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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Appletank said:
...wait, if the rings have the girls' names, then how are we reading their witch names?
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We're getting the witch names by directly examining the witch-kernel inside the grief seed with our grief senses. It's entirely separate from our ability to read runes, which presumably comes from meta-knowledge (though, as I wrote earlier, if it really is as simple as it is out of universe, we shouldn't be the only ones who can do it).
 
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[x] Onmur


Kaizuki said:
[X] Explain your belief that you are a product of a wish. Omit any suspicion of whose wish in particular -
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I feel like revealing even this much is dangerous. Kyubey knows he hasn't granted any such wish (just like how he knows that Homura never made a contract with him in this timeline), so it's a colossal hint towards our potential origins. And he probably knows there's only one person with enough potential to make that wish across timelines.


Qwertystop said:
"a ROB did it"
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That's the second time I've seen that acronym on these forums in as many days. What does it stand for?

TotalTemplar03 said:
Speaking of soul ring inscriptions, we should mention that Sabrina can read Witch Runes. That should lend some more credence to the theory that we have something to do with a Witch.
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Sabrina can read Witch Runes because people in the thread can read them. Fans figured out the cipher and created translations guides.
 
Mami's Mental Health - Status Update

Firnagzen said:
"It's alright," Mami says, swallowing. "I understand. I... I'll practice my enchantment, while I wait for you?"

"Alright," you echo. "If you're sure?"

"I am," Mami says, giving you a wan smile. You kiss her gently on the cheek and pull her into a hug, savouring the contact before straightening. "I won't be going anywhere, alright? Just-"

"Ahem," Riona says.

You ignore her. "Just inside the privacy field. And I'll be back."

"Alright," Mami whispers, taking a breath. "Alright."
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Damn, Mami's phobia of abandonment is rearing up again pretty hard if she's reacting so strongly to us going inside of a privacy sphere right in front of her, inside of a room with only a single door.

If it gets this bad even once a day while she's at school, it's a wonder that she's able to cope. I suppose she has telepathy, and she obviously doesn't have that here, but still. It's no wonder she's literally running out the door and into Sabrina's arms every day after school and at lunch--she probably has to constantly battle serious anxiety throughout the whole school day, which flares up whenever she's not sufficiently distracted from Sabrina's absence.

...given that, and the rather short amount of time Sabrina has been in Mami's life, I think there's a strong chance that Mami not constantly reaching out to Sabrina telepathically while she's at school (which she stopped doing after a day or two) has far more to do with dropping the habit out of fear of annoying Sabrina or driving her away rather than Mami's mental health actually improving to the point where she doesn't feel like she needs it.

Hm. We could try taking one of Mami's ribbons with us throughout the day, and giving her soul hugs remotely whenever she's in between periods/has a free moment? It'd be a lot more reassuring to her than just constant brief, superficial, repetitive conversations over telepathy, because the telepathy is "just" words (for lack of a better term), while the soul hugs also convey feelings and emotions.
 
AuraTwilight said:
According to Inu Curry, True Names exist and have some sort of power wherein Witches will refuse to give them, even if they're like Bebe in Rebellion, meaning it's not just a grief-inspired delusion.

Postulate: Birth True Name, like "Madoka Kaname." When you make a contract, your True Name is imprinted on your Ring, but inside your Soul Gem, Sabrina can see your Witch's True Name, "Kriemhild Gretchen." You have two sides to yourself and two True Names, one representing your human existence and one representing your magical existence. When you become a Witch, your human True Name dies, and you are purely Gretchen at this point. Madoka Kaname was the egg shell you broke out of, as symbolized by your Soul Gem.

Sabrina wasn't Sabrina when she contracted. She was just a nameless girl who contracted, and so only had one name, "Dedolere" for her Soul Ring to read. Which is fitting, as putting aside "Bluh bluh grief magic" stuff, we...don't actually really HAVE a 'human existence' before contracting, especially if we're indeed a homunculus born of magic.

