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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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AuraTwilight said:
I'm not condemning her for that. I'm condemning her for not caring and refusing to change in the face of having new options.
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I don't think she even considers those to be real options, but fake options provided by someone who she doesn't trust.

I'm not really sure that compromise is possible. But I don't think that it's practical policy to attempt to enforce any rules significantly outside of our territory. We don't have the force projection for it. I'm not willing to administer the death penalty or even gemming to people who are just visiting without giving warning of our moral standards.

My current thought is exchange information and say our piece on our moral standards and our current megucatarian efforts. If she doesn't want to play ball, then she should get the hell out of Japan until she's willing to.

Edit: Man it took me over 20 minutes to write this. This thread needs to slow down.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Well, too fucking bad, though. it's in Sabrina's character forever now that she considers this to be slavery. What we do here now reflects how Sabrina responds to slavery, morally.

And it wasn't just the two of us, thanks. It was the majority of the thread, which is why it's Sabrina's thoughts.
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Sabrina, like most thinking people, is allowed to change her mind. If you and everyone who shares your positions suddenly starts making posts about how you've reconsidered the matter and you don't consider it slavery after all, Sabrina would reconsider the matter and no longer consider it slavery. That Sabrina, at one point, had an opinion in no way proves that the opinion is either immutable or inarguable.
 
[X] Reaction: Disappointment.
-[X] Calm down.
-[X] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.

[X] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
-[x] Put your cards on the table. Your goals are:
--[x] To free Magical Girls from the need for Seeds and territory; to allow them to have normal lives.
--[x] And then, once hunting isn't necessary, to help the Seeds themselves. (Pull out Aurora). One day, to turn a Seed back into a person.
---[x] You want this world to be better. And you can do it. She can ask Nadia, she can ask fucking Kyuubey, she can test your power as much as she wants. It's the real deal.


[x] You don't know her. You don't know why she does what she does, you don't know what she wants with your power. But you don't believe for a second she came half-way around the world just to leave empty handed.
-[x] If she wants to help with any of your goals, you can make a deal. You're not stupid, you don't expect her to trust you on faith, and you don't expect her to do it for free.
--[x] But if she's planning to attack you or your friends, if she thinks being kind makes you weak, if she forces your hand... You'll do what it takes.
 
AuraTwilight said:
It wasn't just two people being loud. Firn isn't that fucking lazy or negligent. It was a loud majority that it was abominable. Most people agreed on that. What was divisive was how to handle and respond to it, with a lot of the people saying this is unacceptable also being in the crowd of "Let's give her a chance to redeem herself."

Hell, fuck, I WAS ONE OF THOSE PEOPLE.
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Loud, yes. Majority, maybe. You yourself eventually voted for reason, the majority voted for reason, but a very loud portion of the discussion that lead to that reasonable vote was composed of overreaction and panic.

Regardless, my point is that you can't use a panicked response that was clearly inspired by thread overreaction as a way to determine truth. Truth doesn't care about how loud you are or how many of you agree.

Ideally, we should continue to try and determine the truth before making decisions that cannot be undone.
AuraTwilight said:
What the hell else would you have us do?
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Judge her by what she's done rather than what we fear she might have done. That means continue as we are, discuss things with her, and stop freaking panicking.
 
rikalous said:
Sabrina, like most thinking people, is allowed to change her mind. If you and everyone who shares your positions suddenly starts making posts about how you've reconsidered the matter and you don't consider it slavery after all, Sabrina would reconsider the matter and no longer consider it slavery. That Sabrina, at one point, had an opinion in no way proves that the opinion is either immutable or inarguable.
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Good luck getting Sabrina to change her mind that ripping out people's souls and making them obedient puppet ghosts isn't slavery. How the fuck isn't it?

Firn confirmed it's their actual souls and personhood, in the sense that it's what Madokami comes down to save and take away. It's objectively slavery, or else the word doesn't mean anything. That the souls aren't 'sentient' doesn't mean anything or else no cartoon superhero had grounds to stop any supervillain's mind control schemes. Come the fuck on.

redzonejoe said:
Loud, yes. Majority, maybe. You yourself eventually voted for reason, the majority voted for reason, but a very loud portion of the discussion that lead to that reasonable vote was composed of overreaction and panic.

