Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
The Narrator said:
We definitely at least implied that Madoka's wish created us, even if we didn't discuss it in detail.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Certainly. For the purposes of approaching this all from the same page, we know we're pretty sure we come from Madoka's Wish, and word-of-Firn has given us that it's nearly certain that Homura has likely made that same connection. And, well, the presently winning vote seems to advocate having that discussion now, where we hadn't before, which is a valid option.

Mostly, all that quoting was in pursuit of confirmation that we're the ones bringing all these topics into the open, and to point out it's not like Homura was like "btw I think this may be a thing" and then not wanting it brought up again. Not sure anyone was specifically leaning on that point, but it was feeling like folks could have started. That's all.

... I'm going to go be asleep, because why am I still up, I have work to do tomorrow.
 
mCooperative said:
Mostly, all that quoting was in pursuit of confirmation that we're the ones bringing all these topics into the open, and to point out it's not like Homura was like "btw I think this may be a thing" and then not wanting it brought up again.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It does, at least, correct any misconceptions that people might have had that Homura was the one who raised the topic with us, which if true would have been indicative given how uncharacteristic it would have been for her.
 
mCooperative said:
Certainly. For the purposes of approaching this all from the same page, we know we're pretty sure we come from Madoka's Wish, and word-of-Firn has given us that it's nearly certain that Homura has likely made that same connection. And, well, the presently winning vote seems to advocate having that discussion now, where we hadn't before, which is a valid option.

Mostly, all that quoting was in pursuit of confirmation that we're the ones bringing all these topics into the open, and to point out it's not like Homura was like "btw I think this may be a thing" and then not wanting it brought up again. Not sure anyone was specifically leaning on that point, but it was feeling like folks could have started. That's all.

... I'm going to go be asleep, because why am I still up, I have work to do tomorrow.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


Because Your Fandom Burns Red? Awesome post!


Perhaps this is another point we need to convince her of. Then we can try to assert some room for Hope.

PTSD is harming her ability to think. Just like Grief could.

Tell her, right out, her thinking is in polar extremes right now. But give her an allegory. There is a family, trapped in their house during an earthquake. The neighbors are trying to lift a beam to open their way out. Are the heroes outside the house any less good, if the family pushes from inside the house at the same time? Did the family do something wrong when they did work to aid the neighbors saving them?
Homura and all of us live in a magic reality. If you save Madoka, the fact that Madoka helped you in the most moral way we could imagine Will Not Hurt Her. Just do what you have resolved to do. Meet her again, as your self. Protect her this time. The two of you had to practice until you got better at this than the Incubators. It took all those years to create the Homura who is able to do it, and the Madoka who could be there with you when it works. Really, without Homura Sabrina is just another brawling Magical Girl, and no where near able to save Madoka. Trust me, your opposition has been cheating for far too long. They deserve to lose under the same circumstances.

