Yes, that's been our biggest obstacle for quite a while. Homura doesn't just need to feel that Madoka has been protected, she has to feel that she protected Madoka. I've seen several translations, so it's any guess about the details; I've seen a couple variations on "to be the one to protect her this time". Either way, if she'd just wished that Madoka could be safe, we'd have been done a long time ago - just tell her that we're here and her job is done, great success.
You have actually prompted me to go looking for concrete translations, though, which raised something interesting that I think we haven't been considering all along:
Article:
"I want to redo my first encounter with Kaname-san. But this time, instead of her protecting me, I want to become strong enough to protect her!"
We may have a hard time with the "become stronger" part of that.
My standing concept for Walpurgisnacht involves lots more moving pieces, and most of them are not powerful fighters. If we use artillery to aid the victory, we need to train the girls helping. Homura is able to train and run a group to do this? Promoting oneself to actual Captain counts as "stronger?" She can still enter the fight, too.
So far as "protect her this time," Sabrina has done everything except that, really. Asking her "how did Sabrina keep Madoka safe today" is obvious. Sabrina did nothing. As a Magical Girl, Sabrina is working hard, at everything else. Homura is the one getting results by not failing. This loop, her record is perfect. It isn't exciting, but that's how one fights Kyuubey. This is how she can stave off Madoka from using her wish. Sabrina fails to be 'perfect' or even 'right' pretty often. Mostly, Sabrina is doing extra stuff that Madoka wants her to do. The only thing that counts towards Homura's Wish is exactly what is happening right now. We give each other Hope. That can't be wrong.
Heavyweight combo. 318 wbrbs, being super specific. Try out the new parts for sanity, please comment.
[X] Homura is stuck in a logical fallacy. Because of her emotions. Engage those emotions, reduce them.
[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
[x] First, continue use soft storytelling tone.
[x] Lead her through it repeatedly, until something sticks or there's a different result, break to vote.
[x] Sabrina repeats affirmations, Acknowledges Homura's well earned agency. Cooperates with Homura's Wish intent.
-[x] Use facts that are positive, offer simple praise, as well as current-time safety phrases. Deflect resistance if needed. Don't use them to "fight."
-[x] Not conducting a logical argument. Keep the pater going.
--[x] Sometimes cast aspersions upon the Incubators.
--[x] Sometimes remark on Madoka's good choices (do not discuss wishing.)
--[x] Sometimes state Homura has caught up to Madoka, kept her promise.
-[x] Sub Goal is to repeat dozens of times over a few hours. Slow enough to not overload her, pay attention.
-[x] leading questions can be mixed in.
--[X] Was there ever a previous timeline when Madoka was safe and happy?
[x] Tone: Absolute, total, beyond the ends of the world certainty. You know this is true.
-[x] Homura is not a failure.
-[x] Right here, right now, Madoka is happy, and safe, and protected. By her.
-[x] If Madoka hadn't met Homura, her life would have been lost or worse.
-[x] No one can dishonor one of your friends with errors like that.
-[x] If Madoka knew everything Homura's done for her, she wouldn't hesitate for an instant to say that Homura is her greatest and best friend.
-[x] Sabrina hasn't guarded Madoka, only Homura could. Sabrina gives support to Homura. Homura is essential to Sabrina.
[x] Conversation goals: get Homura to accept that she has accomplished something positive for Madoka.
[x] Giving each other hope can't be wrong.
Not really speech time. Homura can pause us as many times as she feels, it doesn't hurt our support strategy. Helping her discover a persistent reason to escape her errors is worth any work we must contribute. Our goal isn't contractual agreement. We have to leave behind a change that can keep going.
Adhoc vote count started by Shadowhisker on Apr 25, 2018 at 5:46 AM, finished with 137053 posts and 13 votes.
[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
[x] Tone: Absolute, total, beyond the ends of the world certainty. You know this is true.
-[x] Homura is not a failure. She is not a good for nothing. You won't put up with hearing one of the most amazing people in the world, one of your friends, put themselves down like that.
