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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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I don't pay a lot of attention to discussion in the thread, so hopefully that helps me look at these updates with a little fresher of an eye.

It appears to me that the discussion with Sayaka and Homura keeps failing to address the main point for each of them. Let me address in order.

Sayaka
They burned down her house and she wants them punished. Words that Sabrina has not used in this entire discussion. "Punishment" "Restitution" "Compensation". Sabrina has at no point engaged with Sayaka as the victim of a crime who deserves to be made whole in some manner. You want to know why Sayaka keeps being so resistant to letting them go? Because keeping them prisoner is the only penalty for burning down her house that has ever been offered. I don't think that Sayaka is some kind of pro-punishment fanatic, but you need to give her something here. I mean, has Oriko even fucking apologized? Maybe start with that. Just, Sabrina keeps engaging with this purely in terms of what Oriko and Kirika need. At no point has she asked Sayaka, "What do you need? What can make you feel whole?" Sayaka is a good girl who doesn't really enjoy keeping people prisoner, but you've given her nothing else. Maybe try to get some restorative justice going here. Say the words, "Sayaka, you and your parents are victims and we need to find a balance between justice and mercy for the people who wronged you."

Homura
Homura is much more going for this tracking business, but the root of it is that she wants some guarantee that Oriko and Kirika won't do anything bad. Sayaka is concerned with the past; Homura is concerned with the future. She doesn't trust them. So let me ask the thread... why does Sabinra not believe that they will do anything bad in the future? What is it that she believes has changed in Oriko's character to think that if she regains her Seer Sight, she won't be willing to commit arson and murder for the future she wants? Can we answer that question? If so, tell Homura the answer. And if we can't answer that question, maybe we need to take Homura's concerns more seriously. I think the answer would be that Oriko now understands that it's wiser to work with Sabrina than against her.
 
Body cam is a good idea actually.

One we would not even have considered.

Ankle monitor seems like it would work quite well for keeping track of them. Could maybe grief forge something, its just a radio transmitter.
 
[X] Propose making a robust Grief-construct lie detector, testing it among yourselves, and having you and Homura question Oriko and Kirika with it. If it works, you can eliminate the question of trust altogether. You could even make questioning sessions a regular thing, if absolutely necessary.
[X] If Sayaka isn't willing to provide escort for them, you will. You've done it before, after all, and things went well. Besides, you've already trusted Kirika to have your back in combat more than once--and she's performed above and beyond expectations every time.

I swear to fucking god, if my lie detector idea gets completely ignored yet again...
 
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Raiseth said:
It's a good idea, but the problem is, we don't even know who or what Feathers is. We have some theories
"waves his hands around"
Somewhere. Our current step in that direction is Sciencing the shit out of the Feather we've got.

Edit:ninja'd.
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blast flame said:
Having plans would require knowing what it is and what it can do. We lack these prerequisites.
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Start by learning that, then. We can do that, at least in theory, by experimenting with our barrier more. Last time we did that, the world changed, and Sayaka was targeted, but the exact mechanism of the change is still unknown, as is the motive.

So for example, we gather everyone we think could be targeted (Madoka and Hitomi on the civilian side), Mami sets up her ribbon sensor network, and Sabrina exactly repeats what she did the last time, while everyone else stays outside, keeps an eye out, and stays in contact with other local meguca in case they see anything. There's still risk, but if the enemy can seriously hurt us even with all these precautions, then waiting for them to do so at their own leisure is likely even worse.

Honestly, the motive is what I'm interested in the most. It's interesting that they went after Sayaka the first time, but it's really hard to make inferences from a single point of data.
 
Dunno if it's been suggested before, but if Kirika can disable enchanted trackers, why not something like magical wards/tripwire that will send a silent alarm to us and Homura if it detects Oriko or Kirika passing through? Set those up around in a 2 km radius around wherever they're gonna be kept in house arrest. Or enchant an accessory that Madoka wear that will warn Homura if it detects the Kurt's is within 200-300 meters away from her.
 
[X] Plan Acknowledge Wrongs Done
- Ask to address each of them in turn.

