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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Do we want to at least try showing her the clear seed first? Maybe getting an opinion and what information we can before we initiate hostilities?

If we do gem her, there's no going back. We will be effectively forced to kill her because I can tell you right now that nothing we do after that point will ever stop her from trying to kill us.
 
Enslaving people's souls is seriously fucked up and we definitely have to prevent her from doing it to anyone else. I just don't know if immediately gemming her is the right next step.
 
Spectral Waltz said:
Do we want to at least try showing her the clear seed first? Maybe getting an opinion and what information we can before we initiate hostilities?

If we do get her, there's no going back. We will be effectively forced to kill her because I can tell you right now that nothing we do after that point will ever stop her from trying to kill us.
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I... curiosity can't stop us from doing what's right. And she's going to see the hostility.

Hell, think of what Mami would think. her reaction to the soujos? Taking soul gems and just keeping the unconscious? "Beat her into the ground."
 
The mechanics aren't completely clear still. Can she reverse the process? Does releasing a soul actually do anything?

In practice, it sounds like she's either killing or gemming them, and then retaining some vestige for her own convenience. Which, while disturbing, is hard to condemn unconditionally given the lack of incarceration options for violent meguca criminals. Sabrina herself is aware that she might need to use Niko's freezer if all other options are exhausted, so our moral highground isn't quite so high here.

What is concerning is that she seems to regard what she's doing not as an unpleasant necessity, but as justice being served properly. She's satisfied with condemning her enemies to eternal servitude. That's fundamentally incompatible with how we do things.

I don't think it's a good idea to look at this and go "She's evil, gem her!", but just asking her to stop probably isn't enough.
 
[X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.

Putting an X in this vote, but if anyone can think of anything to say while trying to convince her that what she's doing is wrong, I'll switch to that.

Just, please let's not immediately go for the violent solution
 
Roomba said:
The mechanics aren't completely clear still. Can she reverse the process? Does releasing a soul actually do anything?

In practice, it sounds like she's either killing or gemming them, and then retaining some vestige for her own convenience. Which, while disturbing, is hard to condemn unconditionally given the lack of incarceration options for violent meguca criminals. Sabrina herself is aware that she might need to use Niko's freezer if all other options are exhausted, so our moral highground isn't quite so high here.

What is concerning is that she seems to regard what she's doing not as an unpleasant necessity, but as justice being served properly. She's satisfied with condemning her enemies to eternal servitude. That's fundamentally incompatible with how we do things.

I don't think it's a good idea to look at this and go "She's evil, gem her!", but just asking her to stop probably isn't enough.
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No, Firn said she's keeping their souls in the sense that they're something Madokami would come for. Death would be a kinder fate. We stop her before she can hurt anyone else.
 
If we are disabling her immediately, I think it's worth it to try to arrange things so Sayaka can copy her. (Safely, from timestop, with antimagic on standby).

Sayaka won't be an evil asshole with the power, and having soul magic is probably going to improve our dewitching progress significantly.
 
Subrosian_Smithy said:
I'm pretty sure she's a fair bit older than that.
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Age doesn't imply moral or philosophical sophistication, so I don't think it changes much.
Tam Lin said:
Is she? I thought MGs didn't typically survive a few years.
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Rionna is not typical.
Gadjo said:
that we can do after we've rocked her and put her in a situation where she can't hurt us, if we can figure one out. For now, stop her.
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And you think that will somehow make her easier to negotiate with? She's not attacking anyone right now. You can afford to wait a few sentences to see what happens.
 
Gadjo said:
No, Firn said she's keeping their souls in the sense that they're something Madokami would come for. Death would be a kinder fate. We stop her before she can hurt anyone else.
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'lil bit of Word of Firn since I'm not sure there's a smooth way to find out IC - she's definitely getting Souls-as-in-the-thing-Madokami-would-come-for, and they're bound in servitude to her.
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I interpreted that as she keeps what Madokami would claim if they were a magical girl that witched.
 
Skelm said:
And you think that will somehow make her easier to negotiate with? She's not attacking anyone right now. You can afford to wait a few sentences to see what happens.
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She's already trying to convince us what she's doing is okay. She can see Sabrina's disgust with her. If she sees it while Sabrina pokes for information that only she would have? She'd be stupid not to alpha strike us.
 
