Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
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- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
blast flame
How far will we go if it means lighting the way?
- Location
- Perth, Australia
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I'm against a promise to never witchbomb Madoka period. Too absolute and I plan to eventually overturn the masquerade completely and fix the magical girl system so that every magical girl contractee knows the details - that has to involve knowledge of witches getting released at some point.
At the very least we should tag on some "without Homu's consent" tag. Might be a potential problem tho. But I think another option is to say that we'd never witchbomb Madoka without first witchbombing Mami and she damn well knows how reluctant we are to do that - serves as a safety net for Homura until Mami is stable enough for us to do that which will be quite a while.
At the very least we should tag on some "without Homu's consent" tag. Might be a potential problem tho. But I think another option is to say that we'd never witchbomb Madoka without first witchbombing Mami and she damn well knows how reluctant we are to do that - serves as a safety net for Homura until Mami is stable enough for us to do that which will be quite a while.
- Location
- Florida
I think I want to acquiesce to Homura. I usually see a tendency to claim we listen to their opinions but keep pushing little by little to get our way regardless.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Tramp jokes. Ugh.
- Location
- Illinois
A proposal -- one with too many words that would need to be summarized a fair bit. For consideration only, really.
[X] Tone: quiet. We know too much about Homura to ever get upset at her, really.
[X] Telling Madoka about the nature of witches alone -- the loops are another thing entirely -- would be an awful idea, and you'd rather like to keep her away from it. There are conflicting sub-goals involved, though.
[X] You'll explain what you've done so far first, and then why, if that's alright?
-[X] So far, the way we've addressed the possibility of Mami being exposed has been to inform her that there's "dangerous knowledge" out there, loosely explain some of the probable consequences of learning it, and ask her if she wanted to know. She said no.
--[X] We'd do the same thing with Sayaka, except we know perfectly well that she'd say she wanted to know.
-[X] The entire point is a hedge -- by being open about the fact that we're keeping secrets, being willing to share them, and being explicit about why we don't want to share them, it (hopefully) prevents the Incubator from attacking from that angle. And, of course, if anyone could be brought to anger over secrets... it'd be Sayaka. She already was, once.
--[X] Madoka, Mami, and Hitomi are much lower risk. Mami just wants happiness; Madoka just wants others' happiness; Hitomi is... Hitomi. Sayaka wants justice, and it makes her the group's weak point.
---[X] As long as Madoka and Hitomi aren't magical girls and aren't thinking about contracting, talking about the existence of "dangerous knowledge" at all with them is... anywhere between unnecessary and contract-baiting. In Mami's case... you were done keeping secrets of your own from her and that was that.
---[X] But Sayaka... the Incubator wants Madoka to contract, not die -- and so splitting Sayaka off and targeting her is the obvious, classic course of action for it. But there's only so many ways it can manage that. Mami being alive and friends with the two of you negates most of them and Sayaka already knows most of the secrets that would anger her. Explaining the nature of witches would close out that route of attack entirely, for a variety of reasons.
----[X] The question is whether that's worth Sayaka knowing about the nature of witches. If it keeps Sayaka alive and well you've figured that it probably is.
[X] Tone: quiet. We know too much about Homura to ever get upset at her, really.
[X] Telling Madoka about the nature of witches alone -- the loops are another thing entirely -- would be an awful idea, and you'd rather like to keep her away from it. There are conflicting sub-goals involved, though.
[X] You'll explain what you've done so far first, and then why, if that's alright?
-[X] So far, the way we've addressed the possibility of Mami being exposed has been to inform her that there's "dangerous knowledge" out there, loosely explain some of the probable consequences of learning it, and ask her if she wanted to know. She said no.
--[X] We'd do the same thing with Sayaka, except we know perfectly well that she'd say she wanted to know.
-[X] The entire point is a hedge -- by being open about the fact that we're keeping secrets, being willing to share them, and being explicit about why we don't want to share them, it (hopefully) prevents the Incubator from attacking from that angle. And, of course, if anyone could be brought to anger over secrets... it'd be Sayaka. She already was, once.
