The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
You want us to follow this plan? Explain to us what it is, first.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Well, if it helps, it IS discovers; Homura isn't creating timelines.
It's strongly implied that Homura's potential isn't anything too special and that she actually wished over-budget, so to speak. And Potential can change post-contract, confirmed in Tart Magica.
Madoka's potential changes only when Homura loops in because, again, these timelines existed before Homura interacts with them.
- Location
- Canada
My take is that Homu's potential really isn't that high (remember, she was also a sick girl to begin with), but she gets to cheat via time stop. And she's been a Magical Girl longer than probably anyone else ever has been so she's entirely mastered and can make the most use of what powers she was given.
Most Magical Girls die or turn into Witches before that can happen.
Most Magical Girls die or turn into Witches before that can happen.
- Location
- Illinois
Okay so I'm going to update my vote. This isn't precisely finalized (veb hates the idea of having a "main point" in parentheses after every line and I don't reeeeeeeeeeally blame him for that) but I feel that it should be more... accessible? Yes, accessible. Please tell me if this version improves your understanding of what I want to do this vote as opposed to previous versions.
[X] Standing:
-[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[X] Continuous cleanse.
-[X] If at any point you feel it's correct to do so, give Homura time to compose herself.
-[X] If at any point Homura asserts that regardless of what Madoka feels, she has hurt Madoka, break -- that is indicative that the intended point has been made.
-[X] Try to avoid saying anything like "Madoka dreams about you fighting Walpurgisnacht." It's not relevant to the point you're trying to make.
[X] Madoka's conscious doesn't get fully erased when Homura loops. Enough is carried back for her to judge Homura's actions. The judgement so far has been that Homura is good friend with her best interests at heart. Delivery: swift, serious, as one statement. Get to the "good friend" part quickly to avoid giving Homura nightmares. (Main point: Madoka endorses Homura's actions despite being capable of condemning them instead)
-[X] Provide evidence for the previous line by explaining that the dreams have changed over the course of the loops and that Madoka gets information from previous loops in other ways also (gut instincts etc). (Main point: you're not bullshitting with the previous line. This is verifiable evidence that Madoka gets information from previous loops.)
-[X] If Madoka wanted to give up or felt like she was being hurt by Homura's actions, the information from the previous loops would've reinforced that until Madoka gave up or rejected Homura. (Main point: explanation at length + in detail that Madoka really would react differently than she is/has if she felt that she was being hurt by the loops)
--[X] Instead, the biggest thing being reinforced is Madoka's trust of Homura. (Main point: Madoka has decided + is continuing to decide that Homura is acting in her best interest)
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Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
If "shorter and summarized" is what you've been getting out of my votes, you're missing something important. My votes are not summaries. Rather, I strive for clarity.
Clarity means emphasizing critical points so they're not lost in a flood of indistinguishable but useless detail. Clarity means writing structured explanations with clear direction so everyone knows what we are doing and why. Clarity means wrapping up points into well-defined nuggets so they can be easily digested and worked with independently.
You will note, for example, that I explicitly separate goals from implementations; this is so that we do not miss the forest for the trees, nor the trees for the forest. I direct Brinapilot when the precise points do not matter so much as the fact that those points exist. I remove non-contributing words so that the vote draws more weight from the important words. It is not accidental that some of the elegant pieces of writing in history are also the shortest.
Mathematically, I am increasing the signal-to-noise ratio by removing noise. Boosting signal in these votes is hard; it often requires significant insight. Suppressing noise, though, there's always a ton of noise.
Removing words for the sake of removing words isn't good. There is such a thing as too short. Sometimes you simply need more information. That's not the issue right now. Not even close.
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The Narrator
Disembodied Voice
- Location
- Somewhere Offscreen
And why do we want Homura to assert that? Homura feeling that way strikes me as being a bad thing.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Hmm.