-[x] Right here, right now, Madoka is happy, and safe, and protected. By her. And if Madoka hadn't met Homura, her life would have been worse for it.
-[x] If Madoka knew everything Homura's done for her, she wouldn't hesitate for an instant to say that Homura is her greatest and best friend.
[x] Conversation goals: Get Homura to a point where it's safe to let her think about all of this.
-[x] Madoka was better off with Homura there, even if Homura hasn't met her own standards of success yet.
[x] Potentially, as needed to accomplish those goals:
-[x] She was put in a nearly impossible situation, and can't blame herself for that. You couldn't have done better, not in her shoes.
--[x] She still kept Mami and Sayaka in her heart to the end, even though they kept falling and taking Madoka with them. She kept trying, which is all anyone could ask.
-[x] You know what Homura's done, and you accept her. You'll believe in her to the end.
--[x] Madoka would too, you're certain of it.
-[x] Only because of Homura is there hope for a better world in the future.
--[x] Striving for a better outcome for everyone is what Madoka would have wanted from her.
-[x] Thank Homura for all she's done - and still is doing - for Madoka, you, and the world.
-[x] Provide tactile support and encouragement to the degree Homura is comfortable with it. [x] Let Homu compose herself before returning to realtime.
[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
[x] Tone: Absolute, total, beyond the ends of the world certainty. You know this is true.
-[x] Homura is not a failure. You won't put up with hearing one of the most amazing people in the world, one of your friends, put themselves down like that.
-[x] Right here, right now, Madoka is happy, and safe, and protected. By her. And if Madoka hadn't met Homura, her life would have been worse for it.
-[x] If Madoka knew everything Homura's done for her, she wouldn't hesitate for an instant to say that Homura is her greatest and best friend.
[x] Conversation goals: get Homura to accept that she has accomplished something positive for Madoka.
[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
[x] Long-term goal: Help Homura recover self-worth by helping her believe that the loops have not failed. In particular:
-[x] Progress was being made on "not being tricked" with every loop, and her Wish last loop was sufficiently well informed.
-[x] Madoka was better off with Homura there, even if Homura wasn't perfectly successful immediately.
[x] Conversation goals: Get Homura to a point where it's safe to let her think about all of this.
[x] Potentially useful points for Brinapilot to deploy as appropriate:
-[x] If Homura had been hurting people, Madoka would have done something about it. She didn't, so she must not think that Homura is hurting people.
-[x] If your knowledge is correct, Madoka asked Homura to go back so everyone didn't end up that way. Madoka wouldn't have asked Homura to hurt people.
-[x] The alternative to the loops was everyone staying dead. Homura would have to try hard to do worse than that.
-[x] Make an analogy to surgical medicine - it hurts, maybe a lot, but it's better than dying of cancer.
-[x] If anything, Homura was giving Madoka hope.
-[x] Homura may not have yet succeeded, but she got everyone here, and that means that Everything Can Be Fixed. Even if Homura had been causing suffering, which you doubt, it can be fixed now, everything will be okay.
-[x] You always find your keys in the last place you look. Homura hasn't succeeded yet, but she's making progress, the same way you rule out "under the couch" or "on the desk" even though you're "failing" to find your keys.
-[x] In one of the possibilities you've seen, Madoka says that Homura has always been her very best friend.
[X] Homura is stuck in a logical fallacy. Because of her emotions. Engage those emotions, reduce them.
[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
[x] First, continue use soft storytelling tone.
[x] Lead her through it repeatedly, until something sticks or there's a different result, break to vote.
[x] Sabrina repeats affirmations, Acknowledges Homura's well earned agency. Cooperates with Homura's Wish intent.
-[x] Use facts that are positive, offer simple praise, as well as current-time safety phrases. Deflect resistance if needed. Don't use them to "fight."
-[x] Not conducting a logical argument. Keep the pater going.
--[x] Sometimes cast aspersions upon the Incubators.
--[x] Sometimes remark on Madoka's good choices (do not discuss wishing.)
--[x] Sometimes state Homura has caught up to Madoka, kept her promise.