--[X] Madoka, Mami, and Hitomi are much lower risk. Mami just wants happiness; Madoka just wants others' happiness; Hitomi is... Hitomi. Sayaka wants justice, and it makes her the group's weak point.
---[X] As long as Madoka and Hitomi aren't magical girls and aren't thinking about contracting, talking about the existence of "dangerous knowledge" at all with them is... anywhere between unnecessary and contract-baiting. In Mami's case... you were done keeping secrets of your own from her and that was that.
---[X] But Sayaka... the Incubator wants Madoka to contract, not die -- and so splitting Sayaka off and targeting her is the obvious, classic course of action for it. But there's only so many ways it can manage that. Mami being alive and friends with the two of you negates most of them and Sayaka already knows most of the secrets that would anger her. Explaining the nature of witches would close out that route of attack entirely, for a variety of reasons.
----[X] The question is whether that's worth Sayaka knowing about the nature of witches. If it keeps Sayaka alive and well you've figured that it probably is.
- Location
- Illinois
The thing is, witchbombing Madoka is an awful idea -- it makes Madoka want to help people. Loop bombing her does the reverse but is just not something Homura can bring herself to do or contemplate. But the big goal of witchbombing Sayaka is to protect Sayaka from the Incubator's machinations, and in doing so to protect Madoka. Homura is conflating all of this and we need to clarify it for her, I think.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
Eh... It seems like a trustworthy enough catgirl.
[X] Kaizuki
[X] Kaizuki
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Eh, I think Homura might be right here.
Sabrina can finish outlying her arguments and telling that she is not going to Witchbomb Madoka no matter what, then maybe quietly back off?
Right now, Sayaka can't really do anything to help us. At least, not anything Homura, Niko and Nadia aren't able to do.
Maybe later, when our glorious dream of Mikiel is realized?
There is also an issue of trust, buuuuuut meh. Those girls who know about Witches and don't go violently insane are a happy exception. Not a rule.
Sabrina can finish outlying her arguments and telling that she is not going to Witchbomb Madoka no matter what, then maybe quietly back off?
Right now, Sayaka can't really do anything to help us. At least, not anything Homura, Niko and Nadia aren't able to do.
Maybe later, when our glorious dream of Mikiel is realized?
There is also an issue of trust, buuuuuut meh. Those girls who know about Witches and don't go violently insane are a happy exception. Not a rule.
Battleship_Fusou
(The Itty-Bitty Pretty Battleship Kitty)
- Location
- Surigao Strait
I think bowing to Momura's opinion is best here. We don't need to tell them, as much as we'd like to, and listening to her on this subject is an excellent way to help show that we appreciate her views. We really do bulldoze a bit too much I feel.
The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
I disagree. Madoka already wants to help people and thinks that a wish or contract will do that without any idea that it will actually do far more harm than good.
In canon, the witchbomb immediately changes Madoka's stance from "I'll make a wish to make Sayaka human again" to "FUCK YOU, KYUBEY" until the final episode. She doesn't even consider making a wish to turn Sayaka's witch back into a human, because she finally understands the consequences.
My concern with witchbombing Sayaka or Madoka is that I'm not sure that they could keep from blurting it out in front of Mami. Neither of them is good at compartmentalizing.
- Location
- Bowling Green
Well the end goal is to make Aurora
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
I see your transparent ploy to get Homura's approval.
But would Homura?
[X] Channel Kirika for a moment. Reassure Homura. She doesn't need to convince us; we know Witchbombing Madoka is an awful idea and that it would hurt Homura.
-[X] We were wrong to Lichbomb Mami, and we hurt her far worse than we had thought. We're not making this mistake again.
[X] Quieter tone. Explain how you would do this.
-[X] Like you did with Mami, and Niko with Kazumi, you would explain the existance of an 'infohazard', thoroughly explain its dangerous nature, and let her think about it for at least a day before deciding.