Regardless, my point is that you can't use a panicked response that was clearly inspired by thread overreaction as a way to determine truth. Truth doesn't care about how loud you are or how many of you agree.
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What I'm saying is that even people who voted for 'reason' still felt, WHILE THEY WERE VOTING FOR REASON, that this was slavery. There's a difference between 'this is slavery, kill her' and 'this is slavery but maybe we can convince her to stop.' 'This is slavery' is not in of itself born of panic.

Judge her by what she's done rather than what we fear she might have done. That means continue as we are, discuss things with her, and stop freaking panicking.
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Well right now, what she's actually doing and not just implying is that she's not going to fucking change what she's doing and she will fucking kill us if we keep trying to convince her.

I mean jesus christ we've gemmed people over less, already.
 
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Aranfan said:
Sabrina thinks Rionna is a slaver. That means what she ends up doing in regards to Rionna will be what she thinks is acceptable to do in regards to slavers.
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AuraTwilight said:
Well, too fucking bad, though. it's in Sabrina's character forever now that she considers this to be slavery. What we do here now reflects how Sabrina responds to slavery, morally.

And it wasn't just the two of us, thanks. It was the majority of the thread, which is why it's Sabrina's thoughts.
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No, it was pretty much you two, plus a few off the cuff reactions before everyone besides you calmed down and actually started trying to be objective instead of knee jerking hard enough to bloody their own goddamn noses. You are The only ones who are still so aggravatingly and uselessly hardheaded about this whole thing, and you are threatening to turn this into either a PR disaster (if we're lucky) or a goddamn bad end to the quest (if we're not).

Neither of you are even remotely reliable or reasonable in this case. You're doing nothing but casting black and white morality over a setting that may as well be the poster child for 'morally grey'.

Get off your high horses, walk away, and think for a little while until you can come back and actually provide useful input rather than repeating the same point ad nauseam.
 
Doesn't sound like we're getting anywhere with the spiel, so I wrote my own version of Onmur's vote that gets straight to the point and draws a boundary we're not willing to cross. I expect her to either walk out, reconsider and continue the conversation, or attack, in order of probability. I'm fine with either of these, and we do leave the option of continuing to talk to her open.

[X] Reaction: Disappointment. Tone: Very serious.
-[X] Calm down.
-[X] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.
[X] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
-[X] Show her Aurora.
--[X] Ask if she sees anything unusual in the Seed.
--[X] Briefly explain your dewitchification experiments.
-[X] When you heard about her from Nadia, you were really happy, because an expert on souls could make a huge difference in making this dream a reality.
-[X] ...but you can't work with her. Not while she continues to enslave souls. You'll try not to judge, but you're not going to condone it.

[X] She came here with the intent of killing another false Grief controller. What does she intend to do now?
-[X] She went out of her way to present herself as a villain who enjoys enslaving others. You don't intend to buy into that provocation, if that's what she was hoping for.
-[X] She is free to stay in Mitakihara as long as she doesn't cause any trouble.
-[X] Your offer remains open, if she changes her mind.

[X] Be on guard for any aggressive moves, and be ready to signal Mami and Homura if it looks like Rionna is going to attack.
 
Spectral Waltz said:
No, it was pretty much you two, plus a few off the cuff reactions before everyone besides you calmed down and actually started trying to be objective instead of knee jerking hard enough to bloody their own goddamn noses. You are The only ones who are still so aggravatingly and uselessly hardheaded about this whole thing, and you are threatening to turn this into either a PR disaster (if we're lucky) or a goddamn bad end to the quest (if we're not).

Neither of you are even remotely reliable or reasonable in this case. You're doing nothing but casting black and white morality over a setting that may as well be the poster child for 'morally grey'.

Get off your high horses, walk away, and think for a little while until you can come back and actually provide useful input rather than repeating the same point ad nauseam.
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Tell that to Godwinson, Redshirt Army, Kaizuki, a handful of others, and apparently everyone likebombing my posts.

And PMMM isn't THAT morally fucking gray. It treats soul manipulation of others for personal benefit to be uniformly black in pretty much the entire extended canon and Firn's world is even lighter on the scale than that. We are literally the personified will of a White-Morality goddess.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Do you think Madoka fucking Kaname would be standing for what Riona's doing? Are you fucking kidding me?
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God Madoka? She takes all magical girls to Heaven. Doesn't matter what they did. She forgives everyone.

