- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Yes, those unforgivable bastards. How dare they take anti-piracy operations into their own hands?
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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- Sci-Fi
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Nervos Belli
Don't think this means you've won!
- Location
- Murica
The worst you can say about the Laio is that they jumped hastily into a war they thought was necessary which turned out to not be the case. There are more than a few similarities to the Caitian-Dawiar war in those respects. And we didn't block or hold up Caitian ratification for their actions.
The anti-piracy actions that killed a lot of non-pirates and didn't solve anything, mind you.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
The smug comparisons to the Orion Syndicate campaign probably don't help either, with the key role that President Okaar played, the care taken towards preventing collateral damage, the fact that we actually got permission from the local government before going in...
Like, in the sense that this was an "anti-pirate operation," it was the kind that the Klingons might conduct where they kill ten innocents for every pirate. That's not Federation member behavior.
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pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Who, precisely, did they kill who was not using force of arms to protect pirates?
.... Oh right no one.
Edit: Calling sailors under arms KIA contesting genuine anti-piracy operations innocents may be TECHNICALLY true but it's also deeply disingenuous, as those are entirely justified targets.
.... Oh right no one.
Edit: Calling sailors under arms KIA contesting genuine anti-piracy operations innocents may be TECHNICALLY true but it's also deeply disingenuous, as those are entirely justified targets.
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- Location
- alphen aan den rijn
just asking out of interest is there a reason we are doing the ships now V sometime later and maybe give risa a StarBase or something?
i think that might help in the south!
i think that might help in the south!
- Location
- Illinois
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I don't disagree with you in that I think the war was at least somewhat justified, but I'm not seeing the Federation Council admitting a member that literally just finished a war against an affiliate, especially not when the Federation did in fact attempt to stop the war before it started. I think the Laio might be admitted as soon as 2325.Q1, but this year seems unlikely to me.
We're able to research the refits now, and the faster we get that done, the faster we have the actual hulls. As of right now, it'll take us at least two years to get Rennie-A and Renvoy hulls into service, and it's better to avoid any additional delays, because we, unlike say, the HoH, have very few P-specialists.
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
People want a dedicated diploship ASAP so we can throw them at the HoH.
You mean the same government that immediately arrested and corps as soon as the Federation provided them with ample evidence? Which was handled in something like two quarters? The ongoing OSA grievance is that the Licori killed 750 people, where if they had just waited zero people on both sides would have died, AND the OSA would have that missing Wolfpack in hand.
This is bypassing the fact that the Licori thought legitimate anti-pirate activity involved an attempt to invade a major world.
I mean I get the Licori had some level of "justification" but they did nothing to actually further their stated objectives. Indeed, it was largely counterproductive.
E: The OSA, for example, isn't really upset in retrospect about the attack on Gumco ships right at the start of the war. If the Licori left it there, they might be relatively chill about things.
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Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
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- Behind You
Almost as if their "justification" was merely an excuse for something else.
While the Licori were their co-belligerants, all the Laio did during the war was screen merchant ships from attack.
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Funny, I thought we were talking about delaying LAIO membership because they engaged in the normal response to piracy.
And if anyone tells the Laio they should have just waited while the UFP was doing next to jack till war was on the table the Laio should laugh in that person's face. And probably demand an apology from the next person up the totem pole.
And what is this other justification for the Laio involvement? Because nobody's come up with one yet.Almost as if their "justification" was merely an excuse for something else.
It's amazing the sheer amount of apologia for pirates and protectors of pirates going here. The Laio are NOT the bad guys here and the people who think they are really need to drop this Absolute Pacifism bullshit about responding to piracy with force being bad.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
It didn't solve anything on its own because we volunteered to end the situation ourselves. Which we did by pouring a huge number of ships into the region in hopes of averting or containing the war, ending the status quo. In theory, the Laio coulda/shoulda/woulda asked us to do more or less exactly that without threatening war or starting war themselves, but for some reason that didn't happen over the years the problem was building up. We got involved when it became a problem likely to lead to war.
As far as I can determine, the Laio apparently didn't have a "politely ask the Federation to help without threatening to take matters into their own hands in the absence of help" button to push. It wasn't until they (and other powers in the region) started mobilizing for war that we stepped in.
Either the Laio lacked enough political leverage with the Council to give us a "resolve piracy against the Laio" button that would enable us to proactively set up a task force dealing with it in, say, 2321...
Or they were forced to hold the Idiot Ball for reasons of plot so that we could get a nice exciting/annoying war on our borders, which I'm reluctant to hold against them in-character.
...
Basically, the arguments against the war as it was actually prosecuted boil down to "you should have kicked back and let the Federation handle everything," but the Federation didn't start handling everything until the situation had already progressed to the brink of war, with the parties involved either throwing down ultimatums or blithely ignoring ultimatums out of sheer institutional refusal to believe their own side could be at fault.
Meanwhile, the Licori involvement in this war has to be viewed through the lens of the Licori NOT being Federation affiliates, NOT having any security guarantees from the Federation, and not having any reason to expect the Federation to rule in the Licori's favor if it would in any way harm or inconvenience a Federation affiliate. They're pursuing an independent foreign policy that isn't subordinated to us, and in a situation where they can't afford to assume we have their best interests at heart, because they've already pissed us off and we don't like their social system.
