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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Onmur said:
Do I spot a new tag? How nice.
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"[well that escalated]" Seems apropos.


AuraTwilight said:
Riona proceeds to steal the souls of everyone else Oriko predicted seeing dead with no injuries of any kind, which includes Sayaka, Homura, and Madoka at least.
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Slow your roll there, amigo. I only remember Oriko predicting Sayaka dying in that manner. And "no visible injuries" could be just about anything. Gemsmash, witchkissed into mixing cleaning chemicals together and inhaling the toxic fumes, poisoned by Anri, drowned by Akiko, blood turned into a polymer by Hijiri, suffocation, electrocution, beaten to death with the blunt end of a spear in places where the bruises would be covered by clothing, internal organs teleported out of her body, high cholesterol.

Not to mention that if she was going to be killed by Riona, then I don't see how forcing her to leave her apartment would have prevented it. If she got in the middle of a meguca battle, then it wouldn't have happened at home, so where she's living wouldn't matter. If a sapient entity is targeting her, they're going to find her wherever she's living, so forcing her out of her apartment doesn't matter. It being tied to location implies something without real cognition, like a witch or familiar, either randomly wandering or deliberately deployed.
 
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The Narrator said:
Slow your roll there, omae.
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Hey uh as a Japanese person I literally don't appreciate you using the rudest version of 'you' my language has to offer. You essentially called me a bastard. What called for this?

I only remember Oriko predicting Sayaka dying in that manner. And "no visible injuries" could be just about anything. Gemsmash, witchkissed into mixing cleaning chemicals together and inhaling the toxic fumes, poisoned by Anri, drowned by Akiko, blood turned into a polymer by Hijiri, suffocation, electrocution, beaten to death with the blunt end of a spear in places where the bruises would be covered by clothing, internal organs teleported out of her body, high cholesterol.
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I'm pretty sure Oriko also alluded to Homura and Madoka, but even then, Sayaka was pointed out as being super weird. None of those other possibilities even matter to Sayaka except for Gemsmashing, anyway, and most of those would leave visible marks or wounds.

Not to mention that if she was going to be killed by Riona, then I don't see how forcing her to leave her apartment would have prevented it. If she got in the middle of a meguca battle, then it wouldn't have happened at home, so where she's living wouldn't matter. If a sapient entity is targeting her, they're going to find her wherever she's living, so forcing her out of her apartment doesn't matter. It being tied to location implies something without real cognition, like a witch or familiar, either randomly wandering or deliberately deployed.
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Oriko very obviously orchestrated Sayaka's tragedy so that she would contract for a better reason than Kyousuke, making her more likely to survive and highly more useful.
 
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AuraTwilight said:
Hey uh as a Japanese person I literally don't appreciate you using the rudest version of 'you' my language has to offer. You essentially called me a bastard. What called for this?
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...that's a fuck up on my part. I thought that meant something else. Will edit.

Man, somebody ought to tell FASA they've been using it wrong in Shadowrun books for the last 30 years.

AuraTwilight said:
None of those other possibilities even matter to Sayaka except for Gemsmashing, anyway, and most of those would leave visible marks or wounds.
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Only if she were a magical girl, which she very nearly wasn't thanks to us until Elsa Maria showed up out of nowhere.

AuraTwilight said:
Oriko very obviously orchestrated Sayaka's tragedy so that she would contract for a better reason than Kyousuke, making her more likely to survive and highly more useful.
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We were kind of already intervening on that score, but if Sayaka died because Riona took her soul, I'm not sure her wish and powerset would make much of a difference.
 
The Narrator said:
Only if she were a magical girl, which she very nearly wasn't thanks to us until Elsa Maria showed up out of nowhere.
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Sure, but that's not really important, because 'Feathers does bullshit to close a timeloop' is a pretty core part of 'Sabrina is Feathers' theory regardless of Riona.

We were kind of already intervening on that score, but if Sayaka died because Riona took her soul, I'm not sure her wish and powerset would make much of a difference.
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I don't know, All-the-powers-holy-shit-guca seems way more attractive than healinguca. Or Oriko wants her to be able to defend herself better/copy Riona's power so we can shove the bitch in a fridge.
 
Didn't Sayaka make her wish specifically as a consequence of intervention that Oriko didn't forsee? Something about the future timeline suddenly shifting?
 
AuraTwilight said:
I don't know, All-the-powers-holy-shit-guca seems way more attractive than healinguca.
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When you put it that way, it seems like it would make Sayaka way more likely to be attacked by Riona with the apartment fire than without. If Riona were in the habit of ganking people solely for their powers, which doesn't jive at all with what Nadia told us. If Riona was Sylar, I feel like Nadia would probably have brought it up.

