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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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We should be more mindful of the phrasing.

There is more than one secret we are not telling Sayaka for her own good, and even more than one that is relevent to her.

But we phrase our answer as if we are only holding the witchbomb as our final card to play, and that could be seen as dishonest by Sayaka when she finds out we have even more secrets.
 
Madou Sutegobana said:
We should be more mindful of the phrasing.

There is more than one secret we are not telling Sayaka for her own good, and even more than one that is relevent to her.

But we phrase our answer as if we are only holding the witchbomb as our final card to play, and that could be seen as dishonest by Sayaka when she finds out we have even more secrets.
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Something like...

[z]I can think of two I can share without breaking anybody else's secrets. Not over telepathy though. I'll give you the disclaimer after school in person. This is not the kind of thing to be processed while multitasking or discussed over telepathy.

The two I'm thinking of are the witchbomb and apocalypsebomb.
 
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What about the metabomb?

@Onmur I think the fact that Mami has chosen not to know this needs to be stated much earlier, so that Sayaka doesn't think that Sabrina's been dishonest with her girlfriend this whole time.
 
Shadowhisker said:
Are we gonna tell Mom that Sayaka brought this up? Probably best to let her know.

Otherwise, I like this vote.
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Later, I guess, so we don't do it through telepathy.

The Narrator said:
@Onmur I think the fact that Mami has chosen not to know this needs to be stated much earlier, so that Sayaka doesn't think that Sabrina's been dishonest with her girlfriend this whole time.
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Fair point.

Can't quite make it flow, since I want the first point to be wholly about "my Ojou's life is in your hands", but hopefully this works.

[X] Funny she should ask. We just asked Homura about sharing with her.
[X] Stop searching. Sit down. Use Grief Fog to make sure KB isn't around.

[X] Serious talk. You can't emphazise enough how serious.

[X] Explain informational hazards.
-[X] The need for secrecy.
-[X] The risks.
--[X] What happens when someone finds out. How different people can react, and how difficult it's to predict who can handle what.
-[X] Use your experience with Mami as an example.

[X] Explain there's another truth that's far, far worse.
-[X] First and foremost: If you share this with Sayaka, you're putting Mami's life in her hands.
--[X] Mami must not know. It would kill her. Her and many others. Let that sink in.
--[X] If necessary, clarify Mami chose to not know.
-[X] Learning this would affect Sayaka:
--[X] It would change her outlook in life, like it changed Homura's and Niko's.
--[X] She would need to keep it secret 24/7, never let is slip in anger, not talk about it with anyone, not even Madoka, even if she thinks she's talking with others who know, and always take measures to ensure privacy if she must talk about it.

[X] So it's not about whether she should know, but rather about whether she wants to risk knowing.
-[X] Explain how you offered this knowledge to Mami, and Niko to Kazumi. How they decided to not know.
-[X] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing this, but you are making her the same offer.
-[X] Ask her to not decide just yet. Think about it.

[X] Reassure Sayaka.
-[X] If she decides to know, you'll trust her. You'll get her main body in a Privacy Sphere or timestop and tell her everything.
-[X] If she decides to not know, you won't think any less of her.
-[X] Witch Hunt?
 
Onmur said:
[X] Funny she should ask. We just asked Homura about sharing with her.
[X] Stop searching. Sit down. Use Grief Fog to make sure KB isn't around.

[X] Serious talk. You can't emphazise enough how serious.

[X] Explain informational hazards.
-[X] The need for secrecy.
-[X] The risks.
--[X] What happens when someone finds out. How different people can react, and how difficult it's to predict who can handle what.
-[X] Use your experience with Mami as an example.

[X] Explain there's another truth that's far, far worse.
-[X] First and foremost: If you share this with Sayaka, you're putting Mami's life in her hands.
--[X] Mami must not know. It would kill her. Her and many others. Let that sink in.
-[X] Learning this would affect Sayaka:
--[X] It would change her outlook in life, like it changed Homura's and Niko's.
--[X] She would need to keep it secret 24/7, never let is slip in anger, not talk about it with anyone, not even Madoka, even if she thinks she's talking with others who know, and always take measures to ensure privacy if she must talk about it.