I think letting her have room to push her pieces back in shape is the goal, this is my prototype. Thanks @Kaizuki for the insight.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Apr 14, 2018 at 11:45 PM, finished with 136317 posts and 32 votes.
  • [x] Approach:
    -[x] Encourage Homura to believe in herself. Be positive.
    -[x] Respect Homura. Don't guess, respond. Provide explanations.
    -[x] Only bring up sensitive topics as prompted. Be delicate.
    [x] It doesn't work for "me", it works for "us". We're a team. Hugs/Cleansing as appropriate.
    -[x] Ask Homura to explain the issue. There is nothing she could possibly say right now to alienate us. Not when she needs a friend.
    [x] Address, if/when it comes up:
    -[x] Homura feeling useless.
    --[x] Explain how despite Sabrina's advantages, Homura remains invaluable in protecting Madoka.
    ---[x] If safe/necessary, Madoka's Wish's help.
    -[x] Risks we're taking.
    --[x] Address specific concerns.
    --[x] We won't risk ultimate success.
    -[x] Homura's promise.
    --[x] You don't think Madoka was tricked, last loop. She Wished that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future.
    [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
    -[X] And to sit down.
    -[X] And to cleanse.
    [X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
    -[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
    -[X] Absent reason otherwise as pursuant to the previous two lines, subsequently:
    --[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    ---[X] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    ----[X] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    --[X] Convince Homura that Madoka's Wish guarantees she can find a Good End that satisfies both her and Madoka.
    [x] Godwinson
    [X] Well, to be fair, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would.
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "Do you have any idea how hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything? Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    [X] "Most people don't pop out of nowhere with a good idea as to how to fix the problems of a bunch of other people they never met but remember really well. I can't say for certain how I'm here, but we both probably have a good guess. If a wish is powerful... What about a wish that helps other wishes? "
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself and her future by telling her to have faith in Madokami who has faith in her and Wished to fix everything.
    -[x] The conflict between the promise she made to Madoka and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    -[x] Homura not liking herself.
    [x] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    [x] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    [x] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    [x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    -[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    [x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    [x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    [x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    [x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    -[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    -[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [X] "Homura."
    -[X] Hug the stuffing out of her.
    [X] You don't have sufficient details of her early loops to truly compare and contrast, so you don't know if you can really give her a perfect answer as to why.
    -[X] But you'll damn well try if she asks. Any time, any where, for any topic, even if it takes you napping in timestop.
    [x]No matter how well things seem to go for me, my time is finite, as is the time of anybody else I've brought into this aspiring shadow government. I can't be everywhere at once.
    -[x]Example of force multiplier time stop provides that makes protecting Madoka possible.
    -[x]Break to listening/ soliciting further engagement with Brinapilot fear alleviation/explanation as needed.
    -[x](Response on Standby for concerns about her not being the one to do it personally)Governments are made of people. You know that picture from Hobbes' s Leviathan of a person made of people? You're part of the Leviathan too. The accomplishments of the Leviathan are the accomplishments of all the people it's made of.
    [X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
    -[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
    [X] Caution regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts.
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Apr 15, 2018 at 5:10 AM, finished with 136325 posts and 32 votes.
  • [x] Approach:
    -[x] Encourage Homura to believe in herself. Be positive.
    -[x] Respect Homura. Don't guess, respond. Provide explanations.
    -[x] Only bring up sensitive topics as prompted. Be delicate.
    [x] It doesn't work for "me", it works for "us". We're a team. Hugs/Cleansing as appropriate.
    -[x] Ask Homura to explain the issue. There is nothing she could possibly say right now to alienate us. Not when she needs a friend.
    [x] Address, if/when it comes up:
    -[x] Homura feeling useless.
    --[x] Explain how despite Sabrina's advantages, Homura remains invaluable in protecting Madoka.
    ---[x] If safe/necessary, Madoka's Wish's help.
    -[x] Risks we're taking.
    --[x] Address specific concerns.
    --[x] We won't risk ultimate success.
    -[x] Homura's promise.
    --[x] You don't think Madoka was tricked, last loop. She Wished that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future.
    [X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.
    [X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
    -[X] And to sit down.
    -[X] And to cleanse.
    [X] You're going to do your level best to answer anything she wants to know to the best of your ability. She needs that. If she doesn't want to say anything right now you'll start with your thoughts on why this is working, because that was the most likely thing you made out, but if she wants you to start anywhere else or, or anything...
