.

Starbase is a crucial defensive location, the STO did not build there, and we need it to complete our ambition.

Bolian push up for debate, I could see the Ittick-Ka, Gorn, Bajorans, or any number of people in that 5th slot.


[X][STARKIN] Aerocommando Research Corps (Personal Tech, Skill 4)
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)

[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)

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Here is what the current snakepit choices are. the others only have 1 or 2 votes each and thus don't even count anymore.

kimagurena said:

I'm not sure if anyone noticed this (and I apologize if someone has mentioned it) but since I think we lost our +1 to weapons research bonus by replacing T'Lorel with Chen to reorganize Shipyard Ops, I think this level increase for UP Tactical is actually conveniently saving us from unexpectedly needing a boost there to finish Phaser Arrays on schedule.

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Very well spotted! If we no longer have the +1 to weapons research, then without this new skill boost, we'd be exactly one point short of completing Phaser Arrays in 2325. I did not notice that. Of course, I really should go over my preliminary research tracker again to make sure I didn't make any mistakes. I've just been kinda putting it off for a while... but where there's one mistake/oversight, there might be more. I'll try to make sure that I've got all the research bonuses for this year's research turn correct.

[X][COUNCIL] Plan UP2 Compromise Version

[X][STARKIN] Aerocommando Research Corps (Personal Tech, Skill 4)
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)

[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)

[X][COUNCIL] Plan Rennie-Envoy, UP2, Coreward Diplo, Research Colonies
[X][STARKIN] Aerocommando Research Corps (Personal Tech, Skill 4)
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)
[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)

[X][COUNCIL] Plan UP2 Compromise Version
[X][STARKIN] Aerocommando Research Corps (Personal Tech, Skill 4)
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)
[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)

Ugh

Look:
1. We need the regular fleet academy expansion, these pay down the line considerably while the EC annex is iffy with most of our new EC builds falling before it starts to pay off.
2. We do not need to flush 70pp down the drain for yet another aux yard. We are not about to fall behind on aux builds, it is not a priority. We may still be playing catchup but we are catching up. Member yards have plenty of slack, so scheduling totally free aux builds in them isn't something we should be worried about either. That's just making use of efficiencies, it's not a bad thing! I can't stand pretending that just because we are making use of completely free resources for builds that we somehow lack the capacity, because it's just making use of efficiencies, which is why we have an experienced logi admiral in the first place.
3. We said we'd put off UP2 last year so can we not put it off more please? While I did say we don't need UP2 for berth quantity (calculations though say we could use it eventually), we absolutely DO need it for security reasons. We don't even know how long this process will take, it could easily be a decade and a half.
4. HKP isn't the security risk claimed. For decades we had much more far-flung research colonies, and we already patrol this space, and we already operate task forces in this space, and we need to extend our influence into this space. It is in my opinion a security necessity that involves taking a very small short-term risk for significant long-term gain. We are not in the business of short term thinking, not in Snakepit, please. If we don't get this this year we need it next year 100%.

In short, don't much like Briefvoice's plan, and Derpmind's is okay but still has waste in it. Risan starbase is okay I guess. Actually...

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:

[X][COUNCIL] Plan Rennie-Envoy, UP2, Coreward Diplo, Research Colonies

• Request Mining Colony Falling Down, 6pp, 20 (35) br/year, 4 turns (7 before Chen 25% discount)
• Request Mining Colony 17 Onidesin IV, 7pp, 20 (40) sr/year, 4 turns
• Request Research Colony Barradus IV, 6pp, 6 (10) rp/year, 4 turns
• Request Research Colony Galoria Delta-LXIg, 6pp, 5 (9) rp/year, 4 turns
• Request new Starbase I [Seyek Border Zone - Hacitorus] 15pp (20 before Chen 25% discount)
• Request new Starbase I [Risa] 32pp
• Request Academy Development, 50pp (Gain +.5 Officers/Enlisted/Techs throughput)
• Request Start of Renaissance-A Vanguard refit, 5 turns, 25 pp
• Request Start of Renaissance Envoy Variant development, 5 turns, 25 pp
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Dreamers]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Licori]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Felis]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Outer Space Alliance]
• Request focused Diplomacy on a potential member species, 20pp (One affiliate or prospective race will undergo accelerate diplomacy) [Bolians]
• Sponsor efforts for a Major Shipyard Preparations to pave the way for a Utopia Planitia style shipyard, 4 turns, 110pp
• 382pp total

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Plan edited? Main diff is now Academy (this plan) vs EC Annex + more colonies (Derpmind's)

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:

Plan edited? Main diff is now Academy (this plan) vs EC Annex (Derpmind's)

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4 less colonies in exchange for switching from the EC Annex to the more general Academy Development. The two plans are really close now. I'm not sure what the ratio of normal crew to EC crew recruitment is, but depending on that a normal Academy Expansion might still increase EC recruitment by close to 0.15 per year. I don't know if the EC Annex option is simply cheaper or if it's more/less crew efficient.

Yeah, Risia Starbase is way more expensive than the discounted borderzone starbase. But we might as well have it.