My two biggest questions are:
First: This vote still provides no internal guidance on what the "intended point" is - or, rather, why we want Homura to react in this specific way. Plans, even thoroughly discussed ones, have been unfulfilled by Sabrina if they weren't actually mentioned in the vote itself instead of just in accompanying posts.
Second: If you've already made goal/plan based summaries of each line, why are you bothering with the actual dialogue versions?
My immediate suggestions regarding the current vote:
[ ] Standing:
-[ ] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off. Take your time.
-[ ] Continuous cleanse.
-[ ] If at any point you feel it's correct to do so, give Homura's time to compose herself.
-[ ] If at any point Homura asserts that regardless of what Madoka feels, she has hurt Madoka:
--[ ] INSERT REASONING AND BRIEF SUMMARY OF NEXT STEP HERE
-[ ]Try to avoid saying anything like "Madoka dreams about you fighting Walpurgisnacht." It's not relevant to the point you're trying to make. Stay on topic.
[ ] Madoka's conscious doesn't get fully erased when Homura goes back in time. Enough is carried back for her to judge Homura's actions. The judgement so far has been that Homura is good friend with her best interests at heart. Madoka accepts Homura's actions despite being capable of condemning them instead.
-[ ] Delivery: swift, serious, as one statement. Get to the "good friend" part quickly to avoid giving Homura nightmares.
-[ ] Provide evidencefor the previous line by explaining that the dreams have changed over the course of the loops and that Madoka gets information from previous loops in other ways also (gut instincts etc). (Main point: you're not bullshitting with the previous line. This is verifiable evidence that Madoka gets information from previous loops.)
-[ ]If Madoka wanted to give up or felt like she was being hurt by Homura's actions, the information from the previous loops would've reinforced that until Madoka gave up or rejected Homura. (Main point: Explain at length + in detail that Madoka really would react differently than she is/has if she felt that she was being hurt by the loops)
--[ ] Instead, the biggest thing being reinforced is Madoka's trust of Homura.(Main point: Madoka has decided + is continuing to decide that Homura is acting in her best interest)
My two biggest questions are:
First: This vote still provides no internal guidance on what the "intended point" is - or, rather, why we want Homura to react in this specific way. Plans, even thoroughly discussed ones, have been unfulfilled by Sabrina if they weren't actually mentioned in the vote itself instead of just in accompanying posts.
Second: If you've already made goal/plan based summaries of each line, why are you bothering with the actual dialogue versions?
My immediate suggestions regarding the current vote:
[ ] Standing:
-[ ] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off. Take your time.
-[ ] Continuous cleanse.
-[ ] If at any point Homura asserts that regardless of what Madoka feels, she has hurt Madoka:
--[ ] INSERT REASONING AND BRIEF SUMMARY OF NEXT STEP HERE
-[ ]
[ ]
-[ ] Delivery: swift, serious, as one statement. Get to the "good friend" part quickly to avoid giving Homura nightmares.
-[ ] Provide evidence
-[ ]
--[ ] Instead, the biggest thing being reinforced is Madoka's trust of Homura.
- Location
- USA
[X] Standing:
-[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[X] Continuous cleanse.
-[X] If at any point you feel it's correct to do so, give Homura time to compose herself.
-[X] If at any point Homura asserts that regardless of what Madoka feels, she has hurt Madoka, break -- that is indicative that the intended point has been made.
-[X] Try to avoid saying anything like "Madoka dreams about you fighting Walpurgisnacht." It's not relevant to the point you're trying to make.
[X] Madoka's conscious doesn't get fully erased when Homura goes back in time. Enough is carried back for her to judge Homura's actions. The judgement so far has been that Homura is good friend with her best interests at heart. Delivery: swift, serious, as one statement. Get to the "good friend" part quickly to avoid giving Homura nightmares. (Main point: Madoka endorses Homura's actions despite being capable of condemning them instead)
-[X] Provide evidence for the previous line by explaining that the dreams have changed over the course of the loops and that Madoka gets information from previous loops in other ways also (gut instincts etc). (Main point: you're not bullshitting with the previous line. This is verifiable evidence that Madoka gets information from previous loops.)