    -[X] Tone and subtext: push her to engage in this in some manner. It's not really good if she just bottles it back up, this conversation seems like it needs to happen.
    -[X] Absent reason otherwise as pursuant to the previous two lines, subsequently:
    --[X] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    ---[X] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    ----[X] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    --[X] Convince Homura that Madoka's Wish guarantees she can find a Good End that satisfies both her and Madoka.
    [x] Godwinson
    [X] Well, to be fair, I have a huge bargaining chip that you never had: free, unlimited cleansing, as well as a massively powerful ally. That sways people, and convinces them that you're worth fighting for in a way that no amount of Grief Seeds ever would.
    [X] "You never really had an opportunity to learn charisma and persuasion skills. And while you've had a lot of time to learn since your Wish, you've also been constantly subjected to immense emotional trauma, with no one who could help you deal with it. That makes charisma and persuasion far more difficult. You've been fighting against a massive handicap all along, with no one to help you and no way to figure out what to do about it. I'd say you've done remarkably well, under the circumstances."
    [X] "Do you have any idea how hard it is to start all over and try again, after losing everything? Most people struggle to do that kind of thing once. You've done it dozens of times, without anyone to even talk to, ever since you were--what? 13? The fact that you haven't given up is, by itself, utterly remarkable. Don't sell yourself short. Everyone needs a helping hand, myself included. I'd never have gotten this far without you, for instance. Sayaka would be dead. Oriko would be at large. Kyubey would probably know everything. And more."
    [X] "You're fucking amazing, Homura, and we've only gotten this far because we've done it together. Also, remember how I came about because of Madoka's Wish? Well, the only reason she ever had a chance to even make that Wish is because of all of your efforts."
    [X] "Most people don't pop out of nowhere with a good idea as to how to fix the problems of a bunch of other people they never met but remember really well. I can't say for certain how I'm here, but we both probably have a good guess. If a wish is powerful... What about a wish that helps other wishes? "
    [x] Conversation goal: Attempt to help Homura believe in herself and her future by telling her to have faith in Madokami who has faith in her and Wished to fix everything.
    -[x] The conflict between the promise she made to Madoka and the fact that things are going well because of Madoka's Wish.
    -[x] Homura not liking herself.
    [x] Lead in with Asunaro being too blatantly better to be a convenient butterfly.
    [x] Lay out all your evidence. Kirika's antimagic for Oriko, Nagisa, Anri, timings, Sayaka's behavior.
    [x] Madoka's Wish is still helping.
    [x] You know how much that must hurt Homura. But that's not the end of the story, because Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that includes Homura's story.
    -[x] You know that Homura can only be happy if Madoka is safe and Homura is the one protecting her, and you know that Madoka can only be happy if Homura is happy.
    [x] You do mean that you know. Your metaknowledge focuses on some people. The two people it focuses on the most are Madoka and Homura. Madoka cares about Homura, and you're almost certain she Wished thinking of Homura.
    [x] Madoka wished that everything could be fixed. And that means Homura can be saved.
    [x] Silently pray to Madokami. She Wished to save Homura, but there's no way unless Homura can accept Her help, so there has to be something like this. Please let this work.
    [x] You don't believe that Madoka was tricked into that Wish. You think that she knew enough about Homura to know what she was doing.
    -[x] Homura's last loop diverges from your metaknowledge, but you know what kinds of Wishes Madoka makes, and she wouldn't have made that one without a good reason.
    -[x] And she decided to Wish that Homura could protect her and find happiness, among other things, and entrusted you and Homura with the future. You will see her will done.
    [X] "Homura."
    -[X] Hug the stuffing out of her.
    [X] You don't have sufficient details of her early loops to truly compare and contrast, so you don't know if you can really give her a perfect answer as to why.
    -[X] But you'll damn well try if she asks. Any time, any where, for any topic, even if it takes you napping in timestop.
    [x]No matter how well things seem to go for me, my time is finite, as is the time of anybody else I've brought into this aspiring shadow government. I can't be everywhere at once.
    -[x]Example of force multiplier time stop provides that makes protecting Madoka possible.
    -[x]Break to listening/ soliciting further engagement with Brinapilot fear alleviation/explanation as needed.
    -[x](Response on Standby for concerns about her not being the one to do it personally)Governments are made of people. You know that picture from Hobbes' s Leviathan of a person made of people? You're part of the Leviathan too. The accomplishments of the Leviathan are the accomplishments of all the people it's made of.
    [X] How can we explain this to the strongest girl in the world?
    -[X] Have a very soft, ask-and-answer talk with Homura. Repeat her statements if they are sentence fragments, help her to express. Do not complete for her, unless she motions for that. Kinda let her drive. If she stalls, only move forward a bit, then repeat the cycle. Stay as long as it takes.
    [X] Caution regarding Homura's PTSD, teach her those facts.
Click to expand...
 
