I think that it is critical to point out to Homura that there was a failure mode she didn't even imagine that she's successfully avoided, namely "Madoka Wishes that everything would just end" or "Madoka tells Homura to fuck off". Right now Homura doesn't think that she's succeeded at anything. Showing her that she's stopped that one huge thing has to do at least something to help her.

Madoka's Wish indicated a phase change. Up until the last loop, Homura's job was to keep Madoka from Wishing Bad and to keep everything going so that Madoka could keep accumulating knowledge. Now that that phase is complete, the job has change: Sabrina's here, Everything Can Be Fixed, and we have to execute. Homura has succeeded in dragging herself and Madoka through that initial build-up and into the final stretch.

Hmm. I think the main alteration I'd consider making in this vein would be pointing out that none of Madoka's wishes were catastrophic.

The issue is that I don't think it'd be particularly easy for Homura to attribute that fact to her own actions, as opposed to it simply being a reflection of Madoka's character. Actually, it's not particularly easy for me, either: Madoka not wishing to destroy the world is a lot more to Madoka's merit then it is to Homura's...

And "success" is, I think, a loaded term for Homura. She'd be a lot more okay with a statement that she "made progress" towards her goal (alive uncontracted Madoka post-WPN) then she would with a statement that she succeeded (and, implicitly, that "alive uncontracted Madoka post-WPN" isn't what we think her goal should be.)
 
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I think that it is critical to point out to Homura that there was a failure mode she didn't even imagine that she's successfully avoided, namely "Madoka Wishes that everything would just end" or "Madoka tells Homura to fuck off". Right now Homura doesn't think that she's succeeded at anything. Showing her that she's stopped that one huge thing has to do at least something to help her.
We don't actually know that there's never been a timeline where Madoka broke ties with Homura. If there was, it would have ended bad and gotten reset just like every other. And Madoka wouldn't know how to make a wish to end Homura's looping, since Homura doesn't usually tell her about it. That is an extremely low bar that you want to congratulate her for clearing.

Homura's lost Madoka in a hundred out of a hundred timelines, and lost the entire world in at least the last couple. The only reason that she hasn't lost entirely is because she's always managed to stay alive and not give up long enough to reset things and try again. I don't believe that she will ever consider that a "success."
 
Lewd.

But more seriously, I don't see how it actually ties the fates together. maybe I'm just dumb.

Essentially, since Homura is looping specifically for Madoka's sake, she is taking all the karma from previous Madokas and tying them to the next, because everything the new Madoka experiences is built on the backs of the previous ones. Homura's magic considers all iterations of Madoka to be the same karmic entity because Homura is treating them as the same person and burdening Madoka with the weight of her past selves.

There is a perpendicular timeline cutting through multiple universes, representing Homura. And each intersecting point is Madoka. It's supposed to basically be an allegorical representation of Madoka experiencing reincarnation in a Buddhist sense; her leftover karma from her previous life is being carried to the next 'life'.
 
I guess I just lack the cultural context to grok it then. It would make more sense to me if it was Madoka being the most important person in the universe because Homura would pull the plug if she died or witched.
 
I guess I just lack the cultural context to grok it then. It would make more sense to me if it was Madoka being the most important person in the universe because Homura would pull the plug if she died or witched.
That was how I always interpreted it: that Madoka was the most important person in the universe because time will literally never advance past April 30th, 2011 unless Homura can save her.
 
Basically Homura's magic makes it so karma considers all iterations of Madoka to be the same person, so all the Madokas have all the karma of their past selves, cumulatively, instead of everyone else where they only have the karmic context of their own personal timeline.

That added up. Like, way up, over hundreds of loops.
 
I guess I just lack the cultural context to grok it then. It would make more sense to me if it was Madoka being the most important person in the universe because Homura would pull the plug if she died or witched.
That was how I always interpreted it: that Madoka was the most important person in the universe because time will literally never advance past April 30th, 2011 unless Homura can save her.

There may or may not be a feedback loop involved.

Consider this: by becoming a Magical Girl and, subsequently, a Witch, each next Madoka has that much more potential to change lives of her fellow human beings, because Homura connects each Madoka with the previous one.

The more human lives she can alter upon Witching, the more powerful she potentially becomes in the next loop.

If you do not like the word "karma", think Fate, or, at least, Possibility.

Or read Tart Magica. They explain this shit better than I do.
 