-[x] Sub Goal is to repeat dozens of times over a few hours. Slow enough to not overload her, pay attention.
-[x] leading questions can be mixed in.
--[X] Was there ever a previous timeline when Madoka was safe and happy?
[x] Tone: Absolute, total, beyond the ends of the world certainty. You know this is true.
-[x] Homura is not a failure. -[x] Right here, right now, Madoka is happy, and safe, and protected. By her.
-[x] If Madoka hadn't met Homura, her life would have been lost or worse.
-[x] No one can dishonor one of your friends with errors like that.
-[x] If Madoka knew everything Homura's done for her, she wouldn't hesitate for an instant to say that Homura is her greatest and best friend.
-[x] Sabrina hasn't guarded Madoka, only Homura could. Sabrina gives support to Homura. Homura is essential to Sabrina.
[x] Conversation goals: get Homura to accept that she has accomplished something positive for Madoka.
[x] Giving each other hope can't be wrong.
I don't like this: It seems too hasty. We don't exactly know how things will end up after this vote(we're laying quite a bit on Homu here), so I'd rather see what happens before deciding to return to realtime.
On a side note, I've seen some people say we should Witchbomb Sayaka, because of the high chance that she'll get witchbombed as refugees stream in. (some refugees WILL know about the witchbomb, and there's also always the risk that she'll copy a power that'll wind up witchbombing her, and unlike Mami we're not always around her to protect her from a witchbomb) If we want to do this, we should probably discuss the topic with Homura first: I imagine she'd want to know before we take such an action. She probably won't be too happy about it, but we could probably convince her it's for the best. Not saying we should tell Homura about this right now(we're already laying a lot on her), but I figured I'd bring it up in the thread at least. There's been some talk about this in the Discord recently, and considering the occasional complaints I've heard about things being discussed in Discord but not in the thread, I figured I'd bring it up here: even if this isn't exactly the most ideal timing.
When I make edits to my votes, I highlight the changes in colour for ease of comparison by everyone else - digging through a whole vote to see what's different can get really obnoxious.
"You are not a failure," you say, pulling back far enough to smile at her. And here, you can speak with confidence, letting it infuse your voice as you meet her eyes. "You are not a good for nothing. And I'm not going to put up with hearing one of the most amazing people, one of my friends, put herself down like that."
"I'm-" Homura's jaw tightens. Somehow, that seems to focus her, her eyes hardening as she looks back at you. "I'm not amazing."
Focus on entirely the wrong thing, that is.
"I disagree," you say, still smiling. For all her conviction that she's done wrong, well. "Homura, listen to me. Right here, right now, Madoka is happy, safe, and protected. By you. Not me. I help you, but I'm not the one protecting her. If she hadn't met you, her life would have been worse for it."
And the both of you know what would have happened, had Homura not met Madoka. She would have been dead, there and then, facing off against the Queen of Witches. You don't say it out loud. You don't need to, you don't want to remind Homura of it so directly.
Homura looks away, jaw setting.
You brace your hand against her shoulder, smiling warmly. "Homura, look at me?"
She does, violet eyes drawn to yours.
"Madoka is happy. She's safe, and she's protected," you repeat. "Yes, I admit, there are dangers that may come. But that she's safe, that she's protected? That really is thanks to you, Homura. You were put in an unimaginable situation. Nearly impossible, and... you can't blame yourself for the circumstances. Not when you're here, today."
"You know what I did," she whispers, gaze dropping from yours again.
"I know," you say. "I couldn't have done better, in your shoes. I know what you've done, and I accept you. I believe in you, to the end. And I know Madoka would say the same."
Homura shakes her head mutely.
"If Madoka knew everything you've done for her, she wouldn't hesitate for a second to say that you were her greatest and best friend," you murmur. "I know it, Homura. She would."
And she did, that once upon a never that will never be. Not if you have anything to say about it.
"I-" Homura's breath hitches. "I don't deserve it."
"You've made her life better," you say. "You haven't made it perfect. You haven't hit your own standards of success, but you've made her life better. You're making progress. You try so hard, even for Mami and Sayaka, even though they keep falling."