mCooperative said:
August 17, 2014 (realtime), March 31, 2011 (Mitakihara time)
Direct Intervention pt. 58
Homura tells us about the events of last loop. This reveals that it was potentially identical to the canon last loop, except for the Wish Madoka made at the end. This wish, "that everything could be fixed", is revealed to us. The exact phrasing was clarified on July 4, 2017 (realtime), in "A Red Letter Day pt. 28" (see below). Note Homura's tone in this update; in my estimation, it does not appear that Homura is attempting to communicate to us the idea we were created by Madoka's wish; she seems too distressed with the whole conversation for that.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In the update before this, there's:

Firnagzen said:
Homura is being remarkably accommodating, don't you think?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This hint. I don't remember if Firn had dropped any more hints, and this doesn't quite confirm anything.

We have long guessed Homu had come up with the Sabrina=Madowish theory before we did; maybe we're wrong.

[] Kaizuki

I think I like where this is going. EDIT: CHANGING MY MIND AS I WRITE. Or, I agree generally but have my own vote I think is worth pushing forward now.

It's short, so maybe mini-update, but that's fine with me now that we are in a sensitive spot, confirmed. I'm not sure about jumping right into offering to explain everything right off the bat; I think we should deny the implication that we make everything just work...

... Unless Homu is implying that we magically make things work. Which isn't far off our assumptions about Madoka's Wish's effects and us.

... In which case trying to explain how everything is working just better even without our personal intervention would be... not a good way to go.

If that was the case, then one of the big problems here would be:

'This loop just works better, Madoka's Wish or Sabrina's sheer presence makes it so. Next loop things will go back to fucked up normal, no Sabrina, no Wish support. Yet Sabrina wants to risk it all to try for a 101% completion run including the crazy secret achievements- she wantsto save Oriko, who has ruined 100% *of the loops she's been in.'

This has to do with what Phoenixian was talking earlier, I think... But it means there's no reassuring Homu this way. There's no preparations she can make, no hints we can give, that will help her solve the next loop if she fails this one (regardless of whether she would survive this failure), because she knows the reason things are working better is because we are here. And we won't be there next time.

In this case, Homu (and Oriko) wants us to not stretch ourselves thin, concentrate on the parts she cares about, and don't risk it all for some other hazy 'unimportant' objectives. Specially not something so dangerous as helping Oriko.

*(I'm pretty sure we've told Homu that O&K have contracted in the past without her knowing about it, so bringing up Symmetry Diamond should not help. "Other Orikos and Kirikas have died fighting Walpurgisnacht" or something.)


...


So... I'm thinking maybe, what we need to explain, is not why things have worked, but why are our plans what they are. And then think about why would Homu give a shit.



[X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.

[X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
-[X] And to sit down.

[X] Deny that all just works for you. Bring up your failures if needed.

[X] Ask, try to find out what's truly worrying Homura.
-[X] That we're stretching ourselves too thin?
-[X] That we're taking unnecessary risks?
-[X] That, despite our promises to succeed this loop, an hypothetical next loop would just not work as well as this one?
-[X] That Madoka's Wish might be what's making things work?

[X] Offer to explain. Anything and everything. If Homu's interested.
-[X] The things you help work, not thanks to magic, but to your friends, and the knowledge derived from Homura's loops.
-[X] Also, from alternative versions of loops.
-[X] Why we're so insistent on going the extra mile. Planning for the future.
-[X] Why we think we can help Oriko in particular. Our risk assessment.
-[X] Anything she wants to ask?
 
Last edited:
>gets quoted
>have not participated or followed this quest for over 5000 pages

bruh, I have been clean from PMMM for years. Why you drag me back

Also damn that's some research lol.
 
@Kaizuki what I get from your analysis, is that there are two mutually opposed directions we can take this conversation in:

We can emphasize the importance of Madoka's Wish and how it not only created Sabrina, but also modified the timeline in such a way that things can be fixed. This helps deal with Homura's feelings of inadequacy and failure - she couldn't have achieved the results we had even if she did everything correctly. This is an explanation Homura won't want to accept, because relying on Madoka's Wish goes against their promise, but that's something we can work through with her eventually. However, this also means that this loop is truly the one final chance to win. Which will make her even more opposed to the Oriko project, on the grounds that it's too risky - a sentiment, ironically, echoed by Oriko herself with her "don't spread yourself too thin" warning. This will be a problem for us in general, as it puts Homura inherently in opposition to us, the conservative voice of focusing on Walpy and Madoka's safety at the expense of everything else.

