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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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[x] Kaizuki

Nice to see things working out. Hope her mind change a bit over this.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Aug 10, 2018 at 8:00 PM, finished with 143333 posts and 32 votes.
  • [X] You're starting to think you want to help her with this. Why can't you?
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
    -[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect her to stop doing harm that isn't necessary.
    -[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, and it would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
    -[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, cut to voting.
    -[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    -[X] If at any point it's reasonable, see if you can slip in that you're interested in dewitching. But, don't try to stretch things to achieve that.
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable (ideally following this ordering if possible). If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
    [X] She doesn't want this fight, because it's a line she doesn't want to cross, isn't it? You haven't attacked her and nor does she think you deserve to die.
    -[X] If she argues this, point out it never had to come to a fight. She's been doing this for years - if she'd wanted to kill you, she easily could have by now.
    [X] Nor is it that you can't help her. It's because what she's trying to do is so important to her that the risk of trusting someone is too much for her.
    -[X] If she argues this, refute her. You are the only person she's ever found who can use the power she wants. She came over here on a rumour.
    [X] You're her best chance. Perhaps ever. And maybe she's been betrayed before, but there are things she just can't do alone, no matter how determined she is. No matter how strong she is.
    [X] You don't like what she does, sure. Maybe there are even more horrible things you don't even know about. But there's almost always a reason, and it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve help.
    [X] "Please let me help you, Rionna mag Aoidhe."
    [x] Because the truth is... you need her help, too.
    [x] Show her Aurora. Explain Clear Seeds: the sheer quantity of Grief removed, the quiescent nature of the witch inside, how you've tried feeding this one hope magic and it seems to be accepting it.
    -[x] It might be possible to turn a witch back into a girl. This might be the first step.
    [x] Think out loud.
    [x] Why do you think that Rionna is so sure you can't help? You have two guesses.
    [x] First guess: Rionna has some problem that's even more exotic and difficult than cleansing.
    -[x] She seems to already have cleansing solved for herself, judging by her power's ongoing cost. She knows you can cleanse and isn't interested.
    -[x] You hope it's this because you're currently working on dewitching and were anticipating Rionna's arrival. You're not sure there's much that's harder than that.
    [x] Second guess: Rionna is doing something that puts her on Sabrina's List of Things To Fix.
    -[x] Is the problem with the means to an end or the end itself?
    -[x] You hope it's the means, because your entire purpose in life is to fix everything, and you're damn good at offering people better means.
    -[x] If it's the ends, well, you're always up for therapy. How does she feel about her mother?
    [x] I want to help fix things. Does it have to be a fight?
    [x] Whatever it is you're dealing with, it was worth coming out all this way here. At the very least I can hear you out. Rionna, why did you come out here? What's troubling you?
    [x] (If she's still reluctant) Try to encourage her to talk about her problems. You won't be able to help at all if you don't know what the problem is.
    [x] One of the first things you said was that I can't exactly give you my magic.
    - [x] What did you want it for? What would you expect to be able to do with it that you assume I can't or won't do for you?
    [x] Mention something about dewitching. Maybe it's what she wants from us, maybe it's not, but it's certainly what we want from her.
    [X] Bring up our dewitching efforts, including the progress we've made. That, with some help, we might be on the verge of a breakthrough.
    [x] "Right. Rionna. I haven't actually told my offer yet, have I?"
    -[x] "Show me a grief seed, and I can make it last for a lifetime. Would that be the help you were looking for?"
    [X]'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    [X]'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[X]Listen to what she says.
    --[X]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[X]Listen to response and break for voting.
    [x] Why can't you help her?
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable. If no line makes sense in a situation, or Rionna tries to leave, break to voting:
    -[X] You wouldn't put any preconditions on anything. If you succeed at helping her, then you'd expect her to stop doing harm that isn't necessary.
    -[X] Our morality doesn't preclude working with people who have done horrible things, as long as they're willing to stop once it's not needed. It would be stupid to not recognize that refusals to de-escalate are often based on valid premises.
    -[X] If she displays concern about knowledge of what she's dealing with getting out, assure her that you're able and willing to keep secrets even from very close friends - (gesture at Mami).
    -[X] If she tries to assert that we don't have the capability to help her, refute her. In the end, if we couldn't help her, she'd've had no interest in the clear seed.
    -[X] If at any point it's reasonable, or if she asks what our interest in cooperation is, mention that you're interested in dewitching.
    [X] Deliver points with force. Counter her negatives.
    [X] Tell Rionna that we need to make a soul gem. Her soul vision is important.
    [X] We are not fighting her. Punishment isn't our only response.
    [X] State that saving absolutely everybody is our goal. Helping is our strength. Even strangers.
    [X] Feed Happiness to a Clear Seed right now, in front of her.
    [X] Turning witches back into girls is important to us.
    [X] Proof - We can visit Anri.
    [X] Body fabrication is possible. Grief doesn't form a normal Magical Girl. Others tried it.
    [X] Explain we understand perfectly the evils Magical Girl life leads her to do, whatever they are. Nothing new to see here.
    [X] If any of that would help with her issue, it's time to deal squarely with us. Her wish is right here.
    [X] We can almost communicate with witches.
    [X] Incorporate the following lines into conversation as reasonable (ideally following this ordering if possible). If no line makes sense in a situation, break to voting:
    [X] She doesn't want this fight, because it's a line she doesn't want to cross, isn't it? You haven't attacked her and nor does she think you deserve to die.
    -[X] If she argues this, point out it never had to come to a fight. She's been doing this for years - if she'd wanted to kill you, she easily could have by now.
    [X] Nor is it that you can't help her. It's because what she's trying to do is so important to her that the risk of trusting someone is too much for her.
    -[X] If she argues this, refute her. You are the only person she's ever found who can use the power she wants. She came over here on a rumour.
    [X] You're her best chance. Perhaps ever. And maybe she's been betrayed before, but there are things she just can't do alone, no matter how determined she is. No matter how strong she is.
    [X] You don't like what she does, sure. Maybe there are even more horrible things you don't even know about. But there's almost always a reason, and it doesn't mean she doesn't deserve help.
    [X] "Please let me help you, Rionna mag Aoidhe."
    -[X] Offer her the Clear Seed without the happiness magic in it.
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@Kaizuki - you seem to have gained simplicity, a virtue in writing an instruction. My reservation is that there is now too much chance for "the blade to turn in our hands." The part you do not seem to have a condition for, the gap as it were, is Trust. My imagination is that Rionna is not just strangers with us. I think she can't trust at all right now. Can you account for this?