- To Sayaka:
-- Acknowledge to Sayaka that she and her parents were victims of a crime. They were wronged. The question here is, what can be done to make it better and restore them as much as possible.
-- Sayaka, keeping Oriko and Kirika imprisoned was never going to be a long term thing. What are we going to do, keep a couple of teenage girls under house arrest for years? And we can't go to the mundane justice system either. Meguca can't survive in a regular prison, and separating the two of them would kill them both.
-- But at the same time, Sayaka deserves justice. Only Sayaka can answer the question of what 'justice' means to her, what she needs. An apology? Some way to get her parents financial compensation? Beating the crap out of Oriko?
-- Sabrina knows this is a heavy load to put on Sayaka, but we need to figure this out for real rather than pretending that keeping them under house arrest indefinitely is a viable solution.
-- (forceful here) Sabrina is not willing to be a jailer of meguca who have shown themselves willing to cooperate and surrender. She doesn't think Sayaka wants to be that either.

-To Homura
-- Homura is a little different. It's not about what Oriko and Kirika did in the past, is it? It's about what they might do in the future.
-- The question is, how do we know that if Oriko regains her seer sight she won't again resort to arson or even murder to go after whatever crazy future she wants?
-- But Homura, our current solution is no solution at all. Oriko is under house arrest because she agreed to be under house arrest. If she ran away at any time, odds are she could figure out some way to escape and avoid your time stop search, especially if her future sight was working again so she could run when we were all distracted.
-- Whatever comfort Homura thinks she has from knowing where to go to check on them is an illusion.
-- So going with trackers over pretending we have them pinned to one location would be an improvement on the current situation.
-- But more than that, Sabrina believes that Oriko won't do bad things again in the future.
-- Not because she's suddenly changed to be a great person, but for two reasons:
--- One, because Sabrina and Homura and Sayaka and Mami are all really scary Meguca. Working with us is always going to lead to better outcomes than working against us.
--- Two, Oriko has something to live for now. She loves Kirika and doesn't want Kirika to suffer. She doesn't want to throw her own life away because it would make Kirika suffer. She doesn't want to do things that will draw punishment and retaliation because it would make Kirika suffer. She now has something to lose.
-- Sabrina believes we've driven that message into Oriko's head. What would it take for Homura to believe it too?
 
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[] Tracking.
-[] Mami Ribbons.
-[] Sayaka could ask/hypnotize/mind whammy the local fauna into watching O&K.
-[] Cameras: We could Grief Hax something to watch the footage? Mami halp?
-[] Hiring someone with appropriate powers, like Taniguchi?

[Q] Tell Kyouko who led KB to Yuma.

[] About the crime: Propose...
-[] Telling the Mikis about magic...
-[] Oriko confessing her crime to the Mikis.
-[] Propose Oriko selling her mansion to pay the Mikis. She probably would be down for it, too.


defenestrator said:
Dunno if it's been suggested before, but if Kirika can disable enchanted trackers, why not something like magical wards/tripwire that will send a silent alarm to us and Homura if it detects Oriko or Kirika passing through? Set those up around in a 2 km radius around wherever they're gonna be kept in house arrest. Or enchant an accessory that Madoka wear that will warn Homura if it detects the Kurt's is within 200-300 meters away from her.
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That was one of the ideas for what to (ask Mami to) practice during enchantment practice today. But we didn't, so we don't really have this magic yet.
 
Sabrina is right, though. The mechanism for tracking is a sideshow.

The point is not to know where Oriko is at all times. The point is to make sure she doesn't do anything bad, or send Kirika off to do anything bad. Tracking can help accomplish that, but it's insufficient if you believe that she wants to go do bad things. Because there will always be a way around it, or even just going and doing bad things while being tracked. What is necessary is to set Homura's mind at ease that they will not go do bad things.
 
One thing that consistently turns me off of this quest is that Sabrina has alternate goals from Homura, but repeatedly reassures her that she has her best interests at heart.

Frankly, the only reason that we aren't reacting exactly the same way that Homura has been, is that we believe that it would be paranoid, but we've never exactly come out and said this or tried to resolve it with her - Rather, we've tried to bypass those concerns like a charismatic salesman; "Homura, whilst i think that Oriko has reason to be locked up, can we please do x thing anyway?" We rely on her trust so as to eek out further milestones of lax security, but every time they come close to suspecting this fact we're quick to excuse ourselves and manipulate them further.

Look, i can understand the need to keep info away from them that may actually harm them and cause a grief spiral, but can we come clean and explain less dangerous information, such as our full point of view and motivations when it comes to the kuras?

For example the fact that Sabrina suddenly trusts Oriko to not do anything bad despite the fact that she's only known them a week, as well as the fact that she's been trying her best to ease them into the idea of doing the same? Because that's all I've seen discussed in this thread so far - Ways of manipulating the other girls into accepting a person who they believe has wronged them.