Or, we can try to convince her that what Sabrina has done can be replicated in other loops. This emphasizes Homura's past failures, that she could have won already but wasn't good enough to find the path to victory. However, it also gives her hope for the future - the path exists, and we might be able to help her find it on her own, in case this loop ends in disaster like all the others. This option would make the Oriko project much easier, as Homura would be more inclined towards experimentation, if only to understand how to handle Oriko in subsequent loops. We'd have to deal with Homura's horrible self-esteem, but that also seems doable. However, considering that we actually think this timeline was modified by Madoka's wish, we'd be lying to her and giving her false hope.

The vote you proposed, I see as very reluctantly going down the second path. What are your thoughts on the implicit deception of it? Or am I misunderstanding your intent?
 
Aranfan said:
I could have sworn that it was Homura who told us she thought we were the result of Madoka's wish.

But I'll admit it could just be my faulty memory.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

She didn't say it explicitly, but you're mostly correct.

Firnagzen said:
Homura is being remarkably accommodating, don't you think?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Firnagzen said:
She swallows painfully. "Yes. She... she wished that everything could be fixed. And then she killed Walpurgisnacht, and..." Homura trails off, and her shield bearing arm makes a little gesture, grabbing at empty air.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

This was posted on August 15th, 2014, and while there was earlier speculation a few months earlier IRL, it wasn't "mainstream" consensus before then - certainly not to the point of affecting updates or getting in votes.
 
Last edited:
[X] "Homura."
-[X] Hug the stuffing out of her.
[X] You don't have sufficient details of her early loops to truly compare and contrast, so you don't know if you can really give her a perfect answer as to why.
-[X] But you'll damn well try if she asks. Any time, any where, for any topic, even if it takes you napping in timestop.
 
Sorry about the stream of consciousness post, but now that I'm fully awake, tldr:

I'm certain Homu knows things are going better due to Madowish. That's what she means that things are working for us.

Things are working for the everything-fixer because of the fix-everything Wish.

So I'll disagree with Kai on this point:
Kaizuki said:
She believes, rightly, that she should be essentially able to replicate what we've done if she just understood how the fuck we did it. But without the knowledge of how, if some random thing were to go wrong in this timeline, everything would just be shot to pieces and -- and it'd be done. Over. Gone. Fucked. She'd never be able to put it together because she already tried to put together what we've done, and she failed even after a hundred tries.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Homu knows she can't replicate what we've done.

So what we should touch on, is that not everything we've managed is due to Madoka's Wish. Some of it is really because of our metaknowledge and our working together with everyone.

This is a bit what Roomba says in his first point:
Roomba said:
@Kaizuki what I get from your analysis, is that there are two mutually opposed directions we can take this conversation in:

We can emphasize the importance of Madoka's Wish and how it not only created Sabrina, but also modified the timeline in such a way that things can be fixed. This helps deal with Homura's feelings of inadequacy and failure - she couldn't have achieved the results we had even if she did everything correctly. This is an explanation Homura won't want to accept, because relying on Madoka's Wish goes against their promise, but that's something we can work through with her eventually. However, this also means that this loop is truly the one final chance to win. Which will make her even more opposed to the Oriko project, on the grounds that it's too risky - a sentiment, ironically, echoed by Oriko herself with her "don't spread yourself too thin" warning. This will be a problem for us in general, as it puts Homura inherently in opposition to us, the conservative voice of focusing on Walpy and Madoka's safety at the expense of everything else.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
And it's what I think will be the main crux on this conversation and maybe the future, between Homu and us.

We want to save everyone. Homu wants to save Madoka. Old problem.

We'd basically need to convince Homura that what we are doing is worth it. Partly it could be done with the Madowish angle; everything is connected.

But at its core, we would be basically trying to get Homu and Doka to cooperate and find a middle ground, where they historically tug at each other's extremes.

Something that could maybe help is sharing knowledge of alternate timelines, like the PSP golden ending. Or our own not-quite canon fails.

The knowledge we have shows us possibilities. Homu actually winning is one such. And we can help her understand how that could come to happen!