We do need to break her certainty that she can't succeed with us. Good point!
You have not told Brinapilot specifically how you want to account for the absence of trust, correct?
Your explicit verbal bargaining point is to tell her we have lots of power, in essence?

I tried to slim down this composite. Anyone wish to comment?

[X] Find her core goals.
-[X] Ask bluntly.
-[X] She found Grief powers, and more. She seems to want something beyond free survival. Tell us.
-[X] What is she living for? How does Grief fit in to that?
-[X] Is her drink enchanted with Memories?
[X] Everyone has a motive. Sabrina's is obvious. We exist to break the magical girl system.
-[X] We both want what only the other can provide.
-[X] We don't trust each other yet.
-[X] We'll prove ourselves with actions, not words.
--[X] We'll trade above board. Her soul magic advances Dewitching research, and whatever Rionna's goal is... other than harming the world, we use Grief magic for her.
--[X] If she can't relocate to work with us, we can visit.
-[X] First, we want to apprentice on her enforcement tasks. We show her our morality. She can overwatch.


I wish to do these three things: Dig for her goal, propose Trade as the mechanic between us, demonstrate Interest in her worldview by offering to join her raids.
 
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TJSomething said:
Quick back of envelope calculations indicate that, at speeds that spaceplanes are expected to go (mach 10, or about 12000 km/h) and assuming that we stay below the speed of sound at sea level (~1200 km/h) until the edge of space (100 km above sea level), we can still get into space in less than 5 minutes, then fly to Edinburgh (~9000 km) in less than 45 minutes. And that's an upper limit, since grief is bullshit.
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Given the fundamentals of friction loss, and the incentive to reduce cross-sectional area, Sabrina is totally on-board with transporting another Magical Girl this way. No MOF for this scheme, a minimal diameter fairing to cover us - as we Superman our passenger over the horizon. That is to say, hug them for 55 minutes!

Redshirt Army said:
Please log in to access this terminal. Note that unauthorized access to GUCA may result in censure.

Account: SMiki_n75382
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Heroism! Open Grave heroism, no less.
Satisfying, thanks!
 