Darnit. I weigh the regular Academy expansion slightly ahead of the EC Annex, tho the latter is time-limited.
In the near-future we'll quite possibly have more EC ships available (maybe 16-17 by 2330, when the Amby-A refits start) than we can run Five Year Missions (from a QM EC Log-writing-load perspective). So, changing.

[X][COUNCIL] Plan Rennie-Envoy, UP2, Coreward Diplo, Research Colonies

[X][STARKIN] Aerocommando Research Corps (Personal Tech, Skill 4)
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)

[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)

[X][COUNCIL] Plan Rennie-Envoy, UP2, Coreward Diplo, Research Colonies

[X][STARKIN] Aerocommando Research Corps (Personal Tech, Skill 4)
[X][STARKIN] Laudon Orbital Construction (Ship Design - Frigate/Starship Construction, Skill 2)

[X][KED] Utopia Planitia Tactical Design Bureau (Weapons/Ship Design - Capital, Skill 3)

Switching, since both major plans now call for a UP2, and I'm in favor of more regular crew, as opposed to EC (even if it means losing colonies), for reasons I feel @Alliterate has outlined well.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:

4. HKP isn't the security risk claimed. For decades we had much more far-flung research colonies, and we already patrol this space, and we already operate task forces in this space, and we need to extend our influence into this space. It is in my opinion a security necessity that involves taking a very small short-term risk for significant long-term gain. We are not in the business of short term thinking, not in Snakepit, please. If we don't get this this year we need it next year 100%.

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HKP is right next to the Lecarre and Imelak. There's far-flung and then there's "this colony is probably going to be run by enemy infiltrators and in the event of a general war is useful for nothing but being held hostage."

Glassware said:

HKP is right next to the Lecarre and Imelak. There's far-flung and then there's "this colony is probably going to be run by enemy infiltrators and in the event of a general war is useful for nothing but being held hostage."

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Perhaps, perhaps not. But, it's no longer purchased in Swbs plan for this year.

we are crew limited, not br or sr limited, on our ship building. therefore, more crew is more valuable than more resources.

and regular crew is more valuable than more EC crew.

Glassware said:

HKP is right next to the Lecarre and Imelak. There's far-flung and then there's "this colony is probably going to be run by enemy infiltrators and in the event of a general war is useful for nothing but being held hostage."

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No it won't be.

Right now we're operating task forces in that space, both for the Hishmeri and the Ittick-Ka. Ruby-Eyes Folly Patrol Zone is right there and rather large force we have parked there have nothing to do. Falling Down is right next to the Lecarre, LITERALLY RIGHT NEXT TO THEM, and we aren't making a fuss about it. Well? If you think HKP is a problem then Falling Down is a much bigger one.

The logic is bullshit objectionism.

Bonvivant said:

I suspect that seeing the fate of their neighbors there will be Allupi witchhunts goin on for infiltrators and finding them irrespective of their presence or absence.

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The Allupii are actually very very far from the Chrystovians and may never have heard of them. The Chrystovians are over on the side of Cardassian space nearest the rim of the galaxy, while the Allupii are on the side near the core.

AKuz said:

Reminder that John "Turned an entire planet into LITERALLY NAZIS" Gil was a highly respected Federation scientist.

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Leslie:

"He was. Then he had a psychotic breakdown and disappeared for ten years where nobody knew what he was doing. Which is probably what happens with the Chrystovians, except for some damn reason their reaction to finding out one of their own has gone off the plot like that is to publish their papers, not to send a ship to pick them up. As the driver of Herr Gruppenfuhrer Kirk's staff car back on Ekos when we cleaned that up, I don't approve."

pheonix89 said:

Are we seriously calling that episode canon here?

Because nobody's doing that without mass mind control ... oh wait Gil wasn't in control so he doesn't have that either. Episode is not internally consistent, must be dismissed or SEVERELY rewritten.

I'd also like to remind you that IIRC nobody knew Gil was even ALIVE till the Enterprise stopped him.

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Leslie:

"John Gill made contact with local race-purity movements, encouraged them to organize along certain lines, and spread technology to make it easier. He had blueprints, plans, the whole nine yards. As to the use of literal Nazi symbols and aesthetic, yeah that part was exaggerated. We didn't bother to take a lot of records when we were doing mopup and no one's allowed to go to Ekos EXCEPT the team of socio-therapists from the FDS, so you can't really get authentic uniforms and kit from the Race Embodiment era these days. They usually just dress the actors up in Nazi stuff because it gets the idea across."

"But yeah, there were cosmetic differences. Like, the uniforms used native Ekosian insignia and design principles, which from what I've heard was good for me, because they were a hell of a lot more comfortable than SS uniforms sound. Especially the footwear."

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:

No it won't be.

Right now we're operating task forces in that space, both for the Hishmeri and the Ittick-Ka. Ruby-Eyes Folly Patrol Zone is right there and rather large force we have parked there have nothing to do. Falling Down is right next to the Lecarre, LITERALLY RIGHT NEXT TO THEM, and we aren't making a fuss about it. Well? If you think HKP is a problem then Falling Down is a much bigger one.