Or, we can try to convince her that what Sabrina has done can be replicated in other loops. This emphasizes Homura's past failures, that she could have won already but wasn't good enough to find the path to victory. However, it also gives her hope for the future - the path exists, and we might be able to help her find it on her own, in case this loop ends in disaster like all the others. This option would make the Oriko project much easier, as Homura would be more inclined towards experimentation, if only to understand how to handle Oriko in subsequent loops. We'd have to deal with Homura's horrible self-esteem, but that also seems doable. However, considering that we actually think this timeline was modified by Madoka's wish, we'd be lying to her and giving her false hope.

The vote you proposed, I see as very reluctantly going down the second path. What are your thoughts on the implicit deception of it? Or am I misunderstanding your intent?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
In this case, rather than 'replicate what Sabrina has done', what we could give Homu is the possibility to replicate some of it, the parts she cares about.

Homu wants the PSP golden ending. She could feasibly achieve that if we help her understand how.

She doesn't want a Most Exotic Mamigold Hotel (one of our mom's only flaws). Or to save ALL the meguca. But we could totally give her the tools she's missing to tackle a normal loop and win.

... Problem: I think Homura thinks all of our success is based on our... sheer Sabrinaness, magic and no magic.

So we need to disuade her of that notion; deny it and explain which parts of our success come from Madowish, and which parts are actual things Homu or anyone else could do.
 
[X] Onmur

Not the only reason I'm voting for that, but I like the way how Madoka's Wish is presented: first to make sure Homura to acknowledge it's a problem (and most probably it's the cause of Sarina's existence). Yes, she knows and we know she knows, but I want Homura to say it.
 
[x] Onmur

I like the nuance on talking about Madoka's wish. I think both Vebyast and Kaizuki have good points, but I feel Onmur does a better job addressing both as a cohesive whole.
 
First of all, I read all of PMAS in one multi-day session last week, and it's brilliant.

As to the current conversation, maybe we could reassure her and indirectly defuse the potentialbomb in one go? Something along the lines of "From what I know, Madoka's wish could even retroactively erase witches from existence, although there'd be adverse effects due to rewriting history. Tweaking the next timeline so that 'everything can be fixed' is trivial to her. Actually, have you ever tried to make sure that if Madoka makes a contract, she wishes good? Perhaps 'soulgems cannot be tainted by Grief'? That way, even if she became a meguca she'd be safe."
It would give her hope for future timelines and soften her fear of Madoka's potential.

As an unrelated question, can we guarantee that Homura will have her timestop at the time Walpurgisnacht appears? I'd rather not propose a potential strategy only for GM fiat to stop it before it becomes relevant.

Aside from that, our Dayplanner ToDo is missing that Koizumi Aki wanted a spar with Sayaka:
Firnagzen said:
Hit me up if you get better at it, always wondered what it'd be like to fight another cloner.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
Last edited:
The problem with Madoka contracting is one of sheer trauma.

Madoka, while despairing and turning into Gretchen, made Moemura promise to never let her be fooled by KB and contract again. Then she asked Moemu to kill her.

Homu took it to heart.

If we could somehow convince Homu to let Doka contract, we could probably shoot 99% of the quests problems in the head by helping Doka Craft The Best Contract Vote Forever.

Or we could have Wished for something that would've solved everything in the first place. Wasn't allowed though, for a good reason...

Nachtigall said:
"From what I know, Madoka's wish could even retroactively erase witches from existence,
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
"-That would end the quest, though."

"..."

"..."

*Hugs Homura*
 
Onmur said:
In this case, Homu (and Oriko) wants us to not stretch ourselves thin, concentrate on the parts she cares about, and don't risk it all for some other hazy 'unimportant' objectives. Specially not something so dangerous as helping Oriko.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Onmur said:
-[X] That we're stretching ourselves too thin?
-[X] That we're taking unnecessary risks?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It's not either of these; Homura wouldn't have asked why it's working for us. She'd have said that she was worried we're stretching ourselves too thin or taking unnecessary risks.
Onmur said:
-[X] That, despite our promises to succeed this loop, an hypothetical next loop would just not work as well as this one?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Homura wouldn't be hurting so much if it was this. This isn't something that would hurt her. It'd worry her. She'd be suspicious. But it wouldn't hurt.