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- They/Them
They provided the Licori with diplomatic cover to wave their dicks around and kill 750 people so Emperor Lugis could eke out another couple years ahead of the revolution, essentially, because if the Laio hadn't been involved we'd probably have blown Halkh out of the sky as he crossed the OSA border.
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
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- Behind You
Remember the Laio obsession with "firsts"? Yeah.
They got played by the Licori, plain and simple. Remove the Licori from the picture and you'd find that the Laoi would be alot less willing to go to war.
Because obviously pointing out that we actually would've gotten the pirates without any deaths if they hadn't declared war as opposed to having the pirate wolfpack be who knows where after the Licori killed a significant amount of people is "apologia for pirates".
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
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- North American Plaguelands
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- She/Her
That's your justification for saying they should just lie back and do nothing about piracy against their citizens?
Really?
Remembering that we weren't given the OPTION to do anything until war noises started?
Oh, BTW, if we'd done that ... we'd have absolutely been villain protagonists for the arc and "Starfleet kills thousands to protect pirates" would be correct even if the QMs claimed otherwise.
Glassware confirmed megacorp pirate apologist.
Oooh look at the revisionist history. We did not intervene, nor were we given the OPTION to intervene, nor did we CONSIDER intervening, until war noises were starting.
This whole "If they'd just laid back and thought of England" argument is blatantly counterfactual.
And somehow I doubt they'd have much less interested in STOPPING FUCKING PIRACY!
- Pronouns
- They/Them
So what you're saying is, we should invade the Yrillians and blow up their shipyards? Because that's essentially your argument, as far as I can tell-endorsing stupid and counterproductive ways of fighting piracy that get hundreds of people killed for no real benefit.
The Laio are our allies. They had the option of calling us in. They chose, instead, to escalate rapidly to war because of internal political factors and Licori manipulations.
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No, the OSA argument against the war is "You should have let us investigate and prosecute, with Federation help because we were realizing how bad the problem must be (or how flagrant the Licori lies are) if our first investigation failed." Which the Licori didn't give them any time to do. Or even help. Like, this is OOC knowledge, but nothing the Licori did actually helped resolve the 'Corps are lying' tag. Except Manan and the raid on Silukon station, which provided the first hard evidence, but then they deposed him so welp.
Like I'm not going to deny the Licori were right about piracy, and were justified in some sort of response. But the response they settled on -- escalating to fully declared armed conflict against the OSA government -- was the most bloodthirsty option, and it bears remembering they basically called for the dissolution of the OSA government under threat of arms.
The OSA and Liao are actually on their way to being BFFs. The OSA doesn't hold any ill will... towards the Laio.
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pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
- Location
- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
They had every fucking right to wage a defensive war.
Shooting up people who are from all evidence ACTIVELY SHIELDING PIRATES (and are actually just too incompetent to stop them, not that they could know that without reading the mind of god) is not escalation.
Also look at Glassware telling a great big whopper like "Blowing up the ships pirates use to pirate is counterproductive".
The OSA switched to that from "We're totally innocent and you're persecuting us" AFTER war noises started. God can nobody remember the actual events?
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Surely not because they were both technologically and numerically behind OSA fleet, and thus couldn't really enforce anything.
I find it hard to blame L&L for not immediately backing off once Federation said they'll look into matter. It didn't until the tensions skyrocketed and mobilizations all around the border, and once you whipped the horse of war, it becomes quite hard to unseat yourself from it.
I do wonder why Laio didn't ask us for help earlier, or what happened with the request if they did. GMs, any comment on that?
pheonix89
Wants to be Seven Of Nine
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- North American Plaguelands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Because PLOT.
The arc wouldn't have happened if we'd been able to send in a few excelsiors early.
OSA never said they were totally innocent. They merely said they didn't have proof of guilt beyond (their) reasonable doubt. The accusations started flying after the first major evidence came from Silikoun, which the OSA took as a shock but were even more shocked by the Licori willing to go to the hilt over it.
E: In other words, the OSA only really got word of major malfeasance right around the time war noises started.
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Night
Widow Null
- Location
- Hoff
This may describe what the Liao actually did, but it really doesn't describe the option they got on board with. "A fleet in orbit of Ioji" is pretty much the opposite of a defensive war.
The generous interpretation would be that while the Laio had reasonable confidence in Federation starships, they had doubts about the Federation's detective abilities. They didn't want anti-piracy patrols; they wanted justice for the Odanarr. They didn't think they would get it unless they had a means of putting real pressure on the OSA.
Why didn't they ask the Federation for heeeeeeelp? I keep seeing that in the thread, but help doing what? What they actually wanted help in doing was pressuring the OSA government, and the Licori convinced them that a credible threat of war would be more effective than the Federation's diplomacy. I'd wager that a lot of the Laio thought that it would only be a threat too. They'd threaten war, the OSA would back down and clean their own house, everybody wins.
EDIT: Then the Licori demanded way more than the Laio thought they would, making it impossible for the OSA to back down, and the Laio felt like they were committed and roped into this.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
This was not a defensive war. We have treaty obligations that would have applied in a defensive war. This was blatantly a war of aggression. Your denial of the facts does not magically turn an attempted invasion of a major world into a defensive war, and it does not make the OSA unreasonable for not wanting ex-Kortennon stormtroopers invading their sovereign territory.
And yes, blowing up the government's warships makes it harder for them to deal with pirates.