If Riona were somehow responsible for Sayaka's predicted death, the most likely way for it to happen would have been Sayaka attacking her because "JUSTICE!" and I don't really see that going any better for her there then it did against Kyouko. Riona's in a whole other weight class if she can do what she claims.

(I almost spelled her name "Ryona" at one point. That's something totally different, if I'm remembering correctly. I just hope it's not a deliberate pun on Firn's part.)


Skelm said:
Didn't Sayaka make her wish specifically as a consequence of intervention that Oriko didn't forsee? Something about the future timeline suddenly shifting?
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Yeah, she was suddenly witch-kissed by Elsa Maria who showed up inexplicably in a place she had no reason to be and targeted Sayaka specifically. And Oriko had no idea it was coming. If it wasn't for that, Sayaka was on track to never become a magical girl because we'd removed her main reason for wishing.
 
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I've tried to merge the proxy votes manually, so this should be right
Adhoc vote count started by Skelm on Aug 1, 2018 at 7:19 AM, finished with 142334 posts and 69 votes.
  • [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    -[X] Don't monologue. Listen to Rionna, give her a chance to expand or explain her perspective.
    -[X] Don't judge what you don't understand. Inquire.
    [X] Explain you're creating a better world.
    -[X] Admit Riona's actions as claimed might have been necessary in the past.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes regarding implementing justice, protection, equity and accountability for Magical Girls. (etc.)
    --[X] Riona's brand of 'justice' should cease to be necessary.
    -[X] Explain free cleansing distribution.
    --[X] Clear Seeds, upsides and downsides. Need for a better, moral solution.
    -[X] De-Witching.
    --[X] You're creating a network to work on it. You hope Riona can help.
    [X] You want to work together.
    -[X] You are afraid to trust her with a Clear Seed yet, since you don't know her.
    --[X] Invite Riona to stick around, free cleansing as long as she stays, get to know each other.
    --[X] Ask again that she considers working together.
    -[X] Regarding her claims:
    --[X] You can't abide her taking any more Souls, for reasons stated; moral, ethical and practical concerns.
    --[X] Ask whether she can restore, and if not, release the Souls she's taken.
    ---[X] Part of the standards we want to set are humane treatment, for everyone.
    ---[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary. You know that it'll take time.
    [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    -[X] Don't monologue. Listen to Rionna, give her a chance to expand or explain her perspective.
    [X] Explain you're creating a better world.
    -[X] Admit Riona's actions as claimed might have been necessary in the past.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes regarding implementing justice, protection, equity and accountability for Magical Girls. (etc.)
    --[X] Riona's brand of 'justice' should cease to be necessary.
    -[X] Explain free cleansing distribution.
    --[X] Clear Seeds, upsides and downsides. Need for a better, moral solution.
    -[X] De-Witching.
    --[X] You're creating a network to work on it. You hope Riona can help.
    [X] You want to work together.
    -[X] You are afraid to trust her with a Clear Seed yet, since you don't know her.
    --[X] Invite Riona to stick around, free cleansing as long as she stays, get to know each other.
    --[X] Ask again that she considers working together.
    -[X] Regarding her claims:
    --[X] You can't abide her taking any more Souls, for reasons stated; moral, ethical and practical concerns.
    --[X] Ask whether she can restore, and if not, release the Souls she's taken, at least those taken by force.
    ---[X] Part of the standards we want to set are humane treatment.
    ---[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary. You know that it'll take time.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] You're disgusted and want to make that kind of justice unnecessary. You've got the resources to do things more humanely than her and intend to acquire more.
    [X]Riona wants what you have. You want to replicate what you have. Ubiquitous, widespread, cleansing. Widespread enough to risk making Kyubey take more direct action. If he's part of a T4 Kardashev species that could be very bad.
    [X]You can make grief seeds last longer, ease their suffering but that doesn't actually solve the prisoner inside them.