Either take their side against Oriko, or explain to them that you're not on it and why.
 
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Onmur said:
That was one of the ideas for what to (ask Mami to) practice during enchantment practice today. But we didn't, so we don't really have this magic yet.
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I'm not sure that such a development is, strictly speaking, necessary. If Mami tags them with fourth-dimensional ribbons or some other form of tracking (which she did earlier for Anri) then she'd already immediately know if Kirika shut them down with antimagic because the signal would go dead.
 
[] Suggest that Sayaka ask Oriko if she could burn her house down to even things out. You bet Oriko would even offer suggestions on which combustibles to use.

Somewhat more serious:

[] If the Kures do move to a new place, you might be able to get Kyoko on board in exchange for food and and a stable place to live, instead of having to burn magic squatting in hotels; if only for Yuma's sake.
 
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matthew badger said:
One thing that consistently turns me off of this quest is that Sabrina has alternate goals from Homura, but repeatedly reassures her that she has her best interests at heart.

Frankly, the only reason that we aren't reacting exactly the same way that Homura has been, is that we believe she is paranoid, but we've never exactly come out and said this or tried to resolve it with her - Rather, we've tried to bypass those concerns like a charismatic salesman; "Homura, whilst i think that Oriko has reason to be locked up, can we please do x thing anyway?" We rely on her trust so as to eek out further milestones of lax security, but every time they come close to suspecting this fact we're quick to excuse ourselves and manipulate them further.

Look, i can understand the need to keep info away from them that may actually harm them and cause a grief spiral, but can we come clean and explain less dangerous information, such as our full point of view and motivations when it comes to the kuras?

For example the fact that Sabrina suddenly trusts Oriko to not do anything bad despite the fact that she's only known them a week, as well as the fact that she's been trying her best to ease them into the idea of doing the same? Because that's all I've seen discussed in this thread so far - Ways of manipulating the other girls into accepting a person who they believe has wronged them.

Either take their side against Oriko, or explain to them that you're not on it and why.
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I agree.

Sabrina needs to take stand that, "No, I am not going to be a fucking jailer who keeps meguca prisoners as punishment. I will use captivity only as a last resort, for meguca who have shown themselves to be utterly uncooperative and unwilling to see reasons. Oriko got beaten, acknowledged she got beaten, and is not giving us trouble anymore. Kirika even comes along an helps on missions whenever we ask. So why the fuck should I keep her under house arrest, when I didn't do that to the girls in that other group who ripped up downtown and killed a bunch of people themselves and I let them off with a warning not to do it again?"

I mean, without the cursing, but with those feelings.
 
[X] SaltyWaffles

If we're trying to appease a dissapointed Momura here, why not vote for what dissapointed Homura whats? :V
(But no srsly why not at least try making a lie detector)
 
So I'm not sure it would be worth mentioning, but we could share that we actually got a straight answer out of Oriko about her own willingness to not go out there and Make Hard Decisions again.

She gives you a razor thin, edged smile. "Generally, you do a good job of preventing it. But very rarely..." Sea-green eyes flick over to regard you steadily.

She means you.

You worry at your lower lip. "What do you do that makes that happen?"

"I take matters into my own hands, to preserve your chances of success. I manipulate, I deceive, and I kill," Oriko says with another mirthless smile. "Don't worry. It shouldn't be necessary."

You rock back in your chair. "What do I have to do to avoid that happening?"

"Do not alienate Akemi Homura," Oriko says, twisting her fingers through Kirika's hair. "Virtually anyone bar you, her and Kaname Madoka are... expendable. I doubt that you like the word, but it's simple fact."

"I don't like the notion, Oriko," you say, frowning. "And you know it."

Oriko shakes her head. "Don't spread yourself too thin."
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Oriko's convinced there's a big enemy out there and that we are needed to stop it, and that as long as we don't stretch ourselves to thin, she'll stay put. Basically.
 
Briefvoice said:
I agree.

Sabrina needs to take stand that, "No, I am not going to be a fucking jailer who keeps meguca prisoners as punishment. I will use captivity only as a last resort, for meguca who have shown themselves to be utterly uncooperative and unwilling to see reasons. Oriko got beaten, acknowledged she got beaten, and is not giving us trouble anymore. Kirika even comes along an helps on missions whenever we ask. So why the fuck should I keep her under house arrest, when I didn't do that to the girls in that other group who ripped up downtown and killed a bunch of people themselves and I let them off with a warning not to do it again?"