[X] So it's not about whether she should know, but rather about whether she wants to risk knowing.
-[X] Explain how you offered this knowledge to Mami, and Niko to Kazumi. How they decided to not know.
-[X] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing this, but you are making her the same offer.
-[X] Ask her to not decide just yet. Think about it.

[X] Reassure Sayaka.
-[X] If she decides to know, you'll trust her. You'll get her main body in a Privacy Sphere or timestop and tell her everything.
-[X] If she decides to not know, you won't think any less of her.
-[X] Witch Hunt?
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We can condense this a good bit, and omit anything that would hint at the nature of the infohazard we're describing. Like, "there's another truth that's far far worse." Also, do what we can to placate Sayaka's usefulness issues in relation to the matter.

And, well... Some tweaking.

Yellow content is new. Other stuff is condensed, 234 words down from 300 words. Probably should cut this into two posts and halve the vote or something.

[X] Funny she should ask. We just asked Homura about sharing with her.
[X] Stop searching. This is more important. Make sure KB isn't around.
[X] Sayaka should make sure her other self doesn't telegraph anything. You're in no hurry, and you can pause at any time that's necessary.
-[X] Nothing you're going to discuss here gets related to anyone. You'll elaborate as you go.
[X] Broadly explain the concept of an infohazard. It's a little bit like Heresy, except a lot worse.
[X] Mami and, you're told, six of seven Pleiades have declined this information.
-[X] This discussion is about whether Sayaka wants this information, not whether she should be told it. And you're going to make her take until at least tomorrow to think about it.

[X] Hammer on these lines at length and in variation until Sayaka is appropriately cognizant:
-[X] Infohazards are, obviously, a responsibility. You don't talk about them, slip up with them, confide in your best friend about them: that kills people. That is a permanent burden, and it's not a fun one: it's working a job 24/7. No alcohol.
-[X] Infohazards hurt. She's low risk and in special circumstances: it'd probably only permanently change her outlook on life for the worse. Normal consequences of exposure include psychoses, insanity, horrible death, sudden homicidal actions: no matter what, it will make her world a much more horrible place.

[X] Stress that she doesn't need this information to be incredibly helpful: also stress that you're not just saying this to try to dissuade her. There are upsides and downsides to both options, but it's an infohazard: you can't discuss the upsides to knowing without exposing her. You will say that none of them are fun.
-[X] Regardless of her decision, you hope to enlist her as a courier for related problems. Routinely being more than a few minutes from Mitakihara is unacceptable for the foreseeable future, but with teleportation you hope to stretch that definition.

[X] If she decides she wants to know, you'll explain everything and then you won't let her go anywhere alone for a short while -- probably buy her ice cream. Basic observation period that'll double as Q&A. Don't want her leaving and then going crazy.
-[X] This will be a permanently standing offer. You should also note that there is some -- very small -- chance of exposure in the course of everyday life. If it happens, she'll know -- she should ask for help immediately.
-[X] Hug the stuffing out of her. She's a good friend, has a great heart, and you're glad to have her on the team.
 
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Firnagzen said:
See, you can do tact. On occasion.
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Sabrina, your main weapon is literally a war hammer.

Actually, is it a war hammer? Which type of hammer is it anyway?
Firnagzen said:
"And I get the impression they're kind of dangerous secrets," Sayaka says, sounding like she's working through some thoughts as she speaks.

"You're not wrong," you allow.

"Anything I should know?" she asks.
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I wonder how she feels about fish and/or swimming; we should see if we can make a mecha out of enchantments with her; give it a nice tail, make it water proof, and you have a diving suit armor golem right there.

Edit: on a side note; do Witch Seeds that attach themselves to a Grief enchantment push themselves upward when they push that Grief downward? Because i was thinking that we could attach ourself to that sort of enchantment if they did in order to get some more usable limbs then the sort of "crush cars with no tactic feedback" one setting strength that we normally have with direct Grief control.
 