And more than that... these problems aren't important. They're not something that relates to the core conflicts of PMAS. Reassuring Homura about them doesn't help her. She doesn't become healthier if we reassure her in those ways. In fact, asking her if she's worried about having to make another loop hurts her. They don't help her not hate herself. They don't do anything to prevent Homucifer. They don't do anything to take advantage of this:
Firnagzen said:
Deep down inside Homura, that scared girl who looked out onto a world and knew that here be monsters is still there.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...


Onmur said:
[X] Offer to explain. Anything and everything. If Homu's interested.
-[X] The things you help work, not thanks to magic, but to your friends, and the knowledge derived from Homura's loops.
-[X] Also, from alternative versions of loops.
-[X] Why we're so insistent on going the extra mile. Planning for the future.
-[X] Why we think we can help Oriko in particular. Our risk assessment.
-[X] Anything she wants to ask?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If you're going to ask for clarification, wait for clarification before answering the question.
Onmur said:
She doesn't want a Most Exotic Mamigold Hotel (one of our mom's only flaws). Or to save ALL the meguca. But we could totally give her the tools she's missing to tackle a normal loop and win.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
This is not useful.

Homura's problem right now isn't that she doesn't know how to social. Her problem isn't even that she's worried that the Madowish will be gone later. Those would not be causing her pain. They would not be bringing up trauma. She'd be saying "Teach me!", not "Why is it working". She isn't asking for a fucking how! She wants a why, and she doesn't care about us as much as she cares about herself. Right now she hurts because she thinks that she's been doing it wrong the whole time. And not just doing it wrong, doing it completely wrong - Homura's in dire risk of wish rejection right now, because she's worrying that she might be failing to be the one to protect Madoka. Nothing you're offering will help with that.

The primary point of my vote is not to credit the madowish. It's not to convince her that she can do what we're doing. It's not to tell her that the Madowish will still be there to help her if she's forced to loop. It's to tell her that Madoka's Wish means that she can be saved.
 
Onmur said:
[X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.

[X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
-[X] And to sit down.

[X] Deny that all just works for you. Bring up your failures if needed.

[X] Ask, try to find out what's truly worrying Homura.
-[X] That we're stretching ourselves too thin?
-[X] That we're taking unnecessary risks?
-[X] That, despite our promises to succeed this loop, an hypothetical next loop would just not work as well as this one?
-[X] That Madoka's Wish might be what's making things work?

[X] Offer to explain. Anything and everything. If Homu's interested.
-[X] The things you help work, not thanks to magic, but to your friends, and the knowledge derived from Homura's loops.
-[X] Also, from alternative versions of loops.
-[X] Why we're so insistent on going the extra mile. Planning for the future.
-[X] Why we think we can help Oriko in particular. Our risk assessment.
-[X] Anything she wants to ask?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Nothing to bolster Homura's self-esteem or make her feel important and useful? You don't think that the fact that we're making more progress in a few weeks than she's made in the last twelve years at the thing she sold her soul to do making her feel like a failure could be a factor at all?
 
The Narrator said:
Nothing to bolster Homura's self-esteem or make her feel important and useful? You don't think that the fact that we're making more progress in a few weeks than she's made in the last twelve years at the thing she sold her soul to do making her feel like a failure could be a factor at all?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We're gonna be here a while. I want to get confirmation on Homu's main worry right now before going on.

My vote is really "make Homu not think everything's going right just because Madowish" + confirm Homu's main worry right now + Kai's vote + some questions/ideas to help prod Homu along.

What I think is Homu's main worry is pretty much that we're doing things and taking risks that Homu doesn't want us to.

I'm kind of certain the reason why Oriko insists we shouldn't stretch ourself too thin isn't a coincidence; it might just be she knows what will happen if Homu thinks we're stretching ourselves too thin.

If we want to address this, we need to either restrain our actions or convince Homu we're doing something worthwhile.

But I'd leave that for next round. First I want Homu to confirm what her worries are. If there's anything to take out of m's quote hunt is that we probably should state these things, rather than be content with our best guesses.
 