    [X]According to Kyubey witchification staves off the heat death of the universe with the largest energy yields. You don't buy that though. Probably another half truth.
    [X]If the worst happens, if you're slain, the dream must not die with you. Stop taking souls. Work with you to evaluate souls for rebodiment or release into whatever afterlife exists. Free cleansing for life and she gets to be your insurance policy if she can claim you.
    [X] Use grief to generate quiet sound in Mami's ear.
    -[X] "Timestop, now!"
    [X] Rionna's soul gem is a ring on her finger right now. Gem her by cutting her hand off and obliterating her body.
    -[x] Keep soul gem in privacy sphere, to isolate from enslaved souls.
    -[x] Assume she can operate while gemmed. Avoid touching the gem or hand with grief so she can't take your soul through it or get pulled into time stop.
    -[x] Be prepared for either time stop or a countermeasure.
    [x] Explode her gem
    [x] Communicate to Mami via grief: potential foe, high threat, move away, timestop on signal. Arrange some sort of simple, clear and fast signal using grief.
    [x] Calmly ask what that makes her. How many people has she done this to, and under what circumstances. We'll listen.
    [x] She's keeping people as slaves. We wanted to work with her, so so much. We want to make a world where the things she's seen don't happen to anyone.
    [x] What's done is done, but she can stop now if she chooses to. Could she let the shades go?
    [x] Make her an offer- Clear Seeds, money, whatever. Bluntly state we want to help her get what she wants that doesn't involve harming others. Will she stop?
    [x] If she tries to leave the bubble or otherwise stop talking without agreeing to let the souls she's enslaved go:
    -[x] If possible, signal for timestop and bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    --[x] Otherwise, bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] Hear her out if she explains.
    -[X] You understand some of her actions might have been necessary before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claimed. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Can the Souls be restored or otherwise released to wherever they go after death?
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportunity to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
    --[X] Perhaps we seem too idealistic and naive, and we know that sometimes a horrible criminal just can't be redeemed. Still, we want to try.
    [X] Don't grant approval, but give body language and cues that she should keep talking at any time.
    -[X] Use active listening, adding "go on" and "so,?" etc. to encourage her to talk more.
    [X] Remain calm. There are worse people, and she didn't come to assault us.
    [X] Rionna is speaking like she hasn't trusted anyone in a long time.
    -[X] At some later point, explain our real magic is about working together. We will show her.
    [X] Rionna is probably both inebriated, and full of anxiety... enough to tank negotiations to escape her pain?
    -[X] Her brashness is a front. She is very defensive ATM.
    -[X] She told us to judge her, as a way to deal with us doing just that. This has happened to her before. Powers discrimination?
    -[X] Rionna has a simple morality that she believes in very strongly.
    --[X] She is not a good philosopher, there are contradictions
    --[X] She isn't very wise
    ---[X] or mature, though she is playing at the role of adulthood in the way she understands how.
    [X] Talk about Rionna.
    -[X] Ask Rionna to list her goals. How old is Rionna? Personal history?
    --[X] Don't follow up about sister
    --[X] insist on talking about her self interest.
    [X] Learn her actual wish, and contract story.
    -[X] Generic answer was not enough. We need to know her.
    [X] Our basic help is free to her
    -[X] we are more than a simple charity
    -[X] artificial Grief Seeds are needed
    -[X] spreading cleansing and our ability to everyone.
    -[X] Does her ideal world look more like Mitakihara?
    -[X] Serious about de-witching
    [X] Will she stay with us a while?
    [X] Ask details about her powers. What she does with them in her city. Things she wants to try, but hasn't
    [X] Other points: we are the good person we want to be. Describe our soul. Meet our friends, and see proof. How does her telepathy work?
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[Q] Force Sayaka to go on a diet.
-[Q] Make Sayaka exercise every day until she drops.
--[Q] Sayaka must not die of high cholesterol!