-[X] If Madoka wanted to give up or felt like she was being hurt by Homura's actions, the information from the previous loops would've reinforced that until Madoka gave up or rejected Homura. (Main point: explanation at length + in detail that Madoka really would react differently than she is/has if she felt that she was being hurt by the loops)
--[X] Instead, the biggest thing being reinforced is Madoka's trust of Homura. (Main point: Madoka has decided + is continuing to decide that Homura is acting in her best interest)
-[X] Tone: empathetic, soft; care to not drive Homura to close herself off.
-[X] Continuous cleanse.
-[X] If at any point you feel it's correct to do so, give Homura time to compose herself.
-[X] If at any point Homura asserts that regardless of what Madoka feels, she has hurt Madoka, break -- that is indicative that the intended point has been made.
-[X] Try to avoid saying anything like "Madoka dreams about you fighting Walpurgisnacht." It's not relevant to the point you're trying to make.
[X] Madoka's conscious doesn't get fully erased when Homura goes back in time. Enough is carried back for her to judge Homura's actions. The judgement so far has been that Homura is good friend with her best interests at heart. Delivery: swift, serious, as one statement. Get to the "good friend" part quickly to avoid giving Homura nightmares. (Main point: Madoka endorses Homura's actions despite being capable of condemning them instead)
-[X] Provide evidence for the previous line by explaining that the dreams have changed over the course of the loops and that Madoka gets information from previous loops in other ways also (gut instincts etc). (Main point: you're not bullshitting with the previous line. This is verifiable evidence that Madoka gets information from previous loops.)
-[X] If Madoka wanted to give up or felt like she was being hurt by Homura's actions, the information from the previous loops would've reinforced that until Madoka gave up or rejected Homura. (Main point: explanation at length + in detail that Madoka really would react differently than she is/has if she felt that she was being hurt by the loops)
--[X] Instead, the biggest thing being reinforced is Madoka's trust of Homura. (Main point: Madoka has decided + is continuing to decide that Homura is acting in her best interest)
Appletank
Acquire Cheese
I believe I've heard that theory tossed around. Its pretty much why she really only has one "thing". Her magic potential outside of timestop is pretty shit when you compare with Mami. Her only real way to increase her offensive potential is to utilize mundane equipment.
Onmur
Archangel of Nutella.
Go wording ideas go!
[] Behavior:
-[] Help Homura stay calm.
-[] Go at Homura's pace.
[] Comfort Homura.
-[] Reinforce that things will work out. Promise.
[] Case: Madoka's feelings carry through the loops.
-[] Offer supporting evidence.
--[] Madoka asking if they had met before.
--[] Madoka's feelings of 'deja vu'.
--[] Madoka's implicit trust in Homura.
-[] Madoka wants to trust Homura, to be her friend, always.
--[] Rather, she wants to reconnect with Homura.
--[] Those are the feelings Madoka's built up thorough the loops. She understands, even if she doesn't know.
[] Ask Homura again if she thinks she's hurting Madoka.
-[] Madoka wants to be her friend so desperately, not even turning back time can erase those feelings.
Hmmm... What if we don't go further that this point, see how Homura reacts first?
Hmmm... I hope some of this helps.
Hmmm...
... Maybe it's time to pull the secret weapon... from the vote in abeyance!
[Q] Relax. Comment:
-[Q] Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
-[Q] Raiding Yakuza for (4D) pocket money.
This will allow us to pull a 180 flawlessly:
--[Q] TELL HOMU THAT DOKA WASN'T HERSELF WHEN SHE ASKED HER TO MAKE THAT PROMISE.
This will work 100%. Not sure what results it will achieve, but it will work somehow.
[] Behavior:
-[] Help Homura stay calm.
-[] Go at Homura's pace.