I'm... extremely dubious about plotting a conversation 4 updates in advance, and I'm even more sceptical about doing it behind the back of the thread. It's neat that you think you have a super special awesome plan for dealing with this, but if you want to convince me to agree to your current course of actions you're going to have to convince me of your entire plan.

I'm not going to just assume that your plan is optimal on faith, not when planning too far ahead has already bit us in the ass repeatedly. Indeed, I'm very close to voting against you on principle at this point. I find this behaviour unacceptable.

I am going to recuse myself for the next several hours instead of submitting any of the response I have written to this.

This post was both anger-inducing and extremely hurtful.

I don't... no, I know exactly why I'm crying right now. I just can't fucking do anything about it.

Fuck's the point? I--

@Firnagzen I'm going to have to ask you to postpone for a while. Redshirt deserves his fully fleshed-out request. I just won't be able to write it until I forget about this first.
 
I am going to recuse myself for the next several hours instead of submitting any of the response I have written to this.

This post was both anger-inducing and extremely hurtful.

I don't... no, I know exactly why I'm crying right now. I just can't fucking do anything about it.

Fuck's the point? I--

@Firnagzen I'm going to have to ask you to postpone for a while. Redshirt deserves his fully fleshed-out request. I just won't be able to write it until I forget about this first.

*Curls up by catgirl and starts purring*
 
Kai, I think that you're spending too much effort on your essays. Seek brevity. I feel like most of your three-page essays could have better explained in three paragraphs. You're working hard instead of smart. Like, don't be this guy.
 
I am going to recuse myself for the next several hours instead of submitting any of the response I have written to this.

This post was both anger-inducing and extremely hurtful.

Clearly I've upset you far more then I meant to, and for that I apologize. I appreciate that you put a lot of effort into planning things, and that you did that because you care about the quest and want a good ending.

But, much like Homura, this isn't something you can or should be doing alone. We're working on building a better future for these characters together, and while it's scary to present your ideas for criticism, many eyes are better than one for this sort of thing. Let us help.
 
There may or may not be a feedback loop involved.

Consider this: by becoming a Magical Girl and, subsequently, a Witch, each next Madoka has that much more potential to change lives of her fellow human beings, because Homura connects each Madoka with the previous one.

The more human lives she can alter upon Witching, the more powerful she potentially becomes in the next loop.

If you do not like the word "karma", think Fate, or, at least, Possibility.

Or read Tart Magica. They explain this shit better than I do.

It's way, way more simple than that. Madoka has more Potential because the more Homura loops, the more she matters. The shadow of Homura's loop deprives everyone of their right to decide their own futures with more and more certainty.
 
It's way, way more simple than that. Madoka has more Potential because the more Homura loops, the more she matters. The shadow of Homura's loop deprives everyone of their right to decide their own futures with more and more certainty.

Isn't that what I just said? With a little more expanding on how it ties fates of more and more people to Madoka?

Uh. Nope. Not starting it. I don't really in discussions, so I'll just assume I did say something wrong and am too lazy to figure it out. Not very constructive, but hey, it's the Internet! I've heard it's full of these weird fleshy creatures that call themselves "humans".

Shudder

Any method that prevents me from being acknowledged "mentally defective" and recycled during the nearest cycle is good in my book.
 
It's way, way more simple than that. Madoka has more Potential because the more Homura loops, the more she matters. The shadow of Homura's loop deprives everyone of their right to decide their own futures with more and more certainty.

But the future just keeps trucking on. If it's one of the loops where madoka dies instead of witches, it doesn't even change anything.

I'm just not grokking it.

Ah well.
 
But the future just keeps trucking on. If it's one of the loops where madoka dies instead of witches, it doesn't even change anything.

I'm just not grokking it.

Ah well.

Okay, so imagine it terms of EXP. The EXP of Madoka 1.0 gets added to that of Madoka 2.0, and then that gets added to the EXP of Madoka 3.0, and so on.

Now Madoka has an effective level of like 50, but still acts like she's level 2 because she hasn't invested her EXP into anything yet.

But when she does?

Whoo boy.


(God I hope I'm getting all this right)
 
Isn't that what I just said? With a little more expanding on how it ties fates of more and more people to Madoka?

Uh. Nope. Not starting it. I don't really in discussions, so I'll just assume I did say something wrong and am too lazy to figure it out. Not very constructive, but hey, it's the Internet! I've heard it's full of these weird fleshy creatures that call themselves "humans".