Mortal Madoka? She'd be conflicted, but if there was a chance to get Riona to repent, she'd choose to do so.

She would not condone what Riona's done, of course.
 
Redshirt Army said:
@Onmur asked me to put together a composite of a number of the "social Rionna" votes, and this is my good faith best attempt at doing that.

Note that I'm not actually voting for it - my vote remains unchanged. Aspiring to Madokami's ideas of universal forgiveness is all well and good, but we aren't actually omnipotent. Being willing to take megucas beyond a certain point out is going to simplify a number of things - especially Iowa - immensely.


[ ] Reaction: Disappointment.
-[ ] Calm down.
-[ ] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.

[ ] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
-[ ] Put your cards on the table. Your goals are:
--[ ] To free Magical Girls from the need for Seeds and territory; to allow them to have normal lives.
--[ ] And then, once hunting isn't necessary, to help the Seeds themselves. (Pull out Aurora). One day, to turn a Seed back into a person.
---[ ] You want this world to be better. And you can do it. She can ask Nadia, she can ask fucking Kyuubey, she can test your power as much as she wants. It's the real deal.


[ ] You don't know her. You don't know why she does what she does, you don't know what she wants. But you don't believe for a second she came half-way around the world just to leave empty handed.
-[ ] If she wants to help with any of your goals, you can make a deal. You're not stupid, you don't expect her to trust you on faith, and you don't expect her to do it for free.
--[ ] But if she's planning to attack you or your friends, if she thinks being kind makes you weak, if she forces your hand... You'll do what it takes.
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I'll steal some of that.

I think the threat is purely bait, so I think it'd be a mistake to... bite.

Thanks, Red.

...

...

[] Reaction: Disappointment.
-[] Calm down.
-[] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.

[] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
-[] Put your cards on the table. Your goals are:
--[] To free Magical Girls from the need for Seeds and territory; to allow them to have normal lives.
--[] And then, once hunting isn't necessary, to help the Seeds themselves. (Pull out Aurora). One day, to turn a Seed back into a person.
-[] Nadia thinks we're crazy for wanting this, but both she and Kyuubey confirmed our power works. We can do this.

EDIT:

[] Tell Riona you were happy to learn someone with her power existed. You hoped she could help with de-Witchification.
-[] But we can't work with someone who enslaves people's souls as if they were things.

[] She knows making demands and refusing to make a deal won't get her anywhere.
-[] Call her out on her obvious baiting. Cut the crap. We're not an evil monster, we won't break into maniacal laugh and start turning puppies into demons.
-[] What does she really want?

Roomba said:
Doesn't sound like we're getting anywhere with the spiel, so I wrote my own version of Onmur's vote that gets straight to the point and draws a boundary we're not willing to cross. I expect her to either walk out, reconsider and continue the conversation, or attack, in order of probability. I'm fine with either of these, and we do leave the option of continuing to talk to her open.

[X] Reaction: Disappointment. Tone: Very serious.
-[X] Calm down.
-[X] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.
[X] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
-[X] Show her Aurora.
--[X] Ask if she sees anything unusual in the Seed.
--[X] Briefly explain your dewitchification experiments.
-[X] When you heard about her from Nadia, you were really happy, because an expert on souls could make a huge difference in making this dream a reality.
-[X] ...but you can't work with her. Not while she continues to enslave souls. You'll try not to judge, but you're not going to condone it.

[X] She came here with the intent of killing another false Grief controller. What does she intend to do now?
-[X] She went out of her way to present herself as a villain who enjoys enslaving others. You don't intend to buy into that provocation, if that's what she was hoping for.
-[X] She is free to stay in Mitakihara as long as she doesn't cause any trouble.
-[X] Your offer remains open, if she changes her mind.

[X] Be on guard for any aggressive moves, and be ready to signal Mami and Homura if it looks like Rionna is going to attack.
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Actually, for the time being, I'll go with this.

[X] Roomba

I'll keep thinking. I'm not certain on this approach and want to use some the previous approach too...
 
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AuraTwilight said:
Good luck getting Sabrina to change her mind that ripping out people's souls and making them obedient puppet ghosts isn't slavery. How the fuck isn't it?