[] Comfort Homura.
-[] Reinforce that things will work out. Promise.
[] Case: Madoka's feelings carry through the loops.
-[] Offer supporting evidence.
--[] Madoka asking if they had met before.
--[] Madoka's feelings of 'deja vu'.
--[] Madoka's implicit trust in Homura.
-[] Madoka wants to trust Homura, to be her friend, always.
--[] Rather, she wants to reconnect with Homura.
--[] Those are the feelings Madoka's built up thorough the loops. She understands, even if she doesn't know.
[] Ask Homura again if she thinks she's hurting Madoka.
-[] Madoka wants to be her friend so desperately, not even turning back time can erase those feelings.
Hmmm... What if we don't go further that this point, see how Homura reacts first?
Hmmm... I hope some of this helps.
Hmmm...
... Maybe it's time to pull the secret weapon... from the vote in abeyance!
[Q] Relax. Comment:
-[Q] Homura's hair and higher dimensions.
-[Q] Raiding Yakuza for (4D) pocket money.
This will allow us to pull a 180 flawlessly:
--[Q] TELL HOMU THAT DOKA WASN'T HERSELF WHEN SHE ASKED HER TO MAKE THAT PROMISE.
This will work 100%. Not sure what results it will achieve, but it will work somehow.
- Location
- Illinois
God, I know. I'm going to try to work through that tomorrow.
Vebyast
Nascent Transhuman
[X] Keep being empathyBrina.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
Obvious stuff.
[x] Long-term goal: Help Homura believe that the loops weren't failures. In particular:
-[x] Progress was being made on "not being tricked" with every loop, and her Wish last loop was sufficiently well informed.
-[x] Madoka was better off with Homura there, even if Homura wasn't perfectly successful immediately.
Overarching goal carried over from last update. Long-term subgoals, one carried over from the last vote, the other an addition from Kai. Strategic scale. These could be standing votes, but they're directed half at the thread to help us keep track of what we're doing, so I paste them straight into the vote and will copy them forward as appropriate.
[x] Start with your conclusions to help get Homura back on an even keel:
-[x] Madoka's dreams tell her to trust Homura. This means that she thinks Homura has been doing the right thing and that she's working with Homura.
-[x] Madoka was learning with every loop. Homura's perseverance and protection are how she could make a Wish without being tricked.
Goals for this specific vote. Tactical scale. I think they're self-explanatory.
[x] Supporting evidence, use as appropriate:
-[x] Examples demonstrating Madoka's dreams. You're pretty sure she's asked if they've met before, for example.
-[x] Madoka's trust in Homura isn't her usual general niceness. You think you've seen her unconsciously turning to Homura the same way she does to you.
-[x] If Madoka was being hurt by her memories she'd be behaving completely differently. She's not as strong as Homura is, she'd have given up or worse.
-[x] Madoka could have bad-ended the loops if she'd been tricked into a particularly bad Wish.
Particular maneuvers, provided to Brinapilot for use at her discretion. Can anyone think of any other additions?
This should be a clarification and expansion of Kaizuki's vote synthesized with what I've been voting for.
-[x] Take care to keep Homura open and communicating.
-[x] Take your time, give Homura however long she needs.
Obvious stuff.
[x] Long-term goal: Help Homura believe that the loops weren't failures. In particular:
-[x] Progress was being made on "not being tricked" with every loop, and her Wish last loop was sufficiently well informed.
-[x] Madoka was better off with Homura there, even if Homura wasn't perfectly successful immediately.
Overarching goal carried over from last update. Long-term subgoals, one carried over from the last vote, the other an addition from Kai. Strategic scale. These could be standing votes, but they're directed half at the thread to help us keep track of what we're doing, so I paste them straight into the vote and will copy them forward as appropriate.
[x] Start with your conclusions to help get Homura back on an even keel:
-[x] Madoka's dreams tell her to trust Homura. This means that she thinks Homura has been doing the right thing and that she's working with Homura.
