What a blatant load of crap this is. They can think and solve problems and obey instructions but they're not conscious? Bullshit.

Probably half-conscious. They sound more like D&D zombies than anything else.

Eh.

How about continuing our discussion with her, and if we do establish a research agreement with her, it will be contingent on her not doing it again while the agreement is in force?

And if we don't, then we can Gem her, I guess.
 
What a blatant load of crap this is. They can think and solve problems and obey instructions but they're not conscious? Bullshit.

Could be Rionna offloading thinking processes on their souls like a virtual machine or something.

I doubt the shades are actually souls since actual extracted souls look like soul gems and extracted souls accumulate grief. If they were actual souls, Rionna would need to go through a ton of grief seeds just to maintain them.

They're probably just the aesthetic effects of her magic.
 
While these are human souls, ever read Blindsight? Scramblers can think and problemsolve but aren't conscious.
Peter Watt's theories about the effectiveness of non-conscious thinkers are dubious, and in any case there's no way you could make a non-conscious human that could still do general reasoning. Consciousness is not something bolted on to little effect, it's an integral part of the cognitive architecture.
Could be Rionna offloading thinking processes on their souls like a virtual machine or something.

I doubt the shades are actually souls since actual extracted souls look like soul gems and extracted souls accumulate grief. If they were actual souls, Rionna would need to go through a ton of grief seeds just to maintain them.

They're probably just the aesthetic effects of her magic.
No, we don't know that, we just know that's what souls look like after Kyubey has extracted them. This is totally consistent with soul gems being Incubator technology designed to contain souls in the way required to run the magical girl system.
 
[x] You can't ignore this.
-[x] Snatch her gem- with spikes, blades, whatever you have to- you may not get a second chance- and move it at the fastest possible speed to rock her without straight up killing someone else with it.
--[x] Trap her. Keep her in the privacy field if possible and away from you and Mami.
---[x] Telepathy Homura- you need a timestop pickup, now- if she's fast enough, it may save you if things go wrong.

Going from 0-100 real fast there, maybe calm down a little.

I think the first thing we should be doing is asking whether or not she can put a soul back after taking it out. The second would be asking if she can manipulate or view them in ways other than simply taking and enslaving them.

I would definitely support a vote where we first made it clear that we're not comfortable with her way of doing things and sooner or later we will need to talk about it, but going full 'GEM NAO!!1' is not the way to go here. Rion+a has not even come close to being irredeemable.

Draconian maybe, but not irredeemable.
 
No it really isn't. One is binding them to eternal servitude to you. The other is at least a natural thing that happens to everyone.
 
She's also done this to normal people- this is some advanced evil here, and ignoring it would be unconscionable. She's stealing people's souls to use as power slots forever. We need to neutralize her.
 
No it really isn't. One is binding them to eternal servitude to you. The other is at least a natural thing that happens to everyone.

You're treating this like magical mind control where evidence suggests it really probably isn't, but you've missed my point.

Even if you're right and she's actually outright enslaving conscious beings we still have alternative roads we can take and we should not jump straight to gemming/killing her.
 
Look, you aren't freed from the morality of your actions just because eventually you'll die and better people than you will fix it.

My issue here is the eternal servitude part. The souls that persist after her death. If every soul under her dominion has some grievous sin to them, and they are all freed upon her death. I can live with it. If she doesn't want to free them though. She's as bad as Kyubey and merits punishment.
 
I doubt the shades are actually souls since actual extracted souls look like soul gems and extracted souls accumulate grief. If they were actual souls, Rionna would need to go through a ton of grief seeds just to maintain them.
'lil bit of Word of Firn since I'm not sure there's a smooth way to find out IC - she's definitely getting Souls-as-in-the-thing-Madokami-would-come-for, and they're bound in servitude to her.
 
Some people are seriously jumping the gun here. Gemming/killing her means that's it, no more chances with her. I think we should talk to her more before we decide she's evil rather than just indifferent. Find out better and exactly how her powers work, whether she's telling the truth about the shades not being aware etc. At least give her a chance, she hasn't given us any reason to murder her yet, yeesh

EDIT: Ninjaed by Firn. That makes things a slight bit hairier
 
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She's also done this to normal people- this is some advanced evil here, and ignoring it would be unconscionable. She's stealing people's souls to use as power slots forever. We need to neutralize her.

Uh... Where are you getting this? She's only mentioned doing it to MGs unless I missed something in the last update.
 