-[X] The Pleiades' example helps: Whether Sayaka decides to know or not to, she'll know there's others in the same position as her, which should help her not feel isolated.
[X] Be Reassuring-Warm-Brina.
-[X] Promise to not do any of this without Homura's (and Niko's) consent.
[X] Sayaka
-[X] Vote in abeyance.
-[X] Take safety measures and record the Hunt?
-[X] Give her today's Kyouko's payment.
[X] Nadia.
-[X] Ask about Riona, and her not having contacted us yet.
Vote breakdown:
- MAKE SURE HOMU KNOWS WE'RE NOT GONNA WITCHBOMB DOKA. Caps for emphasis, not yelling.
Maybe one day in the future Witchbombing Doka will become the right course of action, but that doesn't matter now. Just reassure Homu.
- Explain how much care we would put into Witchbombing Sayaka. Mami and Pleiades as supporting examples for no-Witchbomb cases.
- Promise to not include new members into the Witchbombed club without the Witchbombed club's consent.
- Sayaka in abeyance. But also record the Hunt to Hitomi can see?
- Hey Nadia.
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
Wait! There is a missing Social, guys. If we meant what we were saying to Homura last evening, what do we want to do? Reflect upon what her (numerous) issues may interact with first?
The best way to continue from here is to :
* Emphasize that we are expecting the witchbomb will occur to Sayaka at some point regardless, with growing certainty.
* Ask Homura to find a way to protect Madoka from either that future, or the future where we offer the witchbomb to Sayaka on our terms. How can Sayaka learn to not influence Madoka to contract, and what does Homura need to see from Sayaka? If Homura works on the problem, she will know we are requiring her aide, and she has some control.
* Our sub-goal is to protect Sayaka. Ask Homura how we could mentally prepare Sayaka if she learns the truth about witches before we tell her.
It is both correct and beneficial to honor Homura's agency in an honest way. Present our goals, our reasoning and info. Then ask for her help.
In fact, you could get her started on contingency thinking. What if Kyuubey decided to drop the bomb on either of them? What if Madoka learned this from some other girl not in our influence?
For now, we want to keep Madoka out of it too. Circumstances will change, and our path to save her will change along with that.
Sayaka is going to be in harm's way soon.
Hitomi's meaningful interaction is how well she can discipline her sharing of information. Can we level her up in this, and make her a better support muggle?
The best way to continue from here is to :
* Emphasize that we are expecting the witchbomb will occur to Sayaka at some point regardless, with growing certainty.
* Ask Homura to find a way to protect Madoka from either that future, or the future where we offer the witchbomb to Sayaka on our terms. How can Sayaka learn to not influence Madoka to contract, and what does Homura need to see from Sayaka? If Homura works on the problem, she will know we are requiring her aide, and she has some control.
* Our sub-goal is to protect Sayaka. Ask Homura how we could mentally prepare Sayaka if she learns the truth about witches before we tell her.
It is both correct and beneficial to honor Homura's agency in an honest way. Present our goals, our reasoning and info. Then ask for her help.
In fact, you could get her started on contingency thinking. What if Kyuubey decided to drop the bomb on either of them? What if Madoka learned this from some other girl not in our influence?
For now, we want to keep Madoka out of it too. Circumstances will change, and our path to save her will change along with that.
Sayaka is going to be in harm's way soon.
Hitomi's meaningful interaction is how well she can discipline her sharing of information. Can we level her up in this, and make her a better support muggle?
SolipsistSerpent
Endlessly Devouring
Hm... Telling Sayaka will make keeping this secret from Mami harder. Sayaka doesn't seem like she'd handle the secret keeping part of that well.
On the other hand, we should maybe be building towards telling Mami, anyway. Because I don't want a hostile magical girl informing her and we're attracting a lot of attention at this point.
On the other hand, we should maybe be building towards telling Mami, anyway. Because I don't want a hostile magical girl informing her and we're attracting a lot of attention at this point.