Shudder

Any method that prevents me from being acknowledged "mentally defective" and recycled during the nearest cycle is good in my book.

Sorry, maybe I misunderstood. English is like my third language.

But the future just keeps trucking on. If it's one of the loops where madoka dies instead of witches, it doesn't even change anything.

I'm just not grokking it.

Ah well.

Look sideways. Madoka has accrued, in sideways time, the karmic potential of someone who's lived 14x(loop amount) despite only living 14 years. By the canon timeline, Madoka has the karmic weight of someone who's lived nearly 2,000 years.

And it doesn't matter if the future trucks on. It doesn't for Homura, the user of the magic. Her magic is the expression of her own feelings, and from her perspective, the world has no future after Madoka's death.
 
And it doesn't matter if the future trucks on. It doesn't for Homura, the user of the magic. Her magic is the expression of her own feelings, and from her perspective, the world has no future after Madoka's death.

But the world is more than just Homura is the thing. All the madoka's might have added karmic potential to effect Homura, but she's just one person. And I thought in canon there were only, like, 14 strings?
 
Actually, if I remember correctly, the potential accumulated per timeline was exponential.

So, let's take Madoka 1.0. She has like 70 years of potential in her, living a normal life. Then she contracts, knocking that down to 14. (Unless she was always destined to contract, and thus always had only 14 years of potential? Fuck if I know, I'm pulling all of this out of my ass.)

Move on to Madoka 2.0. She has 196 years of normal-life potential in her. Of course, the universe hates Homura, and therfore Madoka, compacting 196 years of normal life into 14 years of interesting life.

Fast forward to loop 100; the previous loop in PMAS terms. Madoka now has roughly 4.1*10105​ EONS of potential within her. (For reference, it's been projected that the last black hole will evaporate around 10100​ years from now.) More than enough to do whatever the hell she wants with a wish.

Assuming her "fix everything" wish didn't fuck with her own potential, the current Madoka has that much more potential.

This is why Kyubey's willing to do whatever it takes to get Madoka to contract. Even wishing of fucking cake would keep the lights on for God knows how long.
 
Alternate universes and timelines always creep me out because it means that the versions of the people you cared about are long gone and you're left with "close enough" versions. Plus there's the fact that most of the abandoned timelines are doomed.

Good thing PMMM never really got into that and that Homu only sees Madoka as Madoka no matter what, because the fact that she can never get the "first" Madoka back is pretty sad.
 
Actually, if I remember correctly, the potential accumulated per timeline was exponential.

So, let's take Madoka 1.0. She has like 70 years of potential in her, living a normal life. Then she contracts, knocking that down to 14. (Unless she was always destined to contract, and thus always had only 14 years of potential? Fuck if I know, I'm pulling all of this out of my ass.)

Move on to Madoka 2.0. She has 196 years of normal-life potential in her. Of course, the universe hates Homura, and therfore Madoka, compacting 196 years of normal life into 14 years of interesting life.

Fast forward to loop 100; the previous loop in PMAS terms. Madoka now has roughly 4.1*10105​ EONS of potential within her. (For reference, it's been projected that the last black hole will evaporate around 10100​ years from now.) More than enough to do whatever the hell she wants with a wish.

Assuming her "fix everything" wish didn't fuck with her own potential, the current Madoka has that much more potential.

This is why Kyubey's willing to do whatever it takes to get Madoka to contract. Even wishing of fucking cake would keep the lights on for God knows how long.

This is consistent with the stats we have of Madoka's first timeline. Hm.

Alternate universes and timelines always creep me out because it means that the versions of the people you cared about are long gone and you're left with "close enough" versions. Plus there's the fact that most of the abandoned timelines are doomed.

Good thing PMMM never really got into that and that Homu only sees Madoka as Madoka no matter what, because the fact that she can never get the "first" Madoka back is pretty sad.

Souls are multiversal in PMMM, capable of memory-leakage.

But even then, it doesn't really matter. She's still never getting back the "first" Madoka regardless of the nature of her time travel. No matter what, this Madoka isn't going to be the exact Madoka who loved her at first sight and cheered her up, and became friends with her after saving her life and everything else.
 
This is consistent with the stats we have of Madoka's first timeline. Hm.



Souls are multiversal in PMMM, capable of memory-leakage.

