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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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If you dispense with security just because you know for a fact that it's not needed, then your security is only as good as your ability to not be critically wrong. Whereas good security protects you even if you're wrong.

Kai Merah said:
I don't understand this bit. Mami asks if she should be in this conversation. Sabrina's thoughts indicate yes, Mami should be in this conversation. Then Mami immediately excuses herself from the conversation. Am I missing something?
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Mami has opted out of knowing the witchbomb. Sabrina respects this, but wishes it wasn't so.
 
Onmur said:
A bit too fast on the trigger? o_O How do we explain this belief of us, in a way that won't paint a target on Madoka?

Why would we believe this, other than the actual reason we do? We can't just /because this. Riona will want to know why, and if we don't answer, she'll find out on her own.

I'd much rather try and find out Riona's angle on all this before risking important information.
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We believe it because as far as can be told, we spontaneously formed, in a situation highly encouraging us to make a wish, with knowledge (that we had no reasonable way of learning) directing us towards a wish of this general type, and with a ludicrous amount of potential relative to our personal history.

There's not really any plausible answer to "where did we come from" other than "magic", and the most likely magic to do something as odd as this is a wish. That remains true even if we didn't have any idea of who in particular might have wished for such a thing.
 
Qwertystop said:
We believe it because as far as can be told, we spontaneously formed, in a situation highly encouraging us to make a wish, with knowledge (that we had no reasonable way of learning) directing us towards a wish of this general type, and with a ludicrous amount of potential relative to our personal history.

There's not really any plausible answer to "where did we come from" other than "magic", and the most likely magic to do something as odd as this is a wish. That remains true even if we didn't have any idea of who in particular might have wished for such a thing.
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Don't we believe the Wish theory (and have such a theory to start with) because we saw Madokami's eyes and Homu told us about Madoka's Wish? Like, specifically. :/
 
Onmur said:
Don't we believe the Wish theory (and have such a theory to start with) because we saw Madokami's eyes and Homu told us about Madoka's Wish? Like, specifically. :/
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Yes, but I don't think it's an unreasonable conclusion to come to without that particular bit of information.

Seriously, I think that if we hadn't known Madoka's wish – frankly, even if we hadn't known about the time-travel or Madoka's high potential – "some girl Wished that someone could fix the Magical Girl system" would be at or near the top of the list of possible explanations for what's going on with Sabrina. And the rest of the explanations are all too meta ("a ROB did it", "that's just how the story's going don't question it", etc).

Redshirt Army said:
Note that the thread as a whole didn't believe that Sabrina was created by a Wish until Homura told us what Madoka's wish was. It's not actually that easy a leap of logic.
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Really? It seems pretty simple to me. Sabrina's existence is unexplained and too perfectly suited to fixing things to be reasonably attributed to blind chance, therefore magic is probably involved, Wishes are the only sort of magic we know of that can have effects this broad (see also, the general speculation that wishes led to the improvement of the lives of idols, the strange architecture, the quality of Mitakiharan education, etc.)
 
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Qwertystop said:
We believe it because as far as can be told, we spontaneously formed, in a situation highly encouraging us to make a wish, with knowledge (that we had no reasonable way of learning) directing us towards a wish of this general type, and with a ludicrous amount of potential relative to our personal history.

There's not really any plausible answer to "where did we come from" other than "magic", and the most likely magic to do something as odd as this is a wish. That remains true even if we didn't have any idea of who in particular might have wished for such a thing.
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Onmur said:
Don't we believe the Wish theory (and have such a theory to start with) because we saw Madokami's eyes and Homu told us about Madoka's Wish? Like, specifically. :/
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Redshirt Army said:
Note that the thread as a whole didn't believe that Sabrina was created by a Wish until Homura told us what Madoka's wish was. It's not actually that easy a leap of logic.
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Qwertystop said:
Yes, but I don't think it's an unreasonable conclusion to come to without that particular bit of information.