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Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
A Witchbomb is basically a death sentence for Mami.
Maybe she could make it through with extreme levels of limpeting, but um... this is the kind of situation where we actually want to get de-Witching first. However long that takes, even if it takes years and becomes a post quest project for Sabrina to fulfill.
I think protecting Mami from being Witchbombed is the only option until then.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
On de-Witching...
I guess our next step is to try and communicate with Aurora; then perhaps to visit Anri (tomorrow?), talk with her about life, cleanse Yuuri and tell Anri about happy thoughts. She'll probably spend every breathing second trying to de-Witch Yuuri.
And on the communcation grief hax thing, before attempting to let Aurora use it, I think we should try to test it on ourselves and try our best to misuse it, see if whatever we've build could be used wrong. Let's say we make a 'feelings into words' grief hax thing, but that it turns out you can also use it to transfer your feelings to someone else. Weak example, but we don't want to get mind blasted with Grief again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I guess our next step is to try and communicate with Aurora; then perhaps to visit Anri (tomorrow?), talk with her about life, cleanse Yuuri and tell Anri about happy thoughts. She'll probably spend every breathing second trying to de-Witch Yuuri.
And on the communcation grief hax thing, before attempting to let Aurora use it, I think we should try to test it on ourselves and try our best to misuse it, see if whatever we've build could be used wrong. Let's say we make a 'feelings into words' grief hax thing, but that it turns out you can also use it to transfer your feelings to someone else. Weak example, but we don't want to get mind blasted with Grief again. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
- Location
- Germany
You want to use an experimental treatment that could potentially screw up later attempts on Yuuri? Bad idea. Our griefbending can't reverse magic infusion, so it's permanent. For all we know, happy magic just leads to a witch with a drive to spread happiness.
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
/muffled 'my name is pinky pie' heard in the distance
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Mmm. I've been thinking. Sorry if anyone pointed it out before, and I'm just parroting them, but
Madoka seems to have these dreams from previous timelines, right?
How big are chances she trusts us because she saw us in a dream? Kinda like Hameru, only... weirder?
Madoka seems to have these dreams from previous timelines, right?
How big are chances she trusts us because she saw us in a dream? Kinda like Hameru, only... weirder?
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I love how Sabrina and Mami just casually have emotional and intimate conversations about themselves and their relationship right in front of their friends without a care in the world, and they all just easily roll with it.
Sabrina and Mami really are the "absurdly cute/adorable couple" of the group.
Sabrina and Mami really are the "absurdly cute/adorable couple" of the group.
SaltyWaffles
I am dissapoint, son
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"You underestimate my brain damage, Walmart Night!"
"What a strange dream..."
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Yeah, exactly like that.
Edit:
Well, I was thinking more of a screwy line-up of black wings, a huge arrow exploding from the sky into Walpurgisnacht and then @Godwinson flying out of the explosion and back in time.
... And QB watching the whole shitstorm and constantly repeating:
"The fuck is happening?"
But yours works too.
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DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
New comers are going to be either confused by it or love it.
or sad Mami Tomoe is taken.
Though *i* still remember when we were all like 'no we can't take advantage!'. The postive feedback looped caused by the thread reflecting Sabrina causing us to squee over WAFF which generates more WAFFy scenes which makes more squees is scary D :
Not the same, actually. Mami knows there's something beyond but decided not to know.
Personally I'd prefer to witchbomb Mami, but only once we're sure she's emotionally ready.
I completely disagree with this. Mami took it hard and still hasn't recovered completely, that's true, but in events where Mami and other meguca's Soul Gems were involved it'd have been was worse if Mami shouldn't know, like in the Plaides' incident Mami forcing her body not to breath to push through the fight and singlehandedly taking over, or understanding how de-gemming a meguca can shut her down without killing her (like when with Akiko)
After she recovers (and Mami is recovering with Sabrina and the othrs who know and share her condition) knowing about the lichbomb can only be helpful.
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