But even then, it doesn't really matter. She's still never getting back the "first" Madoka regardless of the nature of her time travel. No matter what, this Madoka isn't going to be the exact Madoka who loved her at first sight and cheered her up, and became friends with her after saving her life and everything else.

Actually, even if Homura was going back and forth along a single timeline instead of hopping multiple ones, it still wouldn't be the same Madoka, because this Madoka never contracted, and therfore never saved Moemura, never had that confidence boost that comes from selling your soul.


Fuck, this is depressing. I'mma go stare at atomic bomb calculations for a bit.
 
Is it definitively confirmed for PMAS at least that the other timelines exist and Homura could potentially return to them (the ones that aren't entirely destroyed at least, say Madoka died after killing Walmart but didn't witch or was too early). Because that.....

that is pretty horrifying, to say that rewinding fixes /nothing/ , it just creates (or discovers, a bit better) all new versions of loved ones to endure the same, all those past failures still present and unsalvageable with anything /less/ than Madokami level wishing. Forget potential-bomb, this one seems like it'd take out most of the team (Sabrina survives because she already knew it via you knowing peeps? >_>) and witch Homura so fast it'd make Gae Bolg green.

And it makes less sense to me.... whats it matter what Homura thinks, shouldn't her (admittedly impressive... whyd she have such potential?) wish still be that of Loop-1 Homura? If the observed effect is to step out of the timeline and hop to another, Homura's cutting adrift those others not connecting them. Madoka gets "leakage" in the way that Homura tracks in karmic mud from her past destinations while traveling but no wonder its just scraps of a dream or two. Madoka's potential makes far more sense to me if its a true loop, the one timeline bent in on itself in a spiral where the single timeline happens as it does only for Homura to yank it short from its never-future and thread it back in at an earlier point, creating a massive knot around the Madoka of this time period. (Relevantly, if she's just connecting existing Madokas wouldn't M have that potential from birth and get contracted before Homura's loop point?)

Kai, I think that you're spending too much effort on your essays. Seek brevity. I feel like most of your three-page essays could have better explained in three paragraphs. You're working hard instead of smart. Like, don't be this guy.

From you right now, and Redshirt (and sometimes Onmur) always, this feels like an Answer looking for a Question. Whatever the context, whatever the vote, no matter if its a fresh topic/scene or the continuation of a long conversation.... always shorter, always summarized. Redshirt is spending more wordcount on the specifics of "how to hug and speak soft" than he is on what actual topic to cover. We already saw earlier with how this whole talk of looping and Madoka kicked off as a /tangent/ from Homura asking why we bother trying to save O&K, where people wanted to backpedal and shift to cover this. And now people seem to want to drop Kaizuki's ongoing plan midway and scramble to new theories of "why Madoka doesn't need to wish" without continuing the point , only having left Homura with a dream-bomb who's purpose went unfufilled.

Basically, that'd be twice in this conversation where we do something risky with a payoff in mind (use talk of our purpose to justify saving everyone, and mention the dreams to show how Homura's succeeding and obeying Madoka's requests already) only to drop it halfway because another voting block or a skittish mind-change takes over. Thats the whole risk that was broached earlier with shorter updates like this, and I don't feel that we are "reacting to new information" exactly when we keep mini-bombing Homura without ever reaching the (punchline-equivalent) that we did it for.

I have to honestly ask @Redshirt Army , is there a potential situation or vote block where you /would not/ push to trim it down to 100 words and let Brina-pilot handle most of the work? Any occasion where, not split-second-decisions or fragile-Homura or anything to excuse, a longer detailed plan (say activities for the day, or science) would be valid that I'm just not remembering? Or is this favorite Answer just going to be applied to every new Question no matter what changes? (It feels a bit like you're defending your garage-dragon, is what I'm saying).
 
So it's been brought to my attention that there's maybe a bunch of smart people who I respect a lot who haven't understood a word coming out of my posts lately. Uh. That makes me feel preeeeeeeetty dumb.

Working on that. Veb is a wonderful person.
 
If Homura wanted to drop everything, hand responsibility to us, and take Madoka on an island vacation, we'd be done.
True enough, even if we both know Homura would never do that. However, that doesn't mean Homura has already won: chances may be way better than previous loops but Walpurgisnatch is still around and Kyubey can still convince Madoka of contracting in a moment of weakness.

And Homura's witch? I'm pretty sure the theories aren't about Homulilly, but that's neither here nor there.
 
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