Seriously, I think that if we hadn't known Madoka's wish – frankly, even if we hadn't known about the time-travel or Madoka's high potential – "some girl Wished that someone could fix the Magical Girl system" would be at or near the top of the list of possible explanations for what's going on with Sabrina. And the rest of the explanations are all too meta ("a ROB did it", "that's just how the story's going don't question it", etc).
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For reference: Re: The origins of Wish theory:

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema | Page 5446

I refer you to my archeological dig.
 
Qwertystop said:
Yes, but I don't think it's an unreasonable conclusion to come to without that particular bit of information.

Seriously, I think that if we hadn't known Madoka's wish – frankly, even if we hadn't known about the time-travel or Madoka's high potential – "some girl Wished that someone could fix the Magical Girl system" would be at or near the top of the list of possible explanations for what's going on with Sabrina. And the rest of the explanations are all too meta ("a ROB did it", "that's just how the story's going don't question it", etc).
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Just "some girl" wouldn't really explain anything. If we didn't know about Madoka's universe rewriting levels of potential in canon, we wouldn't have a clue where to start theorizing.

Specially since KB confirmed our power being unique. Our power is literally impossible, no wish from any girl can make it happen.

It makes sense to us because we know Madoka's power literally goes outside reality, rearranges the universe a bit, gives it new rules, and generally makes it better.

It makes sense to us, for good reasons!

Riona's not gonna buy it. We don't make sense, and saying /magic a wish made it so, doesn't explain anything... except that there's more we're not telling her...
 
I'd phrase the security question as
[ ] Sorry about that, after hearing the first bitter secret about our soul gems Mami chose to remain ignorant of the second. I assume you know of both, right?

Direct and to the point without implying she is unaware. A brisk nod is all that's needed from her side.


BTW, I'm in favour of stating that
[ ] A MG with high potential wished that the MG system could be fixed, and the timing matches with our appearance (throws off potential probing). We theorize that phrasing it as 'could be' led to an indirect solution via creating us with our unusual soul. We know of another case in Japan where a girl wished into existence became exceptionally powerful.
 
Onmur said:
Just "some girl" wouldn't really explain anything. If we didn't know about Madoka's universe rewriting levels of potential in canon, we wouldn't have a clue where to start theorizing.

Specially since KB confirmed our power being unique. Our power is literally impossible, no wish from any girl can make it happen.

It makes sense to us because we know Madoka's power literally goes outside reality, rearranges the universe a bit, gives it new rules, and generally makes it better.

It makes sense to us, for good reasons!

Riona's not gonna buy it. We don't make sense, and saying /magic a wish made it so, doesn't explain anything... except that there's more we're not telling her...
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Firnagzen said:
But as to why, my best guesses aren't very good. I have ideas, yes, but nothing that I've been able to confirm.
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All we have to do is not be certain about it. We "suspect" based on loose evidence -- that's all we have to say. She can buy it or not: we aren't lying, compromising ourselves, or saying anything falsifiable. If she decides there must be more to it -- it's not like there's evidence for her to go find. Knowledge of Homura's powers and Madoka's potential could be used to hypothesize the situation, but the time travel has to be worked out first and that requires help from Kyubey, who knows that Homura 'never' made a contract with him. Compared to the alternative of doing... What? "I don't know anything"?

If she knows about the witchbomb, and she *must*, then either she is against QB or needs to be killed, frankly.

More specifically, your assertion that saying magic made us won't help and will only tell her that there is something we aren't saying -- no. Suppose we share amnesia, waking up in alley, and knowing about puella magi system. Lack of ID, lack of connectable past. Either it's a wish -- and not ours, clearly -- or a meguca did it. Or QB, but lolno. Magic confirmed. I don't see the harm in saying that it's our working theory.
 
Kaizuki said:
All we have to do is not be certain about it. We "suspect" based on loose evidence -- that's all we have to say. She can buy it or not: we aren't lying, compromising ourselves, or saying anything falsifiable. If she decides there must be more to it -- it's not like there's evidence for her to go find. Knowledge of Homura's powers and Madoka's potential could be used to hypothesize the situation, but the time travel has to be worked out first and that requires help from Kyubey, who knows that Homura 'never' made a contract with him. Compared to the alternative of doing... What? "I don't know anything"?