Essentially, we ARE a Witch. But unlike most Witches, we're not made out of despair, grief, and malice. We're a Witch born out of one little girl's hope to fix everything, and save everyone, and for all these people to stop despairing. For them to grieve no more.
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Raiseth said:
AuraTwilight already gave it a thought, and I think I agree with him.
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I'm more inclined to think of a Magical Girl as a binary fusion organism.
The Witch she is begins life blank, and becomes her shadow by transferring / learning all her experience. This has an echo in that Familiars must obtain humans in order to graduate and obtain their own Grief Seed. Without a human soul as a partner to copy something vital from, the complete being cannot form and obtain energy (magic). The Witch is needed at Contract because the Human generates a negative energy phenomenon, but cannot make it work at usable power levels. As a form of technology, a Witch is a heuristic control system and amplifier for negative emotional energy. It isn't intended to be a strong AI, merely to emulate enough of the human soul to do that soul's bidding with magical output. Magic is all it knows, memories are there only for host interaction. Lethal Grief levels teach it how to access some emotional power itself in a standalone overload state. After seizing control of the partner, it continues as the low-fi copy of her memories, locked in to those that keep it operating. Her suffering. And becoming the battery Kyuubey intended.

SaltyWaffles said:
Mami's Mental Health - Status Update


Damn, Mami's phobia of abandonment is rearing up again pretty hard if she's reacting so strongly to us going inside of a privacy sphere right in front of her, inside of a room with only a single door.

If it gets this bad even once a day while she's at school, it's a wonder that she's able to cope. I suppose she has telepathy, and she obviously doesn't have that here, but still. It's no wonder she's literally running out the door and into Sabrina's arms every day after school and at lunch--she probably has to constantly battle serious anxiety throughout the whole school day, which flares up whenever she's not sufficiently distracted from Sabrina's absence.

...given that, and the rather short amount of time Sabrina has been in Mami's life, I think there's a strong chance that Mami not constantly reaching out to Sabrina telepathically while she's at school (which she stopped doing after a day or two) has far more to do with dropping the habit out of fear of annoying Sabrina or driving her away rather than Mami's mental health actually improving to the point where she doesn't feel like she needs it.

Hm. We could try taking one of Mami's ribbons with us throughout the day, and giving her soul hugs remotely whenever she's in between periods/has a free moment? It'd be a lot more reassuring to her than just constant brief, superficial, repetitive conversations over telepathy, because the telepathy is "just" words (for lack of a better term), while the soul hugs also convey feelings and emotions.
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We will need to level up our affirmation game. I think the long march of cognitive treatment is our only safe option ATM. We already have a short term relief technology, the ribbon bracelet. We could decide upon a usage style. Asking everyone to pick up more contact with her will definitely help also, over a few weeks time.

Rionna has just gathered a basic comprehension of our problems just by watching the two of us under her scan, I'd wager.
 
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HeroCycle said:
I'm more inclined to think of a Magical Girl as a binary fusion organism.
The Witch she is begins life blank, and becomes her shadow by transferring / learning all her experience. This has an echo in that Familiars must obtain humans in order to graduate and obtain their own Grief Seed. Without a human soul as a partner to copy something vital from, the complete being cannot form and obtain energy (magic). The Witch is needed at Contract because the Human generates a negative energy phenomenon, but cannot make it work at usable power levels. As a form of technology, a Witch is a heuristic control system and amplifier for negative emotional energy. It isn't intended to be a strong AI, merely to emulate enough of the human soul to do that soul's bidding with magical output. Magic is all it knows, memories are there only for host interaction. Lethal Grief levels teach it how to access some emotional power itself in a standalone overload state. After seizing control of the partner, it continues as the low-fi copy of her memories, locked in to those that keep it operating. Her suffering. And becoming the battery Kyuubey intended.
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Yea except Rebellion completely blew this the fuck out of the water.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Yea except Rebellion completely blew this the fuck out of the water.
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I'll have to verify that in more detail myself. I'm not so sure the modifications and witch-powerups they scripted in directly contradict "cyberization"/symbiosis, so without refreshing my memory I have to continue with my interpretation. One way or the other, I think we are both trying to answer "where is the humanity of a de-witched girl." If you are right, de-witching is already theoretically complete, we just need to execute it longer.

Understand the technique in front of us. Rionna is seemingly taking big risks. Not that this is true.
She has confidence that we are all within her one-shot capability if we turn hostile.
Her experience and her magic let her directly inspect our intent on some level. She can afford to be bad at social, because she has an unreasonable way to make up for her weakness.
Perhaps some of you would liken her to "Armsmaster?"

Therefore, big declarations up front. She will read our intent.

Our large concern was just answered, we have her in privacy. Give her something, then go down to our next smallest concerns, Kyuubey and witchbomb.

Kaizuki has a reply for Rionna that causes less problems.

Get to a good stopping point, and let her get some sleep.