Better than Witchification. Rionna is Mortal. Presumably all the shades go free when she dies(Edit: Realized this isn't the case). And if they're sleepwalking they aren't really suffering. She also restricts her target selection. What she does is unsettling but on an ethical scale not worthy of serious concern. Mid-tier or minor concern maybe, but not serious.

"Mid-tier or minor concern maybe, but not serious"? I think you're a bit too desentitized to this.
With maximum benefit of the doubt, she's taking people who deserve the death sentence and making them her zombie slaves.
With minimum benefit of the doubt, she's taking people she doesn't like and making them her zombie slaves.
 
You're treating this like magical mind control where evidence suggests it really probably isn't, but you've missed my point.

Even if you're right and she's actually outright enslaving conscious beings we still have alternative roads we can take and we should not jump straight to gemming/killing her.
This is the kind if situation where pulling a superman and demanding they stop first could kill us. We can't give her that opportunity. Also, if she's enslaving conscious beings, I don't particularly want to negotiate. And that's saying something.
 
[X] Use grief to generate quiet sound in Mami's ear.
-[X] "Timestop, now!"
[X] Rionna's soul gem is a ring on her finger right now. Cut her hand off with grief, do not touch gem with grief, use hand for moving about if absolutely necessary. Keep soul gem in privacy sphere, to isolate from enslaved souls. Avoid contact so she can't act in timestop.
[X] Use grief to encapsulate Rionna without touching her, and flash-vaporize Rionna's body.

We need Rionna as distracted as possible, so that if she can overhear telepathy, she won't have the wherewithal to attack Mami to stop her from calling in Homu-support.

Rionna is the magical girl most likely to be able to operate as a soul gem. The privacy field interdicts her control over her enslaved souls. Soul gem stays, body gets the fuck out disintegrated.
 
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Rionna is also a teenage girl whose morals are "these people have hurt others so I should take them out before they hurt more" and hasn't introspected on why that's wrong.
 
She's also done this to normal people- this is some advanced evil here, and ignoring it would be unconscionable. She's stealing people's souls to use as power slots forever. We need to neutralize her.
No, we need to convince her to undo this. If we just kill her, then there's a pretty good chance they'll just be stuck as bound ghosts forever.
You're treating this like magical mind control where evidence suggests it really probably isn't, but you've missed my point.
You mean her flippant statements that clearly indicate that she doesn't give a shit? I'm not going to weight those very heavily.
 
"Mid-tier or minor concern maybe, but not serious"? I think you're a bit too desentitized to this.
With maximum benefit of the doubt, she's taking people who deserve the death sentence and making them her zombie slaves.
With minimum benefit of the doubt, she's taking people she doesn't like and making them her zombie slaves.
She mentioned she's made an example out of quite a few people. That's not something that people say because they're fuzzy kittens on the inside.
'lil bit of Word of Firn since I'm not sure there's a smooth way to find out IC - she's definitely getting Souls-as-in-the-thing-Madokami-would-come-for, and they're bound in servitude to her.
Yeah no, if that's really the case then she has to be stopped. Quickly.
 
While these are human souls, ever read Blindsight? Scramblers can think and problemsolve but aren't conscious.

Blindsight is bad philosophy that has somehow managed to completely poison reductionist theories of mind. The idea that you can create an intelligent system that models itself in relation to the world and mediates and extensively mediates and integrates information and somehow isn't conscious is nonsense only one step removed from outright suggesting P-Zombies. The idea that you can create a system that doesn't perform these computational functions and is actually effective is even worse nonsense.

The only way Rionna's souls aren't conscious at all is if magic allows for P-Zombies.
Rionna is also a teenage girl whose morals are "these people have hurt others so I should take them out before they hurt more" and hasn't introspected on why that's wrong.

I'm pretty sure she's a fair bit older than that.
 
Uh... Where are you getting this? She's only mentioned doing it to MGs unless I missed something in the last update.
You did.
"Judge all y' want," Rionna says, shrugging. She caps her flask and sets it aside. "What's done is done is done. I can take Souls. Magical girl, normal people. Leaves 'em brain-dead, and..." She straightens and holds a hand out to the side, as if to take someone's hand.
 
Blindsight is bad philosophy that has somehow managed to completely poison reductionist theories of mind. The idea that you can create an intelligent system that models itself in relation to the world and mediates and extensively mediates and integrates information and somehow isn't conscious is nonsense only one step removed from outright suggesting P-Zombies. The idea that you can create a system that doesn't perform these computational functions and is actually effective is even worse nonsense.

The only way Rionna's souls aren't conscious at all is if magic allows for P-Zombies.


I'm pretty sure she's a fair bit older than that.
Is she? I thought MGs didn't typically survive a few years.
 
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