Onmur said:
make Homu not think everything's going right just because Madowish
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
...Why is this useful? I actively want to convince Homura that everything can be attributed to Madoka's Wish because it shows her just how powerful it is, which is necessary for arguing to her that it means that she too can be saved. I think that in the entire history of PMAS that is literally the only idea anyone has ever come up with that has even a chance of averting Homucifer. We need Homura to be okay with Sabrina succeeding. Otherwise Homura tears it all to pieces because she wasn't the one to protect Madoka. This isn't negotiable! We cannot afford to prove to Homura that she's worthless because that will end with her witching out.
Onmur said:
What I think is Homu's main worry is pretty much that we're doing things and taking risks that Homu doesn't want us to.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think that Homura isn't worrying right now. I think that Homura is doubting herself so strongly that it's hurting her.

edit: I think that this is our chance to directly address the Homucifer problem, possibly the first chance we've gotten in the entire quest, because Homura gave us the perfect opening. I think that we need to take it right now, not just because it's a good opening but because it's hurting Homura. I think that we can put the other shit off to later because it's not important and it wouldn't be hurting Homura like this.
 
Last edited:
Onmur said:
What I think is Homu's main worry is pretty much that we're doing things and taking risks that Homu doesn't want us to.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
But the last thing she said to us before we broke to voting wasn't complaining about Oriko or our methods. It was complaining that things are working out so well for us, with the implied question of why they never did so for her.
 
Explaining what parts of this timeline are going right because of Madowish and which are not, which Homu could have done and which she couldn't have, should be done in a way that'd allay Homura's fears that if we fuck up this timeline, she will lose her only good chance at winning ever (after Oriko Magica).

Because in a normal loop, with Homura's normal goals, she could feasibly win with out guidance. That much we can give her, solely so she'll worry less, so she won't cling so desperately to the idea this timeloop must work that she's decide we're stretching ourselves too thin and take matters into her own hands.

Trying to talk her into going for a middle ground in between her and Madoka's extreme, accepting that she can protect Madoka empowered by Madoka's previous Wish, should happen, but first we need Homu in a calmer state of mind to even consider such a thing.

The Narrator said:
But the last thing she said to us before we broke to voting wasn't complaining about Oriko or our methods. It was complaining that things are working out so well for us, with the implied question of why they never did so for her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm reading the implication that Homu knows it's working for us, the everything-fixer, because of the everything-fixing Wish.

Then the implication being that this timeline is special, and Homu doesn't like how we're risking everything for Oriko's sake, but it's not just about Oriko any more:
"It doesn't have to be her,"
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We're doing loads of strange and dangerous things this timeline, like attracting half the world's meguca population to Mitakihara, and Homu is scared that one of the many, many problems we're causing will end up ruining this timeline.

Even if we did everything right with Oriko and she turned out Good and not a Madoka killer, helping Oriko is just one of the many mysterious things we're doing.
 
I want to encourage everyone to again consider what Homura actually says last post. If she starts talking about Madoka we should do a Vebyast, but as a rule I don't believe it is productive to veer into... That... When Homura is actively talking about something else.
 
Onmur said:
should be done in a way that'd allay Homura's fears that if we fuck up this timeline, she
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If we fuck up this timeline, Feathers kills everyone. Does "everyone" include Homura? If so, there is no "next timeline".
Onmur said:
kihara, and Homu is scared that one of the many, many problems we're causing will end up ruining this timeline.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No she isn't, because she's asking WHY IT'S WORKING. If she was worrying about this she'd be talking about it NOT WORKING.

She is hurting right now because she has started to accept that we are succeeding. And that is hurting her, more than anything we've ever seen. She's been scared, she's been worried, we've seen trauma and remembered pain and fear, but we don't see her doubting herself so much that she's calling into question her very being. This is fucking wish rejection in progress.
Kaizuki said:
I want to encourage everyone to again consider what Homura actually says last post. If she starts talking about Madoka we should do a Vebyast, but as a rule I don't believe it is productive to veer into... That... When Homura is actively talking about something else.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Homura is talking about herself and the only way to fix Homura is o talk about Madoka.
 
Gonna cannibalize the onmur vote down from what it is to what it should be.

[X] Permanent: Break to voting whenever Sabrina detects a change in course of action might be merited.

[X] Ask for temporary full hugging privileges.
-[X] And to sit down.

[X] Ask Homura to talk to you. There is nothing she could possibly say right now to alienate you. Not when she needs a friend.
-[X] Cleanse.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top