*Panting*

"What the... hell... Sa... brina..."

"It's your life on the line, my cute little kouhai! Don't worry, you're not dying on my watch."

"You know... at first I... thought you were kinda... nuts... but then, then you turned... out to be... a pretty cool senpai."

"Aw, thanks!"

"If a tad weird."

*Ruffles Sayaka*

"But now... now I know you're crazy."

"... In a good way?"

"No. You're fucking nuts. I'm not... gonna die of high cholesterol. I'm a magical girl, you moron."

"Well, at least that means you're gonna live! That's wonderful."

*Hugs Sayaka*

"What I mean to say is, everything hurts because of your stupid training, and I'm catching my breath, so you got thirty seconds before I get up and pay you back in full."

"Yeah... you don't sound winded at all anymore."

"Nope. Also, I've improved a lot since we last sparred."

*Squeezes a last hug out of Sayaka*

"That's great. I'm gonna run now."

"You should."

*Lets go and runs for it*

"..."

"... So you're not gonna give chase?"

"Are you kidding? I feel like I wanna roll over and die. Besides, No amount of chasing and screaming will be more stressful on that girl than her own paranoia that I'm gonna pop out of the blue and scream her head off."

"... Good job."
 
AuraTwilight said:
Hey uh as a Japanese person I literally don't appreciate you using the rudest version of 'you' my language has to offer. You essentially called me a bastard. What called for this?
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Now that is not true, come on.
First of all, while it is true that it is a fighting word towards strangers, guys who are close friends use it among themselves all the time.
Second of all, there are at least three ruder versions of 'you' in Japanese, making your statement factually false.
And third of all, never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity. Did you really have reason to believe they were aware of the real meaning of the word, especially with how ubiquitous rude speech is in shounen anime? That guilt trip at the end was really uncalled for.
 
The Narrator said:
Checking the list, there's also "onore" (which sounds familiar) and "unu" (which doesn't). So that makes five words for "you bastard" in Japanese if you count "omae," which kind of seems excessive to me.
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Maybe they carry various implications about the recipient's character, not excluding their parents conceiving them out of the wedlock.
Maybe these words have gradations.
Probably for all of them you can get punched in your nose.

Someday I'll learn two more languages in order to accomplish my lifelong dream of swearing up a storm in six different tongues. Someday. :V
 
Raiseth said:
Maybe they carry various implications about the recipient's character, not excluding their parents conceiving them out of the wedlock.
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Well, I mean, they literally all just mean "you" but in a rude way. Like, "kisama" is a word from feudal times for addressing an inferior.


Raiseth said:
Someday I'll learn two more languages in order to accomplish my lifelong dream of swearing up a storm in six different tongues. Someday
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Swear words are much easier to learn than actual sentences with grammar, because they tend to be said individually and loudly. :D
 
The Narrator said:
Swear words are much easier to learn than actual sentences with grammar, because they tend to be said individually and loudly. :D
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I want to swear fluently, so that one expletive could seamlessly flow into another, so that a statement in Russian questioning one's sexual capacity could be swiftly followed up with an overall denouncement of one's character and intelligence in Kalmyk and Deutsch, topping it off with a colorful explanation of who must have done what with who in order to produce a specimen now standing before me, using three different languages at least.

:V

( Not really, but I can pretend. )
 
Raiseth said:
I want to swear fluently, so that one expletive could seamlessly flow into another, so that a statement in Russian questioning one's sexual capacity could be swiftly followed up with an overall denouncement of one's character and intelligence in Kalmyk and Deutsch, topping it off with a colorful explanation of who must have done what with who in order to produce a specimen now standing before me, using three different languages at least.

:V

( Not really, but I can pretend. )
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You shouldn't settle for six languages. I bet you could pull a Warlord Zsinj and learn to swear fluently in sixty. :V
 
The Narrator said:
When you put it that way, it seems like it would make Sayaka way more likely to be attacked by Riona with the apartment fire than without. If Riona were in the habit of ganking people solely for their powers, which doesn't jive at all with what Nadia told us. If Riona was Sylar, I feel like Nadia would probably have brought it up.
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And, if you recall, the scenario I painted earlier is Riona attacking people because they're our friends, specifically.

Yeah, she was suddenly witch-kissed by Elsa Maria who showed up inexplicably in a place she had no reason to be and targeted Sayaka specifically. And Oriko had no idea it was coming. If it wasn't for that, Sayaka was on track to never become a magical girl because we'd removed her main reason for wishing.
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Yea, I know.

LendvaV said:
Now that is not true, come on.
First of all, while it is true that it is a fighting word towards strangers, guys who are close friends use it among themselves all the time.
Second of all, there are at least three ruder versions of 'you' in Japanese, making your statement factually false.
And third of all, never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by stupidity. Did you really have reason to believe they were aware of the real meaning of the word, especially with how ubiquitous rude speech is in shounen anime? That guilt trip at the end was really uncalled for.
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Narrator and I have failed to get along before, so I'm kind of preconditioned to think he's being uncharitable because he has in the past. Secondly, 'omae' never punctuates a statement when using it as a friendly term. The grammar rules in English are different so I admit that one was more of a knee-jerk reaction, but still.

And, well, I'll follow up below.

The Narrator said:
Just off the top of my head, I think "teme" (sp?) and "kisama" are both versions of "you" so rude that they're generally translated as "you bastard," and I mostly only know the language through osmosis.
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When I said 'omae' was one of the rudest forms of 'you' in the sense of meaning 'bastard', I meant in conventional speech. 'Teme' and 'Kisama' and the others you brought up are from older dialects that are technically out of phase, so their use in anime is basically to convey a sense of "Man I fucking hate you so goddamn motherfucking month I slipped into fucking YE OLDE SPEAK TO CALL YOU A BITCH."
 
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