If she knows about the witchbomb, and she *must*, then either she is against QB or needs to be killed, frankly.

More specifically, your assertion that saying magic made us won't help and will only tell her that there is something we aren't saying -- no. Suppose we share amnesia, waking up in alley, and knowing about puella magi system. Lack of ID, lack of connectable past. Either it's a wish -- and not ours, clearly -- or a meguca did it. Or QB, but lolno. Magic confirmed. I don't see the harm in saying that it's our working theory.
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Sorry, for me this would be the equivalent of asking Mami to pose and making a floating text bubble for Riona to see:



To put it in another way, it's basically saying 'magic was involved', to which I imagine Riona's answer will be 'no duh, stop jerking me around and explain already'.

I'm pretty sure we're gonna tell her about the amnesia, waking up half dead, etc.; that on its own does not a theory make.

Vebyast said:
I vote that we resolve this problem by learning enough from her that we can cast aside these approximate labels in favor of finding and using the higher-dimensional True Name which encodes and encompasses her soul.
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We can use her Witch name. :V

Oh, maybe we should check her Witch name, just because.
 
[X] Kaizuki

Anyone else have a feeling we'd get as far as 'wished into existence' before we suddenly have a crying, clingy, Riona saying 'Thank God' or 'Finally, it was so long' jumping to her own conclusions?
Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Jul 22, 2018 at 7:07 PM, finished with 141288 posts and 3 votes.
  • [X] She knows where witches come from and that the soul gem is the soul, yes?
    [X] Explain your belief that you are a product of a wish. Omit any suspicion of whose wish in particular -- multiple timelines, Madokami, and Madoka's potential should all remain tightly suppressed.
    -[X] Give evidence: no history, sudden appearance, strange knowledge. Omit any mention of personal knowledge (Mami, Homura, etc) but note both general knowledge & specifics of Puella Magi system.
    [X] After whatever immediate questions she has...
    -[X] Drop a summary of current problems on her.
    --[X] Kyubey is eventually going to try to get us killed.
    --[X] There's at least one malignant weirdness around, you don't know much about it except that it's tried to kill at least one person and is screwing with some magics. (Feathers)
    --[X] One of our allies is rejecting her wish and her soul is all kinds of fucked up.
    --[X] Walpurgisnacht arrives Apr. 30, because why not. Arguably the least of our problems, it's "just" a witch.
    [X] You don't know a ton about her, but as long as she's not interested in mass murder you're more than happy to offer her almost whatever she wants in exchange for contribution.
    -[X] You have a system to break, after all.
    [X] I think I'm the result of a Wish. Specifically, some girl wished for something like me, and that just kind of...spontaneously created me. I woke up in an alleyway vomiting blood, no memory of myself other than the name Sabrina, and full knowledge of the Magical Girl system. Then I wished to control Grief. So, in a way, it was like two wishes in one, specifically for this power.
    -[X] I'm not sure if I was originally human, or if I was a Witch turned into a human through a Wish, or whatever. There are no records of my existence before I woke up in that alleyway, and, as you can imagine, a foreigner with white hair, violet eyes, above-average height, no ID or belongings, total amnesia, and no one even trying to look for her doesn't seem to be a natural occurrence in Japan.
    -[X] What can you tell me about my soul? I only know that power copiers can't copy my power.
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Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Jul 22, 2018 at 7:55 PM, finished with 141300 posts and 10 votes.
  • [X] She knows where witches come from and that the soul gem is the soul, yes?
    [X] Explain your belief that you are a product of a wish. Omit any suspicion of whose wish in particular -- multiple timelines, Madokami, and Madoka's potential should all remain tightly suppressed.
    -[X] Give evidence: no history, sudden appearance, strange knowledge. Omit any mention of personal knowledge (Mami, Homura, etc) but note both general knowledge & specifics of Puella Magi system.
    [X] After whatever immediate questions she has...
    -[X] Drop a summary of current problems on her.
    --[X] Kyubey is eventually going to try to get us killed.
    --[X] There's at least one malignant weirdness around, you don't know much about it except that it's tried to kill at least one person and is screwing with some magics. (Feathers)
    --[X] One of our allies is rejecting her wish and her soul is all kinds of fucked up.
    --[X] Walpurgisnacht arrives Apr. 30, because why not. Arguably the least of our problems, it's "just" a witch.
    [X] You don't know a ton about her, but as long as she's not interested in mass murder you're more than happy to offer her almost whatever she wants in exchange for contribution.
    -[X] You have a system to break, after all.
    [X] Keep in contact with Mami, with Grief.
    [X] Be efficient.
    -[X] Shrug off rudeness, prioritize business over politeness, be blunt if necessary.
    [X] Explain Mami's choice to remain ignorant of facts that terrify many Magical Girls.
    -[X] Ask Riona to confirm her bombed status.
    [X] Information sharing:
    -[X] History; amnesia; knowledge, random and about the system.
    -[X] KB's comment about karma level and experiences.
    --[X] Check Riona's opinion of KB.
    [X] Figure how far to trust Riona.
    -[X] Ask after her motives.
    -[X] Ask what she sees in you.
    [X] If convinced about her having good motives:
    -[X] Share hypothesis about being created by magic. Wholly, by de-Witching, as part of a larger concept...
    -[X] Share how many times you've had the coincidence of being able to help someone in need, in the nick of time.
    [X] I think I'm the result of a Wish. Specifically, some girl wished for something like me, and that just kind of...spontaneously created me. I woke up in an alleyway vomiting blood, no memory of myself other than the name Sabrina, and full knowledge of the Magical Girl system. Then I wished to control Grief. So, in a way, it was like two wishes in one, specifically for this power.
    -[X] I'm not sure if I was originally human, or if I was a Witch turned into a human through a Wish, or whatever. There are no records of my existence before I woke up in that alleyway, and, as you can imagine, a foreigner with white hair, violet eyes, above-average height, no ID or belongings, total amnesia, and no one even trying to look for her doesn't seem to be a natural occurrence in Japan.
    -[X] What can you tell me about my soul? I only know that power copiers can't copy my power.
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I'll go with this, for now.