[X] Explain your belief that you are a product of a wish. Omit any suspicion of whose wish in particular -- multiple timelines, Madokami, and Madoka's potential should all remain tightly suppressed.
-[X] Give evidence: no history, sudden appearance, strange knowledge. Omit any mention of personal knowledge (Mami, Homura, etc) but note both general knowledge & specifics of Puella Magi system.
-[X] Hijiri exists
-[X] please describe our soul in detail?
[X] we have a reason to want her here
-[X] what is her reason to seek us?
-[X] can we work together?
[X] Kyuubey talk
-[X] ask about regular souls / our soul
-[X] re Hijiri - are we like wish created, or witch human?
[X] witchbomb status / protect innocents
-[X] why we infosec, and what we expect.
[X] discuss powers, read her witch name, clear seed talk
[X] return to Mami
[X] telepathy Niko
[X] Ask how late she wants to talk tonight
[X] Our local history
[X] her history
[X] We have people to gather, that want to meet her.
[X] write out a few bilingual notes for her to use with the hotel staff
-[X] and a written address for her to meet us at
-[X] and imply that she could use the hotel's business card to communicate her return destination in a taxi.
 
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Appletank said:
...wait, if the rings have the girls' names, then how are we reading their witch names? Is there a second layer that we can read? If so, does that mean that both layers of our ring says "Dedolere"?
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It's been pointed out how we read Witch's Soul's names, only thing left to do is post pics:


Here we see Mami's ring, which reads 'Mami' (in between two decorative characters; Sayaka's and Kyouko's rings, from which we can read only parts of their names, 'aya' and 'ko'.

These are the very real, very physical inscriptions meguca could learn to read, with enough examples to look at.

Unless they're actually spiritual manifestations only visible to the audience. :thonk:


The Narrator said:
That's the second time I've seen that acronym on these forums in as many days. What does it stand for?
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Besides meaning Random Omnipotent Being, I find ROB to be a particularly lazy way to start a story, or at least, many awful writers seem to use it.

'character x wakes up at y and finds a note from rob z trying to say something cryptic or lulz'

By deliberately spelling out that 'a ROB did it', there's no need to actually think up a reason why the character was inserted into the story...

Kaizuki said:
I mean, we want things from her, the question is what she wants here. What's the worst possibility? She's, like, actually evil Oriko?

The way she has handled things so far -- the whole showing up and just kind of not bothering with any explanations or details -- at least one of these is the case:

Case 1: she's here purely to bitch at us and try to figure out how/why we have "succeeded where everyone else has failed."
Case 2: she hasn't felt any need to state a purpose because she thinks it's obvious.
Case 3: she hasn't stated a purpose because she's socially clueless.

I'm distinctly in favor of case 2, but I'll admit it's not a sure thing. All the language about "what everyone has been trying to do since forever" really has made me expect she's kind of assuming that given what we can do, we've already succeeded at completely breaking the puella magi system. She's not even completely wrong.

Another thing is, anybody aware of the witchbomb is probably at least semi-trustworthy. You don't kill the goose that lays the golden egg, so to speak. Exceptions for crazy nutjobs -- Iowa, e.g.

All of this makes me inclined to at least half trust her.

Honestly, though, the more I think about this the more inclined I am to revisit my knee-jerk reaction to this situation:

"I am going to be completely honest with you: there are things I'm not going to tell you because if Kyubey got its paws on them, it might be able to kill all of us with them. The fewer people with that sort of stuff in their heads, the better, full stop. We haven't won yet."
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No every meguca who knocks on our door will be a Madokami-sent who is actually nice and good. What I get is that you want to make things easy on Riona and show her trust to make this whole thing work better, but your assumptions only work if you assume Riona is... Good?

When a psychopathguca walks up to us and tries to get close enough to kidnap us and use us as a tool, they're not gonna come with flashing neon lights overhead pointing 'UH OH TROUBLE'. They will look like any normal person. Hell, we want to help all the gucas; it's not a matter of whether they're EVIL; we will find gucas who will very much consider kidnapping us and using us, and whether they try or not, will be a matter of how we deal with them.

If we show trust to a meguca who has done literally nothing to show they're worth that trust, then that's just how we treat any random guca we meet, and that'll bite us at some point.

The only things setting Riona aside from any random guca are that she has useful powers (not a point we should use to decide to trust someone), that Nadia didn't say she was mean (didn't actually vouch for Riona, afaik), and that she might kill Oriko at some point (though that could very well be Oriko's fault).

In my personal opinion, Riona so far does sound like she could be weighing whether she should de-Gem both us and Mami and just take her time to analyze our Soul and try to figure how our powers work without having to deal with annoying things, like treating us like 'a human being' and such. And it's not out of EVILNESS, more like, I don't think she cares all that much.