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I don't think that we should declare it as a certainty that finding out would kill Mami. There are three timelines we know of where it drives her to take her own life (I count Tetris as a form of suicide), and one where it doesn't (Oriko Magica).


Marcus.D.Basterd said:
Actually, is it a war hammer? Which type of hammer is it anyway?
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It's a warhammer. An actual functional warhammer with armor-penetrating spike, not a D&D "block on a stick" warhammer. There's fan art of it on the first page.
 
mCooperative said:
This. Also, some of it is, I think, keeping it as unclear as possible to Kyubey exactly what we've told whom. Sure, sure, it knows we know shit, and that Homura knows shit. Sure, it knows we talk with people about the Witchbomb in some capacity. It may even know that Homura is a timecycling timeguca. (Did we ever get an answer as to how it originally knew that Homura had timestop, well enough to go spreading the word about it? Because that's a security leak right there, or else an indication that the Incubators have some capabilities we weren't expecting.)
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It had to have been those early conversations in timestop that revealed what Homura's power was. Instantly appearing in a different position to gain a tactical advantage can be interpreted as teleporting, but asking to speak with us then instantly shifting slightly having already had the entire conversation? There's not much else that could be.
 
[x]Onmur

I don't think she'd take it, but I think we should give her a chance not to know nonetheless. I'm leaning toward Onmur's because I don't think there's much need to know the witchbomb. Though qb might prove me wrong.
 
mmm... I like Kaizuki's vote, it sound that it speaks to Sayaka instead than at her, but part of me thinks it's necessary to tell her about the nature of the infohazard, the "there's another truth that's far far worse" serves the prupose of potraying how bad the infohazard is, alternatively if she thinks the infohazard can be about anything, she can end up imagining things that are far off an equally as bad and maybe that will make her more curious about it (?)

Also:

Kaizuki said:
[X] Stress that she doesn't need this information to be incredibly helpful: also stress that you're not just saying this to try to dissuade her. There are upsides and downsides to both options, but it's an infohazard: you can't discuss the upsides to knowing without exposing her. You will say that none of them are fun.
-[X] Regardless of her decision, you hope to enlist her as a courier for related problems. Routinely being more than a few minutes from Mitakihara is unacceptable for the foreseeable future, but with teleportation you hope to stretch that definition.
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Doesn't the last paragraph defeat the purpose of the former?

Unrelated, in the maybe unlikely case Sayaka choses not to know, should we warn her not to listen to Kyubey specifically?
 
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The lichbomb clearly didn't do a sufficient job of demonstrating to the girls just what a fucking monster Kyubey is, since Sayaka went ahead and contracted anyway, so that might be something that we need to reiterate in stronger terms in the future.
 
Ernest352 said:
Doesn't the last paragraph defeat the purpose of the former?
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Can you elaborate a little bit? Or, I suppose I should...

Privacy spheres, telling Sayaka "this is stuff you shouldn't listen to," it's not a discussion of the subject matter.

If any of those lines answered your issue that's awesone, otherwise, uh, I'm sorry I'm not seeing it but could you specify plz <3
 
[x] Funny, you and Homura were just talking about that.
-[x] Homura thinks that telling Sayaka is too dangerous. She thinks it'll destroy Sayaka and that Sayaka will take everyone with her.
-[x] You think that Sayaka's Wish to be Useful will give her the strength she needs.

Sayaka rises to challenges. Dare her to survive it.

[x] Tell Sayaka to take a bathroom break or something.
-[x] Bet her a bucket of ice cream that she has to claim food poisoning and take the rest of the day off.
-[x] Implement privacy sphere if Sayaka thinks it'll work. If it'd cut her off, just take security measures - no coobs allowed.

Secrecy. Get her out of the classroom.

[x] Explain the stakes. Pull no punches.
-[x] If Sayaka tells Mami, she'll probably try to commit suicide.
-[x] If Sayaka tells Madoka, Makoda Wishes then commits suicide, Homura possibly kills Sayaka in grief-stricken revenge and then commits suicide, and then everyone probably dies.
-[x] Sayaka will have to keep this from everyone, especially her friends. You, Homura, Oriko, Nadia, and Niko are it. She will have some of the same secrets that you've been laboring under so long. Can she handle that?
-[x] Does Sayaka understand how serious this is?