I mean, without the cursing, but with those feelings.
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That's a fine stance to take when interacting with Sayaka, who is, implicitly, demanding that we keep them imprisoned until she's satisfied, without offering any help. And while the best outcome here would be for Sayaka to figure out what satisfies her as redress for Oriko's actions, this is indeed a good place to draw a line if need be.

With Homura though, we're in a position where we're trying to justify keeping Oriko and Kirika alive and not in a freezer. If we shut her out like this, she's likely to backslide and do something extreme. I would be shocked if it were as extreme as killing them, but I wouldn't put it past her to steal their Soul Gems and stash them somewhere safe until she's satisfied they aren't a threat anymore.
 
Onmur said:
So I'm not sure it would be worth mentioning, but we could share that we actually got a straight answer out of Oriko about her own willingness to not go out there and Make Hard Decisions again.



Oriko's convinced there's a big enemy out there and that we are needed to stop it, and that as long as we don't stretch ourselves to thin, she'll stay put. Basically.
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Oh hey, there's that quote I was looking for earlier about us needing Madoka.

Also, didn't Oriko tell us that letting Homura know she want's us to work with her would be a really terrible idea?
 
Briefvoice said:
I agree.

Sabrina needs to take stand that, "No, I am not going to be a fucking jailer who keeps meguca prisoners as punishment. I will use captivity only as a last resort, for meguca who have shown themselves to be utterly uncooperative and unwilling to see reasons. Oriko got beaten, acknowledged she got beaten, and is not giving us trouble anymore. Kirika even comes along an helps on missions whenever we ask. So why the fuck should I keep her under house arrest, when I didn't do that to the girls in that other group who ripped up downtown and killed a bunch of people themselves and I let them off with a warning not to do it again?"

I mean, without the cursing, but with those feelings.
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True.

Even more pressing though, might be the need for Sabrina to face up to her own actions and inner nature. If her desires/goals aren't in line with what she tells her closest friends (beyond those facts that are dangerous to others), isn't she intrinsically misleading them for her own gain?

Whether or not it is right for her to do so, she must come to the realisation that she has been leading Homura and co on, and that she can either accept that nature as something she wants to be or do something about it.

Is Sabrina who she wants to be? If not, can she change that?

These are things that Sabrina needs to discover, and possibly discuss with others. Remember, the others aren't simpletons and don't deserve to treated as if they have nothing to add.

Sabrina should stop acting like she's above her friends and actually talk things out with them, maybe even discussing her more vulnerable aspects that she likes to hide.

She's been avoiding information that technically isn't dangerous to reveal, for no other reason than protecting her own ego/reputation/percieved emotional state.

Just my random thoughts.
 