-[x] Madoka was learning with every loop. Homura's perseverance and protection are how she could make a Wish without being tricked.
Goals for this specific vote. Tactical scale. I think they're self-explanatory.
[x] Supporting evidence, use as appropriate:
-[x] Examples demonstrating Madoka's dreams. You're pretty sure she's asked if they've met before, for example.
-[x] Madoka's trust in Homura isn't her usual general niceness. You think you've seen her unconsciously turning to Homura the same way she does to you.
-[x] If Madoka was being hurt by her memories she'd be behaving completely differently. She's not as strong as Homura is, she'd have given up or worse.
-[x] Madoka could have bad-ended the loops if she'd been tricked into a particularly bad Wish.
Particular maneuvers, provided to Brinapilot for use at her discretion. Can anyone think of any other additions?
This should be a clarification and expansion of Kaizuki's vote synthesized with what I've been voting for.
Homura currently believes that she's a complete failure. There's a major failure mode where she comes to believe that her loops are hurting Madoka and she gives up. The goal right now is to argue to Homura that she wasn't a failure, that she's been protecting Madoka and making progress toward ultimate success. This will have additional benefits on Homura's self-worth, which is nice. Most of all, we need Homura to be able to tolerate Madoka's Wish last loop ("I wish that everything could be fixed", essentially); if we can't convince her of this she'll reject her Wish ("to be the one to protect her this time") because she'll conclude that Madoka ended up having to protect herself. We basically have to convince Homura that she and Madoka have been working as a team. It's convenient that this is one of the canonical Good Ends for Homura and Madoka in addition to encouraging MadoHomu.
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DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
..... man when this is over we need to bring Homura out for Ice cream, lots of ice cream in an ice cream parlor full of grandfather clocks.
With Madoka.
With Madoka.
Script Mak3r
(Verified Sun God) (Verified Feathers)
- Location
- Hell of Blazing Fires
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Well that's where you went wrong. Nobody compares to Mami.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
counter argument - and no one compares to Homura.
*adjusts glasses*
edit to make this longer: Seriously you can't really compare any of the girls really their situations, reasons for contracting, motivations all seem to me far to different. Sayaka aside the one thing they have in common is needing some damn friends.
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- Location
- Illinois
Ok so to clarify @Firnagzen plz give me the time to fully explain to people what I'm trying to do, given the apparent opacity of my previous posts.
It wouldn't be right to proceed when nobody has a clue what is going on and, I mean... If onmur and redshirt and Vebyast don't know what is going on, nobody knows what is going on.
I swear to God I'll have something comprehensive up sometime tomorrow.
It wouldn't be right to proceed when nobody has a clue what is going on and, I mean... If onmur and redshirt and Vebyast don't know what is going on, nobody knows what is going on.
I swear to God I'll have something comprehensive up sometime tomorrow.
- Location
- Illinois
Firn, do you realize you're literally best
Like seriously I don't say this shit enough. You're the best.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
[x] Vebyast
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
@Kaizuki - This isn't opaque! It is just a very specific conditional. IF (Homura tries to overide Sabrina's argument) WHILE (stating Madoka does not have) VALUE ( feelings that are relevant to the issue)
The point is to catch Homura in a bind.
This line would require her to already agree with us that Madoka COULD have feelings about events from another loop. Is it obvious Homura will choose this reply?
The value of this in conversation is less than I would like. First, Homura could resist without revealing her internal belief, by speaking with unclear grammar etc. Second, it is a confrontation, and while Sabrina needs to be ready for that, the model for this type of persuasion is a bit different. We could build up competing statements, and then suddenly link them to make her thoughts log jam if she tries to resist. Cutting off all support is the kind of strategy I think we can use.
I am also waiting upon your "full guidance." This line is only one significant expectation? Or one of several in the future? Before I understand the vote, the rest of the idea is needed.