You gesture at your friends, frozen in the timestop, and you give Mami a smile. She can't see it, but still. You've... you've come to rely on her. She supports you as much as you support her, and it's comforting.
"You didn't give up on them, even when it seemed impossible," you say. "You kept trying, and you kept getting closer."
Homura shakes her head, tired and slow.
"Homura, I think the world of you," you murmur. "I really do. You've been fighting for so long. Everything you've done, everything you're still doing, for Madoka, for me, for the world... thank you, for all of it. Just... fighting for a better outcome for everyone is you Madoka would have wanted from you."
She swallows hard, looking away.
You smile at her still, gently clasping her hand between both of yours. She's trembling, still. Just a little. She stills, slowly, and draws in a breath, facing you with renewed determination... before her eyes drop from yours again.
"I'm fighting for her," she whispers. "I... if we win. It doesn't matter."
Her eyes flicker back up to you again, for a split second.
"Thank you," she whispers.
[] Anything else to tell Homura?
[] Write-in
-[X] Relax. Comment:
--[X] Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
--[X] Raiding Yakuza for (4D) pocket money.
[X] O&K.
-[X] Probably a 'random' apartment.
-[X] You don't know the Kure adults. Could be a bad idea.
[X] Everyone.
-[X] Explain your discomfort when dropping heavy topics. Ask if there's anything you can do to make it less stressful?
-[X] Offer to watch the spar video.
[X] Put in an order for the tracking devices.
[X] If there's time, practice enchantment:
-[X] Try using Control Magic...
--[X] On Grief.
--[X] To shape something into a Pocket Brina.
=====
I'd like to get a move on, back to real time and back to things proceeding. Not an absolute injunction, of course, but if possible it'd be nice to wrap it up.
"If Homura knew everything you've done for her, she wouldn't hesitate for a second to say that you were her greatest and best friend," you murmur. "I know it, Homura. She would."
"If Homura knew everything you've done for her, she wouldn't hesitate for a second to say that you were her greatest and best friend," you murmur. "I know it, Homura. She would."
[Q] Talk with Homura about your hugging privileges.
-[Q] Demand from Homura:
--[Q] Right to hug Homura without asking first.
--[Q] Right to hug Homura out of timestop.
--[Q] Right to be hugged by Homura everytime you hug Homura.
--[Q] Right to hug Homura casually like it doesn't have to be a big deal each time.
--[Q] Actually just the full Homura-hugging privileges.
-[Q] Offer Homura:
--[Q] Full Sabrina-hugging privileges.
--[Q] Full Mami-hugging privileges.
-[Q] Promise to not abuse your rights if Homura would grant them to you.
One day something is going to happen and Sabrina is going to turn to Homura and say 'I understand where you are coming from with Madoka... like I understood where it was coming but I didn't UNDERSTAND ... now now I do. [Cue manic laughter]'
Mami: *hits Sabrina on the head* no bad Sabrina no rendering heaven and earth for me. That's Homura's domain, you can ignore space time.
One day something is going to happen and Sabrina is going to turn to Homura and say 'I understand where you are coming from with Madoka... like I understood where it was coming but I didn't UNDERSTAND ... now now I do. [Cue manic laughter]'
Mami: *hits Sabrina on the head* no bad Sabrina no rendering heaven and earth for me. That's Homura's domain, you can ignore space time.
[X] More hugs.
-[X] Re-promise everything will work out.
-[X] Tell Homura she can always come to you if she feels the need to talk about anything... or to hug someone.
You never know.
Man, I feel that vote in abeyance needs to be cut down a bit, and maybe rethought.
I had a thought about Sabrinas ranged combat options.
If she used small bits of real materials, couldn't she basically make a witch based gauss rifle/cannon?
A simplified version would just need to be a tube of grief, transformed into witch material and given the property of rapidly accelerating whatever is inside it.
This could allow her to use simple materials like asphalt for shotgun style blasts as it fragments under the force of being fired, or long range attacks using more durable materials.