This is part of why we should ask after her motives, first. Find out what she cares about. That should help as a guide as to how make things easier on both of us.

"I am going to be completely honest with you: there are things I'm not going to tell you
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I agree with this much; I had a line like it in an earlier protovote, but I omitted it because I figured it should be obvious to both Sabrina and Riona.
 
The Narrator said:
I stand by my earlier analysis: this is too dangerous a thing to reveal to someone we've just met. Kyubey will know immediately that it couldn't possibly have been a wish in this timeline, and from there he can figure out the rest pretty easily.
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If we are inside the Privacy, Rionna would have to repeat it outside for the information to get to Kyuubey, correct?

Even a girl against us is likely also not sharing things with Kyuubey once she understands a little about it.

We can dither to another delay dialogue, but I'm thinking our best move is to get more truth out of her, not try to lie. We are standing in a lie detector right now, IMHO.
 
HeroCycle said:
If we are inside the Privacy, Rionna would have to repeat it outside for the information to get to Kyuubey, correct?

Even a girl against us is likely also not sharing things with Kyuubey once she understands a little about it.
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Information isn't compartmentalized only to prevent people from deliberately sharing it with the enemy. We don't know this girl or how good she is at keeping secrets. The one thing we do know about her so far is that she doesn't choose her words carefully.

Also, girls working against both us and Kyubey have leaked our secrets to him before. He learned about Homura's power from Oriko, after all.

This person is a stranger. You don't tell people that you just met your PIN number.
 
Higure said:
Daily reminder we should have gotten lie detection.
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That would have fished up more issues, particularly during the most recent time we were contemplating it, though.

Or, I suppose a personal lie detector that's more of a verification of "you seem like you're being truthful, this makes my gut feeling more reliable by about 34%" rather that something we're using for admissible evidence and argument purposes would be a lot less fraught, but even then we'd need to collectively agree on the extent to which we'd rely on it.

... mneyh, we will need one eventually, though, prolly. Polygraph admissibility-wise, at the very least. You're correct, they're useful.

... some of my reluctance, aside from personal reasons, has to do with the fact that truth is hella subjective, and pinning down the nuance of "literal truthful description of events" v "self delusion" v "we define these terms entirely differently and also view their connotations and implications entirely differently" v "because this is generated by our power, our bias leaks into the interpretation of truth" and similar issues seem like a minefield of complications that we'd need to keep an eye out for, and I feel particularly things like "we define these terms entirely differently and also view their connotations and implications entirely differently" could cause big issues, unless we're in an actual interrogation and have the opportunity to pin down definitions.

... anyway. That aside,

The Narrator said:
Information isn't compartmentalized only to prevent people from deliberately sharing it with the enemy. We don't know this girl or how good she is at keeping secrets. The one thing we do know about her so far is that she doesn't choose her words carefully.

Also, girls working against both us and Kyubey have leaked our secrets to him before. He learned about Homura's power from Oriko, after all.

This person is a stranger. You don't tell people that you just met your PIN number.
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Agreed.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Mami's Mental Health - Status Update


Damn, Mami's phobia of abandonment is rearing up again pretty hard if she's reacting so strongly to us going inside of a privacy sphere right in front of her, inside of a room with only a single door.

If it gets this bad even once a day while she's at school, it's a wonder that she's able to cope. I suppose she has telepathy, and she obviously doesn't have that here, but still. It's no wonder she's literally running out the door and into Sabrina's arms every day after school and at lunch--she probably has to constantly battle serious anxiety throughout the whole school day, which flares up whenever she's not sufficiently distracted from Sabrina's absence.

...given that, and the rather short amount of time Sabrina has been in Mami's life, I think there's a strong chance that Mami not constantly reaching out to Sabrina telepathically while she's at school (which she stopped doing after a day or two) has far more to do with dropping the habit out of fear of annoying Sabrina or driving her away rather than Mami's mental health actually improving to the point where she doesn't feel like she needs it.

Hm. We could try taking one of Mami's ribbons with us throughout the day, and giving her soul hugs remotely whenever she's in between periods/has a free moment? It'd be a lot more reassuring to her than just constant brief, superficial, repetitive conversations over telepathy, because the telepathy is "just" words (for lack of a better term), while the soul hugs also convey feelings and emotions.
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I have a Plan(tm), I just need us to spend an hour alone with her.

Which... I was planning on that being now. Riona's timing suuuuuuuuuucks.
 
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