Sayaka rises to challenges.

[x] Explain why you're taking this risk: It's worth it. Sayaka Wished to be useful. This is the best thing she could possibly do. The responsibility of holding this secret is what she wanted to bear.

Sayaka rises to challenges.

[x] Give Sayaka the last chance to back out, same offer you give everyone else.

Because that's what we do.
 
Vebyast said:
[x] Funny, you and Homura were just talking about that.
-[x] Homura thinks that telling Sayaka is too dangerous. She thinks it'll destroy Sayaka and that Sayaka will take everyone with her.
-[x] You think that Sayaka's Wish to be Useful will give her the strength she needs.

Sayaka rises to challenges. Dare her to survive it.

[x] Tell Sayaka to take a bathroom break or something.
-[x] Bet her a bucket of ice cream that she has to claim food poisoning and take the rest of the day off.
-[x] Implement privacy sphere if Sayaka thinks it'll work. If it'd cut her off, just take security measures - no coobs allowed.

Secrecy. Get her out of the classroom.

[x] Explain the stakes. Pull no punches.
-[x] If Sayaka tells Mami, she'll probably try to commit suicide.
-[x] If Sayaka tells Madoka, Makoda Wishes then commits suicide, Homura possibly kills Sayaka in grief-stricken revenge and then commits suicide, and then everyone probably dies.
-[x] Sayaka will have to keep this from everyone, especially her friends. You, Homura, Oriko, Nadia, and Niko are it. She will have some of the same secrets that you've been laboring under so long. Can she handle that?
-[x] Does Sayaka understand how serious this is?

Sayaka rises to challenges.

[x] Explain why you're taking this risk: It's worth it. Sayaka Wished to be useful. This is the best thing she could possibly do. The responsibility of holding this secret is what she wanted to bear.

Sayaka rises to challenges.

[x] Give Sayaka the last chance to back out, same offer you give everyone else.

Because that's what we do.
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We could certainly do this but I do think I'd rather make a serious exploration of the consequences for Sayaka.

I dunno. Actually fucking this up would be pretty hard, I feel like.

You are right on the money about rising to challenges though. It's why it's crucial to explore everything she could fuck up and what the consequences would be and how big a burden the whole thing will constitute.
 
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"So...you and Homura have got a lot of secrets, right?" Sayaka asks.

"... you could say that, yeah," you say.

"And I get the impression they're kind of dangerous secrets," Sayaka says, sounding like she's working through some thoughts as she speaks.

"You're not wrong," you allow.

"Anything I should know?" she asks.
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[X] There is something you should discuss, yes.
-[X] Stop searching. Sit down. Use Grief Fog to make sure KB isn't around. Full serious mode.

[X] There is a secret. It's an infohazard. It remains a secret to puella society, because almost every magical girl who learns it shortly thereafter dies from their soul filling with despair. It's that bad.
-[x] If you share this with Sayaka, you're putting Mami's life in her hands. Mami must not know. It would almost certainly kill her.
-[X] Learning this would affect Sayaka:
--[X] It would change her outlook in life, like it changed Homura's and Niko's.
--[X] She would need to keep it secret 24/7, never let it slip in anger, not talk about it with anyone, not even Madoka, even if she thinks she's talking with others who know, and always take measures to ensure privacy if she must talk about it.

[X] So it's not about whether she should know, but rather about whether she wants to risk knowing.
-[X] Explain how you offered this knowledge to Mami, and Niko to Kazumi. How they decided to not know.
-[X] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing this, but you are making her the same offer.
-[X] Ask her to not decide just yet. Think about it.

[X] Reassure Sayaka.
-[X] If she decides to know, you'll trust her. You'll get her main body in a Privacy Sphere or timestop and tell her everything.
-[X] If she decides to not know, you won't think any less of her.
-[X] Witch Hunt?

Edit of @Onmur 's vote. I think Kai's doesn't quite take the right approach - it tries to directly disuade Sayaka instead of just presenting the consequences, and I don't think that'll play well with Sayaka.
 