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Point Insertion pt. 23
  • Threadmarks
    • And that's the problem. You try to see the best in everyone.

    Everything can be fixed.

    But Rionna is making it so very hard to not consider her an enemy to all you hold dear. You try not to grind your teeth as your mind explodes - part of you still wants to strike first. Strike hard, and you can take her out with ease. For all her bravado, she is cut off from her powers and at the center of yours.

    But. But, but, but-

    You're not a murderer. You don't want to be. Mami wouldn't want you to be, Madokami -Madoka- wouldn't want you to be.

    Homura wouldn't want you to be, you think.

    Homura has killed. She's killed people on presumptions, but-

    She wouldn't kill if she didn't feel she had to.

    And the difference, the difference, still remains that Rionna's so very cavalier about these things. Utterly callous, throwing them in your face, and-

    Wait.

    Wait.

    The question remains -the question you never really asked in all that anger- is why. Why would she be doing this? She's blunt and irascible, but-

    There's two questions here, aren't there?

    You feel pressure on your Grief, from outside. Mami, bringing a hand to touch the Grief you have draped around your shoulder, and you squeeze lightly, reassuringly. She relaxes.

    Why would Rionna do what she does? She's maintaining an entire city, and apparently keeping it on such tight rein she's reluctant to leave for too long. Perhaps it's simply a matter of course, and of confidence, that she believes no fight would take her longer than that.

    And you can feel the Grief trickling up. Hers is certainly a power that requires upkeep, and it's filling at a rate that's unsustainable.

    Either she's using her Grief controllers to keep herself clean, or... perhaps her power requires a higher upkeep because she's so far away. Or perhaps she's maintaining a combat ready state right now. Perhaps. The latter doesn't feel right, though, with the disdain she shows Grief controllers.

    Of course, it could all be an act, but down that way lies endless spirals of paranoia.

    But.

    The other why to ask is why she's so abrasive, right now.

    And...

    She could be trying to goad you into attacking her. Perhaps she has some trump card, and perhaps she wants you to give her an excuse. Perhaps.

    This was a wasted trip for her, or so it seems. She wanted something from you. She was abrasive from the get-go, but... She holds an entire city. Apparently it's religiously cleared of other magical girls.

    Why? She's lived a long time in an existence that kills young. Something drives her, something greater than mere survival. She's harsh and antisocial and apparently driven to hunt down Grief controllers while maintaining an absolute iron grip over her city.

    She holds Edinburgh, and she clings to it with every shade she has.

    Why?

    And there's Oriko's warning about Rionna's sister.

    You're not happy with what she's done. You're not convinced she's not a monster. You're not convinced...

    You're not convinced she's unforgivable.

    "I can't tell you how to act," you say, and meet her eyes squarely. "But whatever it is you're dealing with back home in Edinburgh, I can help you with it."

    Rionna blinks, something flickering across her face. That's a hit, and that's more information than you had before. Something new you didn't know before.

    "My magic can do far more than just move Grief around," you say, gesturing at the privacy field around you. "And what I can't do, I've got people for - or I can find people for. Unlimited cleansing is kind of the ultimate bargaining chip."

    She looks away, and coughs roughly into the back of her hand.

    Madoka would try.

    And if you're wrong, if she's hostile, well.

    Your magic can do far more than just move Grief around. What you can't do, you have your friends for.

    "You can't help me," Rionna says, shaking her head. "Go back to your girl, go back to your friends. Y' don't want this fight, neither do I."

    [] How do you react?
    [] Write-in (word count limit: 150 words)

    =====​

    Breaking early, as requested.
     
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  • Threadmarks
    • [] Why does it have to be a fight?

    Oriko tells us that a fight will ensue if we ask about Riona's sister. Riona thinks that we can not only not help but will get into a fight if we keep trying to help. We have WoF that Riona has done terrible things. There's a consistent explanation with all of these - Riona is actively doing something, as an end instead of a means, that Sabrina can't tolerate. Her certainty here would be her recognizing that she's guaranteed to come into conflict with Sabrina and trying to put it off as long as possible, either in a "enjoy life while I have it" sense or hoping that Sabrina falls and never gets far enough down the list to come down on her.

    I'm not sure what would suffice. Sister is an infinite grief sink?
     