Firn confirmed it's their actual souls and personhood, in the sense that it's what Madokami comes down to save and take away. It's objectively slavery, or else the word doesn't mean anything. That the souls aren't 'sentient' doesn't mean anything or else no cartoon superhero had grounds to stop any supervillain's mind control schemes. Come the fuck on.
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That's beside the point. I'm not addressing the accuracy of your claims about how terrible Rionnnnnnnna is, because I don't want to get dragged into a shitstorm of that magnitude. I'm just saying that you can't support your position by appealing to Sabrinathoughts that were created by you, among others, expressing that position. That's circular. And you can't support your position by saying that Sabrina feeling one way once means that she can only ever feel that way forever. That's just silly, and I would be quite surprised if Sabrina has never in the course of 650+ updates never changed her mind. Right position or wrong position, it shouldn't be supported by bad argumentation.
 
The apologetics in this thread are despicable. I honestly expected better of you SV.

It was fun Firn, but I'm out. I'll watch the story only thread, in case sanity prevails, but if not... I won't be coming back.
 
I'm skeptical of the "she enjoys enslaving people" thing

It's better. its still a refusall on shaky logical grounds.

I am honestly shocked you guys are sobeh fuck it what's the point.
 
Roomba said:
Doesn't sound like we're getting anywhere with the spiel, so I wrote my own version of Onmur's vote that gets straight to the point and draws a boundary we're not willing to cross. I expect her to either walk out, reconsider and continue the conversation, or attack, in order of probability. I'm fine with either of these, and we do leave the option of continuing to talk to her open.

[X] Reaction: Disappointment. Tone: Very serious.
-[X] Calm down.
-[X] Offer cleansing and cleanse yourself.
[X] Look Riona in the eyes. Override interruptions.
-[X] Show her Aurora.
--[X] Ask if she sees anything unusual in the Seed.
--[X] Briefly explain your dewitchification experiments.
-[X] When you heard about her from Nadia, you were really happy, because an expert on souls could make a huge difference in making this dream a reality.
-[X] ...but you can't work with her. Not while she continues to enslave souls. You'll try not to judge, but you're not going to condone it.

[X] She came here with the intent of killing another false Grief controller. What does she intend to do now?
-[X] She went out of her way to present herself as a villain who enjoys enslaving others. You don't intend to buy into that provocation, if that's what she was hoping for.
-[X] She is free to stay in Mitakihara as long as she doesn't cause any trouble.
-[X] Your offer remains open, if she changes her mind.

[X] Be on guard for any aggressive moves, and be ready to signal Mami and Homura if it looks like Rionna is going to attack.
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My favorite part about this vote is that it opens with evidence, instead of platitudes about our wants. Might put something in it about trying to feed Aurora some positive emotions.
 
Staff Notice
@kinigget thank you. That's what your all doing!

Jeeze.

What gigantic fucking hypocrits you all are. Wow.

Especially given the amount of worm fanfiction we churn out.
 
skaianDestiny said:
God Madoka? She takes all magical girls to Heaven. Doesn't matter what they did. She forgives everyone.

Mortal Madoka? She'd be conflicted, but if there was a chance to get Riona to repent, she'd choose to do so.

She would not condone what Riona's done, of course.
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Well, Madoka would have her release all the souls regardless. Repenting requires that.

rikalous said:
That's beside the point. I'm not addressing the accuracy of your claims about how terrible Rionnnnnnnna is, because I don't want to get dragged into a shitstorm of that magnitude. I'm just saying that you can't support your position by appealing to Sabrinathoughts that were created by you, among others, expressing that position. That's circular. And you can't support your position by saying that Sabrina feeling one way once means that she can only ever feel that way forever. That's just silly, and I would be quite surprised if Sabrina has never in the course of 650+ updates never changed her mind. Right position or wrong position, it shouldn't be supported by bad argumentation.
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Look, I'm not the one who tried to make "Stopping Rionna is acting out of character bluh bluh," that was someone else in the argument. I just brought up that since the thread majority holds that Rionna's soul-slavery is horrible, Sabrina thinks so too. That's in her characterization and it's consistent with everything she's ever thought and done up to this point. It's not exactly a new development caused by momentary thread outrage, merely highlighted by it.

I mean, fuck, Sabrina's rocked people over lesser crimes.

kinigget said:
I refuse to condemn someone for the crime of having a scary power
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Well, that's not why literally anyone in the fucking thread is condemning her, Kinigget. She's being condemned for refusing to change her ways and threatening us with violence and possibly death over it when we asked nicely.
 
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