My fantasy goal is that she will instead get caught up in an absolution or catharsis if we get the order and delivery right? Sooorry. Wishing above my potential.
The point is to catch Homura in a bind.
This line would require her to already agree with us that Madoka COULD have feelings about events from another loop. Is it obvious Homura will choose this reply?
The value of this in conversation is less than I would like. First, Homura could resist without revealing her internal belief, by speaking with unclear grammar etc. Second, it is a confrontation, and while Sabrina needs to be ready for that, the model for this type of persuasion is a bit different. We could build up competing statements, and then suddenly link them to make her thoughts log jam if she tries to resist. Cutting off all support is the kind of strategy I think we can use.
I am also waiting upon your "full guidance." This line is only one significant expectation? Or one of several in the future? Before I understand the vote, the rest of the idea is needed.
My fantasy goal is that she will instead get caught up in an absolution or catharsis if we get the order and delivery right? Sooorry. Wishing above my potential.
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- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
@Vebyast - You did state that Sabrina should teach that 'progress was occurring in the loops', re: promise to Madoka. That needs to be stronger, and more complete?
What I feel is missing next to that is "progress towards Homura's wish" in each of the aspects it covers. There was no other path. Despite the cost, Homura had to gain levels to hit these milestones. 'Learning' is not visceral. Homura has reached a great and necessary height in soft power projection. Bring out the scale of the achievement clearly? What other being can stalemate Kyuubey for over a month, for example.
Ransack my prior vote discussions is you want formulations for your support block.
The idea of foreshadowing the Golden Ending for her may or may not be possible. But if it isn't X'ed, it doesn't happen, correct?
Homura is in a short term state. If your vote intends to use that timing for effect, it isn't strong to my parser. I think, you have given absolutly no 'scripting' at all to Brinapilot, 'stage directions' are as close as this comes. Did the actions you want to see certainly arise from these general directions? What other interpretations could occur?
Also, is it just me? Dune crossover when?
[Q] Madoka knows your ways as if born to them
-[Q] Madoka is having visions in her dreams!
--[Q] BGM choir does some Mau'd dib stuff
--[Q] "The Sleeper Must Awaken!!!"
What I feel is missing next to that is "progress towards Homura's wish" in each of the aspects it covers. There was no other path. Despite the cost, Homura had to gain levels to hit these milestones. 'Learning' is not visceral. Homura has reached a great and necessary height in soft power projection. Bring out the scale of the achievement clearly? What other being can stalemate Kyuubey for over a month, for example.
Ransack my prior vote discussions is you want formulations for your support block.
The idea of foreshadowing the Golden Ending for her may or may not be possible. But if it isn't X'ed, it doesn't happen, correct?
Homura is in a short term state. If your vote intends to use that timing for effect, it isn't strong to my parser. I think, you have given absolutly no 'scripting' at all to Brinapilot, 'stage directions' are as close as this comes. Did the actions you want to see certainly arise from these general directions? What other interpretations could occur?
Also, is it just me? Dune crossover when?
[Q] Madoka knows your ways as if born to them
-[Q] Madoka is having visions in her dreams!
--[Q] BGM choir does some Mau'd dib stuff
--[Q] "The Sleeper Must Awaken!!!"
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
@The Narrator - The plan has appealing elements, such as saying 'hero' and keeping the benefit statements short and elementary.
The counter points may not be sufficient. What if part of her bad reaction is "shame if Madoka was watching her?" Perhaps along with the assertion of Madoka's approval, find a way to lessen Homura's potential feeling that she could have done everything differently or better?
Not much evidence that you intend a re-framing talk with this vote? Or did that just not jump out for me, alone?
The counter points may not be sufficient. What if part of her bad reaction is "shame if Madoka was watching her?" Perhaps along with the assertion of Madoka's approval, find a way to lessen Homura's potential feeling that she could have done everything differently or better?
Not much evidence that you intend a re-framing talk with this vote? Or did that just not jump out for me, alone?