    [X]She's right. Who says it needs to be a fight though? Perhaps she could help you still, even if she thinks you can't help her? There's a lot you're willing to excuse in the name of survival if they stop when you give them the opportunity(Every Magical Girl who knows about Witches and gave Kyubey a seed may have personally and knowingly condemned somebody to Eternal Damnation after all), and you think she's worth the effort.
    -[x]No issue with her helping you find out what happens when you feed a clear seed hope flavored magic, give it a grief edifice to build with to see if it rebuilds the soul gem, even if your standard terms for giving a clear seed would be a fight. Thoughts?
     
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    Well, we made it somewhere. That's a big weight off my shoulders.
    [X] Kaizuki

    I'm just gonna leave this here for now. :p
    Have RL to do today.
     
    NexysDhyArchen said:
    ... Is her Sister a Witch she's been feeding?
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    That's been my guess. Why else would she need to ensure that there's no other magical girls in her city? If true, the happier state of being as a clear seed, particularly one fed happy magic, might be (a short term) answer. Of course, it's just speculation.
     
    What do you all think about giving her a clear seed for now then ask her to give us some explanation if she wants another later on? I'm thinking that Riona thinks that we can't help her because she's doing some morally questionable things (beyond the soul taking) and that she might be doing those morally questionable things because whatever she's doing is taking up so much grief costs.

    At least, Riona doesn't look like she would do morally questionable things for the fun of it, which suggests that there are circumstances forcing her hand. I doubt taht Riona thinks that we will have a problem with having protecting/dewitching her sister as a goal, which makes me think that Riona thinks that we will have a problem with how she's protecting/dewitching her sister. Giving her a clear seed might widen her range of options enough that she can choose a less morally questionable course of action.
     
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    I think we have to mention dewitching, now. "Dewitching effort that went to shit" is one of very few possible explanations for what Rionna's up to that Sabrina would still be willing to help with, and it's a theory that fits the available evidence, what with Rionna going out of her way to collect any and all grief related powers that pop up.

    Moreover, it gives Rionna a bargaining chip - if she knows that we can get something we want out of cooperation, she'll be more willing to trust us to help her. Additionally, even if it's not what she's up to, it gives some idea of the kind of thing we're willing to forgive, and that we're planning to do.
     
    Diomedon said:
    That's been my guess. Why else would she need to ensure that there's no other magical girls in her city? If true, the happier state of being as a clear seed, particularly one fed happy magic, might be (a short term) answer. Of course, it's just speculation.
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    That'd be a partiularly hard one to sell: if Riona's sister witched out then Riona is holdding her as a witch, not as a seed (holding her as a seed would have been easier for transportation in the "keep it safe where I can see you" sense but Riona would have been unwilling to kill her, even in her witch state)
     
    Shortened my vote.

    [X]She's right. Who says it needs to be a fight though? Perhaps she could help you still, even if she thinks you can't help her?
    -[x]No issue with her helping you find out what happens when you feed a clear seed hope flavored magic, give it a grief edifice to build with to see if it rebuilds the soul gem, even if your standard terms for giving a clear seed would be a fight.
     
    Guys, sometimes its best not to overextend. We don't immediately go for the jugular when Kyoko shows a sign of emotional vulnerability, we back off and build on that the next time we see her. This girl is basically super!Kyoko minus the cute little sister.

    Also, while its good to speculate about her sister and motives, let's be careful not to make any votes based on that speculation.

    I would suggest we move on to finally bring up the dewitching stuff.

    []'You're right I don't want a fight with you, but if you ever change your mind about accepting my help, you know how to get in touch.'
    []'Before you leave, could you examine this clear seed with your soul sense? I've been really needing a qualified second opinion on these.'
    -[]Listen to what she says.
    --[]Explain what you know. 'To my senses, this seed feels.... calm, peaceful. Do you think this could be a step toward reversing the soul gem's metamorphosis?'
    ---[]Listen to response and break for voting.
     
    Filraen said:
    [q] Cat Riona

    ....wait, wrong quest.
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    I'm in a quest which had dog Kyouko for an update, could happen here if we find the right meguca.

    Redshirt Army said:
    I think we have to mention dewitching, now.
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    I think we should, and even show our progress on the matter. If we still haven't got anywhere then, I think we should bid her farewell, remind her the offer will remain open and we can get to Scotland in a few hours.
     
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