The logic is bullshit objectionism.

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Falling Down can be supplied from our space-the HKP colony would need to be supplied through our allies the Ashidi, and even then need to go through unclaimed territory. We'd need to undertake serious logistical preparations if we wanted to hold it in the event of a war, and it provides a massive target for the black ops and sabotage the Imelak and the Lecarre so love where Falling Down is only so exposed to the Lecarre and we can comfortably park a starbase there to watch for sneaky business. Like, if you want to long-term build support for war with the Pact at the cost of the livelihood and potentially lives of the people on that colony, maybe...

Hm. Actually, that's not a bad idea, if horrible. We do need to boost our willingness to fight the Cardassians, it's our greatest weakness in war with them. Creating a vulnerable population of Federation citizens they can prey upon that we could only reasonably defend by eradicating multiple Pact member fleets could certainly do that. And when we unlock Deep Space Stations we might be able to park one there to menace the Imelak and Lecarre's shipping...

[X][COUNCIL] Plan Rennie-Envoy, UP2, Coreward Diplo, Research Colonies

Switching here because I prefer the main academy expansion-it's not as glamorous but we always need more.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:

No it won't be.

Right now we're operating task forces in that space, both for the Hishmeri and the Ittick-Ka. Ruby-Eyes Folly Patrol Zone is right there and rather large force we have parked there have nothing to do. Falling Down is right next to the Lecarre, LITERALLY RIGHT NEXT TO THEM, and we aren't making a fuss about it. Well? If you think HKP is a problem then Falling Down is a much bigger one.

The logic is bullshit objectionism.

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Not sure why you're getting crabbier the closer to getting everything you want. If a lot of players are uncomfortable with HKP, can't you just let it go?

Falling Down is:
1. Not as close to the Lecarre as it seems, since the Lecarre are off the galactic plane.
2. Actually within Federation patrolled space and only a hop-skip-and-jump from Celesipos.

HKP-426 is over near the Imelek and very far from Federation space. As for the the Ruby Eyes' Patrol Zone force, now that the Trill are affiliates they can pick up events generated by Trill worlds.

Briefvoice said:

HKP-426 is over near the Imelek and very far from Federation space. As for the the Ruby Eyes' Patrol Zone force, now that the Trill are affiliates they can pick up events generated by Trill worlds.

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Should be noted that it's only about 10 LY from Ashidi space, and 20 from our nearest starbase at Hacitorus (well, when that's finished, at least). Problematic, but likely not insurmountable, and when we develop Deep Space Stations a potent location from which to monitor the Lecarre and maintain contact with the Ittick-ka.

Iron Wolf said:

In this house we stan Hayley Singh

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Quite a few prominent political power brokers have held a lot of influence for 25 years or more, and often if they didn't it was because of old age.

chriswriter90 said:

We have TARDIS space-compression technology.

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Leslie:

"DO NOT GET ME STARTED ABOUT THE GUY IN THE SCARF. Aprilia III was weird. And having a bunch of robot men running around trying to assimilate everybody was just disturbing. Glad that didn't catch on."

Briefvoice said:

Not sure why you're getting crabbier the closer to getting everything you want. If a lot of players are uncomfortable with HKP, can't you just let it go?

Falling Down is:
1. Not as close to the Lecarre as it seems, since the Lecarre are off the galactic plane.
2. Actually within Federation patrolled space and only a hop-skip-and-jump from Celesipos.

HKP-426 is over near the Imelek and very far from Federation space. As for the the Ruby Eyes' Patrol Zone force, now that the Trill are affiliates they can pick up events generated by Trill worlds.

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While we do help out affiliates and I'm sure they do generate us events, we've never accounted for patrolling their space before. We often don't even know where all their worlds even are. On the other hand we have more responsibility to patrol allied space, including to scout outwards from their borders to understand where threats come from and stave them off before they're near. Extending patrols to the area near HKP-426 is quickly becoming our responsibility. You may not like that we have to push out that far, but it is in actual fact going to help us, not hinder us, as we attempt to integrate the military defense of the Ashidi, which we are responsible for, into the framework of the defending the Federation as a whole. In every single case we have explored, including the Honiani/Horizon border, the Amarki/Cardassian border, the Apiata/Cardassian border, the Sydraxian/Human border, pushing the borders has meant pushing threats back farther from the more important things behind them. Even REF is an example of this.

If you're going to simultaneously argue that we're responsible for and patrol affiliate Trill space yet imply we aren't responsible for and don't patrol allied Ashidi space then... ????

Falling Down is about the same distance in 3d space from Gervanis, the Lecarre homeworld, as it is from Celisipos outpost.

We all recognise that there isn't a plan in the running that purchases a base at HKP-426 this year? Not even Swbs?

The argument can be tabled until next Snakepit, when the strategic situation will no doubt have evolved again.

HKP-426 is really needed for expansion considering current events, sure there are risks to claiming it but we're dragging our feet with expanding for too long down there unlike Imelek and Cardassian exploration and expansion of the area.
All this time to us its still unknown territory perhaps the Imelek and Cardassian already encircle us with their claims as they travel towards Gorn.