[] Keep in contact with Mami, with Grief.

[] Be efficient.
-[] Shrug off rudeness, prioritize business over politeness, be blunt if necessary.

[] Explain Mami's choice to remain ignorant of facts that terrify many Magical Girls.
-[] Ask Riona to confirm her bombed status.

[] Information sharing:
-[] History; amnesia; knowledge, random and about the system.
-[] KB's comment about karma level and experiences.
--[] Check Riona's opinion of KB.

[] Figure how far to trust Riona.
-[] Ask after her motives.
-[] Ask what she sees in you.

[] If convinced about her having good motives:
-[] Share hypothesis about being created by magic. Wholly, by de-Witching, as part of a larger concept...
-[] Share how many times you've had the coincidence of being able to help someone in need, in the nick of time.
 
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[x] Onmur

I prefer the subtler address of the infohazard issues, yeah. And the pacing of the conversation.
 
What was the question she asked again?
I would like to know, to see if "I was probably made by a wish because [REASONABLE EVIDENCE]."
Is an answer that will sate her curiousity.
 
... Would Riona notice if we check her Witch's name? ... And would that be a good thing, since it would make it clear we know the Witchbomb. Weird thought.

FromTheFuture said:
What was the question she asked again?
I would like to know, to see if "I was probably made by a wish because [REASONABLE EVIDENCE]."
Is an answer that will sate her curiousity.
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She wants to know what we are, why we can do what we can do.

Firnagzen said:
"What are you?"
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Firnagzen said:
"I've tried, everyone's tried, everyone wants to do what you can do. I can see you're not normal, what's the story?"
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Firnagzen said:
"To be sure your Soul is strange, anyone with half an eye can see that. Fine, let's hear your whys."
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Firnagzen said:
"Now, can y' answer my question? What's the story?"
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Well then if that's what she wants then I was made by a wish probably won't cut it considering we've met another person made by a wish before, and her soul probably isn't strange like ours.
 
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