I'm going to be busy today and won't be able to devote sufficient time to the tactics until much later, but thoughts:
  • Assume that she has shades set as dead man's switches.
  • Assume she has full telepathy eavesdropping thanks to a shade with infowar powers.
  • Assume she can operate as a soul gem.
  • Assume she can take our soul at range and through our magic via the same principal as soul snuggles.
  • Assume that she has shades saturating the volume so she'll get pulled into time stop if Homura gets close.
  • Assume she has access to antimagic and teleportation.
  • Assume she has contingent effects, meaning contingent escape teleportation and contingent antimagic.
Basically, our win condition requires all of:
  • Riona in a Freezer rather than simply gemmed
  • Riona's shades dispersed or removed from her control
  • Riona blasted with significant amounts of antimagic
The current plans are grossly insufficient.
 
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Gadjo said:
No, Firn said she's keeping their souls in the sense that they're something Madokami would come for. Death would be a kinder fate. We stop her before she can hurt anyone else.
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She's not hurting anyone else right now, and we may be able to convince her to stop. We don't know what will happen if we gem or kill her: maybe the souls will stay as they are; maybe they'll disappear as if the owners died; maybe they'll be released and go back to their respective soul gems/bodies. If the only way for them to be released is for her to do it of her own will, then gemming her is really condemning them to eternal servitude, because we can damn well be sure she'll never cooperate with us again.
 
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I'm going to point out that the MO for Rionna's powers are exactly the same as what Oriko's vision described for the death and destruction of all of our group.

Suddenly someone is dead, and there's no sign of injury.
 
Gadjo said:
She's already trying to convince us what she's doing is okay. She can see Sabrina's disgust with her. If she sees it while Sabrina pokes for information that only she would have? She'd be stupid not to alpha strike us.
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Don't be ridiculous. Very few people jump directly from a disagreement to murder with no steps in between, and she and us both know it.
 
Vebyast said:
I'm going to be busy today and won't be able to devote difficults time to the tactics until much later, but thoughts:
  • Assume that she has shades set as dead man's switches.
  • Assume she has full telepathy eavesdropping thanks to a shade with infowar powers.
  • Assume she can operate as a soul gem.
  • Assume she can take our soul at range and through our magic via the same principal as soul snuggles.
  • Assume that she has shades saturating the volume so she'll get pulled into time stop if Homura gets close.
  • Assume she has access to antimagic and teleportation.
  • Assume she has contingent effects, meaning contingent escape teleportation and contingent antimagic.
Basically, our win condition requires all of:
  • Riona in a Freezer rather than simply gemmed
  • Riona's shades dispersed or removed from her control
  • Riona blasted with significant amounts of antimagic
The current plans are grossly insufficient.
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The idea is to get her neutralized right now, while distracting her from messing with Mami as she calls in timestop, then use timestop to arrange all this other shit.

If we assume she was faking that she couldn't summon a shade, and we're entirely surrounded by them, then we're fucked regardless of anything we do,if they persist whatsoever.
 
Roomba said:
She's not hurting anyone else right now, and we may be able to convince her to stop. We don't know what will happen if we gem or kill her: maybe the souls will stay as they are; maybe they'll disappear as if the owners died; maybe they'll be released and go back to their respective soul gems/bodies. If the only way for them to be released is for her to do it of her own will, then gemming her is really condemning them to eternal servitude, because we can damn well be sure she'll never cooperate with us again.
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She's not going to release them of her free will. She clearly sees nothing wrong with it.
Skelm said:
Don't be ridiculous. Very few people jump directly from a disagreement to murder with no steps in between, and she and us both know it.
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We're not jumping to murder, but she might jump to soul steal. Especially because she's incredibly dangerous and has done it to several people before, even normal humans, who couldn't possibly pose a threat to her.
 
Seriously, going gung-ho into this helps no one, least of all the souls she has. Continue talking to her, unless she's massively bipolar she won't suddenly attack us. As mentioned previously, if she wanted our power that badly she could probably just have shaded us immediately, presumably she wants to talk like mostly normal people (with power over life, death and reality, but pish posh)
 
Gadjo said:
...And those are people, complete and feeling. This is people's souls, not any kind of mind construct separate from them.
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Hence my issue with her binding them eternally. If they all have committed some serious crime but are freed upon her death, then the only framework I can currently understand an issue under is from a torture standpoint, and whether or not that existence constitutes it(albeit to a lesser extent then witchdom).

Edit: Which means her getting immortality is a problem.
 