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The Narrator said:
The lichbomb clearly didn't do a sufficient job of demonstrating to the girls just what a fucking monster Kyubey is, since Sayaka went ahead and contracted anyway, so that might be something that we need to reiterate in stronger terms in the future.
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In all fairness, there's some level of existing context for doing the phylactery thing and taking the demerit/doing a self sacrifice in the name of Doing Justice. The Lichbomb is awful, but its real push is that it demonstrates Cubes values the utility of meguca powers and lich advantages over informed consent. While that's awful in a number of ways, particularly in this cultural context, that utility-over-consent thing is also, I'm pretty sure, a thing that society has kinda trained us to expect from those in power. The Soul Gem thing itself is not, strictly speaking, a death sentence if it seems that's all that's been done. Your metaphysical bits have been shuffled into a new housing. You can still live your life, it's not gonna kill you, it's just that Kyubey did a severe violation of your right to exist as a single contiguous unit, and your right to make informed decisions about your own existence.

It's not that new, is what I'm saying. It's awful, and the unverifiable "ah yes we're human-resources-ing you now to stave off The Heat Death long after your species will probably be gone" is awful, and the whole thing shits on the idea of informed consent. But history, past and present, has plenty of that, people-wise. And the idea of taking that chunk of the system and trying to reclaim and repurpose it to Do Good, willfully, deliberately, by your own choice? That's not really so strange at all. (For other meguca, from places where there isn't as much an emphasis on a whole and contiguous body-and-soul, I imagine it's even less of an issue, beyond the "dude tell us first, that's sketchy as fuck and removing my soul without telling me is creepy as hell" thing.)

So- the Lichbomb on its own won't always be enough to dissuade people with goals, even knowing how Cubes deceives people.

But the Witchbomb is another story- the fact that becoming a meguca was until now and probably still is for most, a literal death sentence, and moreover, also a condemnation that you'll likely be transformed into killer-of-people, and destroyer of all that you were trying to save, destroyer of all that Doing Good that you'd wanted to do?

People can live with the equivalent of someone mucking around with their internal organs without telling them in order to give them superpowers, even if it's so they can fight someone else's war. People cannot live with death. And generally have a pretty hard time with the destruction of everything they've fought for, too.


... so basically, dissuading contractees is going to become a very interesting job, once we've actually got de-witching down properly.
 
Trying to refine and franken-votes but it takes me so long and I like Redshirt's vote up there and hope it will only improve over time. :p

[X] Redshirt Army

What I had so far said:
[X] Funny she should ask. We just asked Homura about sharing with her.
[X] Stop searching. Sit down. Make sure KB isn't around.

[X] Warn her, this will be heavy.

[X] Explain informational hazards.
-[X] The need for secrecy.
--[X] To start with, she can't tell anybody any of this. Unless she wants to put them in danger.
-[X] The risks.
--[X] The consequences.
--[X] How different people can react, and how difficult it's to predict who can handle what.
-[X] Use your experience with Mami as an example.

[X] Explain there's another truth that's far, far worse.
-[X] First and foremost: If you share this with Sayaka, you're putting Mami's life in her hands.
--[X] Mami must not know. It would kill her. Her and many others. Let that sink in.
-[X] Learning this would affect Sayaka:
--[X] It would change her outlook in life, like it changed Homura's and Niko's.
--[X] She would need to keep it secret 24/7, never let is slip in anger, not talk about it with anyone, not even Madoka, even if she thinks she's talking with others who know, and always take measures to ensure privacy if she must talk about it.

[X] It's not about whether she should know, rather about whether she wants to risk knowing.
-[X] You offered this knowledge to Mami, and Niko to Kazumi. They decided to not know.
-[X] Both Homura and you are scared of sharing this, but you are making her the same offer.
-[X] Ask her to not decide just yet. Think about it.

[X] Reassure Sayaka.
-[X] She doesn't need to know, and you won't think any less of her if that's her choice.
-[X] If she decides to know, you'll trust her, tell her everything, and answer any questions she has.

[X] De-stress hugs + Witch Hunt?
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