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Godwinson said:
If we assume she was faking that she couldn't summon a shade, and we're entirely surrounded by them, then we're fucked regardless of anything we do,if they persist whatsoever.
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Yeah frankly I think if she had that she'd already be thinking of attempting a soul steal. She clearly doesn't care enough about other people to stop for no reason otherwise.
Conjured Blade said:
Hence my issue with her binding them eternally. If they all have committed some serious crime but are freed upon her death, then the only framework I can currently understand an issue under is from a torture standpoint, and whether or not that existence constitutes it(albeit to a lesser extent then witchdom).
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She is holding their souls prisoner in servitude to her. That is like, pretty black and white evil. And "well at least you're not witching people out" is a uh, incredibly low bar.
 
Skelm said:
What a blatant load of crap this is. They can think and solve problems and obey instructions but they're not conscious? Bullshit.
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No that's plausible. Consciousness doesn't really do all that much. Sleepwalkers can go through their morning routine and drive their cars halfway to work. It's really important for self-improvement, anything that requires reflection, social modeling... but I get the feeling her shades don't do all that much of that.
 
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Gadjo said:
Yeah frankly I think if she had that she'd already be thinking of attempting a soul steal. She clearly doesn't care enough about other people to stop for no reason otherwise.

She is holding their souls prisoner in servitude to her. That is like, pretty black and white evil. And "well at least you're not witching people out" is a uh, incredibly low bar.
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Eh. Fark it. She of all people cannot be allowed to reach immortality.

[x]Godwinson
 
Godwinson said:
The idea is to get her neutralized right now, while distracting her from messing with Mami as she calls in timestop, then use timestop to arrange all this other shit.

If we assume she was faking that she couldn't summon a shade, and we're entirely surrounded by them, then we're fucked regardless of anything we do,if they persist whatsoever.
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I think it's safe to assume her shades are mostly outside the privacy sphere and that the sphere is a sufficient countermeasure as long as her shades are outside the sphere. I don't think that your plan will get very close to neutralizing her. I'm trying to think of other things, but specific recommendations:

  • Never touch her gem with grief directly. Always wear gloves. Pull metal out of our pocket and use that.
  • If we have any enchanted grief, immediately begin crafting, without trance, a micro freezer.
  • Narrow and stretch the privacy sphere so we're as far from her as possible and there's as little volume as possible for her to randomly have shades in.
  • Don't communicate through Mami, project words directly to homura. Write obtuse Japanese to throw off any watchers she has anchoring automated countermeasures.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Jul 29, 2018 at 11:03 AM, finished with 141802 posts and 17 votes.
  • [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [X] Use grief to generate quiet sound in Mami's ear.
    -[X] "Timestop, now!"
    [X] Rionna's soul gem is a ring on her finger right now. Cut her hand off with grief, do not touch gem with grief, use hand for moving about if absolutely necessary. Keep soul gem in privacy sphere, to isolate from enslaved souls. Avoid contact so she can't act in timestop.
    [X] Use grief to encapsulate Rionna without touching her, and flash-vaporize Rionna's body.
    [X] Stay calm. Keep talking. Obviously, what Riona's done is massively fucked up. But you can't start a fight here, not with all these people around. Get more information, and get Rionna away from the muggles. Perhaps you could show her Warehouse-kun?
    - [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
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Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Jul 29, 2018 at 11:08 AM, finished with 141805 posts and 20 votes.
  • [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [X] Use grief to generate quiet sound in Mami's ear.
    -[X] "Timestop, now!"
    [X] Rionna's soul gem is a ring on her finger right now. Cut her hand off with grief, do not touch gem with grief, use hand for moving about if absolutely necessary. Keep soul gem in privacy sphere, to isolate from enslaved souls. Avoid contact so she can't act in timestop.
    [X] Use grief to encapsulate Rionna without touching her, and flash-vaporize Rionna's body.
    [X] Stay calm. Keep talking. Obviously, what Riona's done is massively fucked up. But you can't start a fight here, not with all these people around. Get more information, and get Rionna away from the muggles. Perhaps you could show her Warehouse-kun?
    - [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [x] The Phoenixian
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Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Jul 29, 2018 at 6:17 PM, finished with 142053 posts and 47 votes.
  • [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] You understand her actions might have felt justified before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claimed. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Ask if she can restore or release the Souls she's taken.
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
    [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [X] Use grief to generate quiet sound in Mami's ear.
    -[X] "Timestop, now!"
    [X] Rionna's soul gem is a ring on her finger right now. Gem her by cutting her hand off and obliterating her body.
    -[x] Keep soul gem in privacy sphere, to isolate from enslaved souls.
    -[x] Assume she can operate while gemmed. Avoid touching the gem or hand with grief so she can't take your soul through it or get pulled into time stop.
    -[x] Be prepared for either time stop or a countermeasure.
    [X] simmer down. Let her explain. Be open about concerns, but dont try to be a judge. Dont start making demands.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[x] Tell Rionna you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [x] You find her actions horrifying. Death would be a kinder fate.
    -[x] You understand that it may have seemed necessary or justified... but you want to make a better world then that.
    [x] You can share nigh-unlimited cleansing - doing so is in large part your goal.
    -[x] You want to work with her. (Pull out Aurora and Hildegarde.) You believe together you can do great things. Provide the means for girls to cleanse their gems without having to fight. An alternative to grief seeds. Maybe even one day reverse witchification.
    -[x] But chaining souls to her service is wrong, regardless of the crimes of her targets. Everyone deserves the chance to change, to grow past their mistakes.
    [x] Plead for her to not enslave any more souls. Ask if she can, in time, release the ones she already has. Ask her to give you a chance to show her that it's not necessary.
    [X] continue discussion.
    -[X] artificial Grief Seeds
    -[X] spreading cleansing and our ability to everyone.
    [X] Will she stay with us a while?
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[x] Tell Rionna you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    -[X] Ask Riona to hear you out.
    [X] Be ready to call Homura for timestop through Mami in case she gets violent. First order: Make sure Mami is out of the building.
    [X] You find her actions horrifying. Enough said.
    -[X] You understand that it may have been necessary or justified... but you can't abide that.
    -[X] There isn't going to be a fight, unless she starts it, but you can't work with her.
    [X] If she wants cleansing? You're willing to pay her in that first stop what she's doing, and then to to release or restore her souls. If they're murderers or people who needed to be stopped? You'll figure something out. If she has another price? Fine. But you can't abide this kind of slavery to continue. Even outright death is better.
    [X] You can still answer her questions.
    [X] Eventually, if the world is left to its own devices, a witch will be born that is strong enough to consume all humanity. Possibly far stronger. As far as Kyuubey is concerned, that witch being born is inevitable and simply a matter of time. He chooses to continue contracting magical girls anyways.
    -[X] You believe that you were, quite literally, created to stop that. Perhaps someone very clever did so by taking that power and ensuring it became you, instead of that witch, or perhaps something else entirely happened, but much of what you're doing is to ensure that end does not, and cannot, happen.
    -[X] Of course, how you were made rather changes the precautions you will need to take so: Ask what she sees in you.
    [X] Be ready to call Homura for timestop through Mami in case she gets violent. First order: Protect Mami from being targeted to get to you.
    [x] Communicate to Mami via grief: potential foe, high threat, move away, timestop on signal. Arrange some sort of simple, clear and fast signal using grief.
    [x] Calmly ask what that makes her. How many people has she done this to, and under what circumstances. We'll listen.
    [x] She's keeping people as slaves. We wanted to work with her, so so much. We want to make a world where the things she's seen don't happen to anyone.
    [x] What's done is done, but she can stop now if she chooses to. Could she let the shades go?
    [x] Make her an offer- Clear Seeds, money, whatever. Bluntly state we want to help her get what she wants that doesn't involve harming others. Will she stop?
    [x] If she tries to leave the bubble or otherwise stop talking without agreeing to let the souls she's enslaved go:
    -[x] If possible, signal for timestop and bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    --[x] Otherwise, bodykill her as quickly as possible.
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Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Jul 29, 2018 at 6:20 PM, finished with 142055 posts and 47 votes.
  • [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[X] Tell Riona you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [X] How many people has she done this to? What were the circumstances? You're willing to hear her out, but her actions sound horrifying, morally and practically.
    -[X] You understand her actions might have felt justified before, but you're making progress towards creating a better world than that.
    -[X] Explain your work and hopes to improve things.
    --[X] Standards, justice, society.
    --[X] Free cleansing, Clear Seeds.
    --[X] De-Witching.
    [X] You want to work with her. If you cooperate, you believe you can do amazing things.
    -[X] But you can't accept what she's claimed. Enslaving people's Souls is wrong, even if they're bad. Ask her to stop. Ask if she can restore or release the Souls she's taken.
    --[X] Offer alternatives and solutions. Jail, therapy, magically created bodies for those souls, magical research, whatever is necessary.
    --[X] Offer free cleansing for life, if she can agree with that.
    [X] Ask her to give us a chance, to work with us, and do better.
    -[X] Everyone should have the opportuniy to become better then they were. That includes the souls she's trapped, and that includes her.
    [X] Continue vote in abeyance: Stay neutral, don't judge her. Give your spiel.
    [X] Use grief to generate quiet sound in Mami's ear.
    -[X] "Timestop, now!"
    [X] Rionna's soul gem is a ring on her finger right now. Gem her by cutting her hand off and obliterating her body.
    -[x] Keep soul gem in privacy sphere, to isolate from enslaved souls.
    -[x] Assume she can operate while gemmed. Avoid touching the gem or hand with grief so she can't take your soul through it or get pulled into time stop.
    -[x] Be prepared for either time stop or a countermeasure.
    [X] simmer down. Let her explain. Be open about concerns, but dont try to be a judge. Dont start making demands.
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[x] Tell Rionna you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    [x] You find her actions horrifying. Death would be a kinder fate.
    -[x] You understand that it may have seemed necessary or justified... but you want to make a better world then that.
    [x] You can share nigh-unlimited cleansing - doing so is in large part your goal.
    -[x] You want to work with her. (Pull out Aurora and Hildegarde.) You believe together you can do great things. Provide the means for girls to cleanse their gems without having to fight. An alternative to grief seeds. Maybe even one day reverse witchification.
    -[x] But chaining souls to her service is wrong, regardless of the crimes of her targets. Everyone deserves the chance to change, to grow past their mistakes.
    [x] Plead for her to not enslave any more souls. Ask if she can, in time, release the ones she already has. Ask her to give you a chance to show her that it's not necessary.
    [X] continue discussion.
    -[X] artificial Grief Seeds
    -[X] spreading cleansing and our ability to everyone.
    [X] Will she stay with us a while?
    [x] Take a moment to calm down.
    -[x] Tell Rionna you appreciate her being frank and upfront. You'll try to do the same.
    -[X] Ask Riona to hear you out.
    [X] Be ready to call Homura for timestop through Mami in case she gets violent. First order: Make sure Mami is out of the building.
    [X] You find her actions horrifying. Enough said.
    -[X] You understand that it may have been necessary or justified... but you can't abide that.
    -[X] There isn't going to be a fight, unless she starts it, but you can't work with her.
    [X] If she wants cleansing? You're willing to pay her in that first stop what she's doing, and then to to release or restore her souls. If they're murderers or people who needed to be stopped? You'll figure something out. If she has another price? Fine. But you can't abide this kind of slavery to continue. Even outright death is better.
    [X] You can still answer her questions.
    [X] Eventually, if the world is left to its own devices, a witch will be born that is strong enough to consume all humanity. Possibly far stronger. As far as Kyuubey is concerned, that witch being born is inevitable and simply a matter of time. He chooses to continue contracting magical girls anyways.
    -[X] You believe that you were, quite literally, created to stop that. Perhaps someone very clever did so by taking that power and ensuring it became you, instead of that witch, or perhaps something else entirely happened, but much of what you're doing is to ensure that end does not, and cannot, happen.
    -[X] Of course, how you were made rather changes the precautions you will need to take so: Ask what she sees in you.
    [X] Be ready to call Homura for timestop through Mami in case she gets violent. First order: Protect Mami from being targeted to get to you.
    [x] Communicate to Mami via grief: potential foe, high threat, move away, timestop on signal. Arrange some sort of simple, clear and fast signal using grief.
    [x] Calmly ask what that makes her. How many people has she done this to, and under what circumstances. We'll listen.
    [x] She's keeping people as slaves. We wanted to work with her, so so much. We want to make a world where the things she's seen don't happen to anyone.
    [x] What's done is done, but she can stop now if she chooses to. Could she let the shades go?
    [x] Make her an offer- Clear Seeds, money, whatever. Bluntly state we want to help her get what she wants that doesn't involve harming others. Will she stop?
    [x] If she tries to leave the bubble or otherwise stop talking without agreeing to let the souls she's enslaved go:
    -[x] If possible, signal for timestop and bodykill her as quickly as possible.
    --[x] Otherwise, bodykill her as quickly as possible.
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Godwinson said:
I'm going to point out that the MO for Rionna's powers are exactly the same as what Oriko's vision described for the death and destruction of all of our group.

Suddenly someone is dead, and there's no sign of injury.
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It matches, but not uniquely well. Anyone could steal a soul gem, and I think all the predicted deaths are of people who are now magical girls.
Gadjo said:
She's not going to release them of her free will. She clearly sees nothing wrong with it.
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Bullshit. I see nothing wrong with not going in to work tomorrow, but that doesn't mean there's no way short of death threats to make me.
FeepingCreature said:
No that's plausible. Consciousness doesn't really do all that much. Sleepwalkers can go through their morning routine and drive their cars halfway to work.
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They can repeat the exact routine they have done a thousand times before. They can't solve novel problems or think.

[X] Don't jump straight to combat
 
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