matthew badger said:
One thing that consistently turns me off of this quest is that Sabrina has alternate goals from Homura, but repeatedly reassures her that she has her best interests at heart.
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We have different strategic goals, but in terms of our preferred ultimate outcome I don't think we're misaligned with Homura at all. We want Madoka to survive without having to ascend and leave Homura alone. If our actions actually do lead there, then everything we've said to Homura about wanting to help her will be completely validated, even if the path involves a lot of convincing Homura to give up on ideas.
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Apr 6, 2018 at 9:59 PM, finished with 135735 posts and 7 votes.
  • [X] Propose making a robust Grief-construct lie detector, testing it among yourselves, and having you and Homura question Oriko and Kirika with it. If it works, you can eliminate the question of trust altogether. You could even make questioning sessions a regular thing, if absolutely necessary.
    [X] If Sayaka isn't willing to provide escort for them, you will. You've done it before, after all, and things went well. Besides, you've already trusted Kirika to have your back in combat more than once--and she's performed above and beyond expectations every time.
    [X] Tracking suggestions/ideas.
    -[X] Mami: Ribbons.
    -[X] Sayaka: Mitakihara Avian Surveillance System.
    --[X] Could she hypnotize the local fauna into doing surveillance work? Not just on O&K, but for Mitakihara?
    --[X] Powers: Dr. Dolittle + Hypnosys + Mind-editting?
    --[X] Mami could help setting up an alarm system?
    --[X] Consult with Satomi?
    -[X] Asking Yuki to claim wherever we move O&K to, in addition to the place Homura picked?
    -[X] Hiring someone with appropriate powers, like Taniguchi?
    [X] Where to move O&K.
    -[X] The Kures' place?
    -[X] The warehouse Oriko had prepared?
    -[X] Anyone (Homu) has a place in mind?
    -[X] What to do with the Mikuni mansion? Propose having it sold, and using the money to repay the Mikis.
    [X] Mention: Plan to involve adults.
    -[X] Benefits include breaking down meguca isolation.
    -[X] In the long term, you want shrinks.
    -[X] For now, meguca parents:
    --[X] What would Sayaka feel...
    --[X] Telling the truth to her parents?
    --[X] Having Oriko confess her crime to them?
    [X] Thank Homura and Sayaka for hearing you out. (Hug Mami).
    -[X] Promise we'll be extra careful for their sakes.
    -[X] Offer to share information:
    --[X] Oriko's foreseen death.
    --[X] Oriko's fear of 'Feathers'; her demands of us.
    [X] Ask Homura for a moment in private.
    [X] Plan Acknowledge Wrongs Done
    [X] Oriko and Kirka decisions
    -[X] Set dates for defendants to speak, later determination of sentence.
    --[X] Must learn how to do this despite the powerful feelings and belief difficulties.
    -[X] Move them, adopt a proactive boundary approach to security? The techniques must generally apply to other Magical Girl security threats.
    --[X] Sentinel animals, magical radar, tripwires, proximity, pick an approach to develop first.
    --[X] Check in by phone and neighbors in addition to GPS. Lie detector enchantment inspections on demand.
    -[X] Oriko reacted positively to saving others. Our job is to train her thoroughly to that. Sayaka should determine progress.
    -[X] Community service isn't just fighting / working for us. Most of their outdoor time will be mundane charity work.
    --[X] We choose the circumstances, in this case to maximize empathy.
    -[X] Back to school for them, if we can find a safe way. Too much free time.
    -[X] Confinement in a dormitory setting. Others do not need to be prisoners. They must be cooperative informants.
    --[X] Daily Supervised trips outside, if no assigned social task.
    --[X] Designed until you are all satisfied.
    [X] More on the GENERAL topic of adult help now? Anri is still out there. We still need civic development assistance. Refugees are in mourning.
    -[X] Emotion is the defining feature of our powers. We need to get better at emotion. There is training.
    -[X] Ask alternatives. Ask preferences for how they want to see this happen.
    --[X] If Rionna aides us we have no way to cement those gains, or spread the help once she leaves.
    -[X] We interview and hire crisis intervention psychaitrists NOW. Therapists for emotional skills development next.
    -[X] Older Magical Girls might be worth contacting now? Tsubaki?
    -[X] Watch DVD. Also enchant a little. That soft rock is ready for other magic now...? Pass it around. Or try to transform it into various objects.
    --[X] Try to transform the enchnated rock into ice cube? A candle? Fruit? Imagine strongly
    -[X] Telepathy Hijiri. Offer caring invite. Ask where she is bedding down. We could be helping.
    [X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko about Ono and Kuroki.
    [X] Tracking:
    -[X] The same ribbon method that Mami used to track Anri should also work to let Sayaka track Oriko and Kirika. If they leave the areas we designate or break the connection, she'd know immediately.
    [X] Where to move them:
    -[X] Move back in with Kirika's parents? Would they accept their daughter's lesbian lover, even if she's rich?
    -[X] Oriko's warehouse hideout?
    -[X] What to do with Oriko's house?
    --[X] Does Sayaka want to burn it down? Only seems fair.
    --[X] Does Sayaka want to keep it? Only seems fair.
    --[X] Use it for refugee housing?
    --[X] Sell it to pay back all the people displaced by the apartment fire?
    [X] Regardless of O&K, the issues of a justice system are still something we need to address:
    -[X] Getting adults involved?
    -[X] Is this something Sayaka would want to share with her parents?
    --[X] Would she want Oriko to confess to them?
    -[X] Legal scholars? Maybe the Shizukis know somebody?
    -[X] We really do need a psychologist to try and rehabilitate people like Anri. We can't just imprison her for life, especially when meguca are effectively immortal. Have to try to cure her.
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Roomba said:
That's a fine stance to take when interacting with Sayaka, who is, implicitly, demanding that we keep them imprisoned until she's satisfied, without offering any help. And while the best outcome here would be for Sayaka to figure out what satisfies her as redress for Oriko's actions, this is indeed a good place to draw a line if need be.

With Homura though, we're in a position where we're trying to justify keeping Oriko and Kirika alive and not in a freezer. If we shut her out like this, she's likely to backslide and do something extreme. I would be shocked if it were as extreme as killing them, but I wouldn't put it past her to steal their Soul Gems and stash them somewhere safe until she's satisfied they aren't a threat anymore.
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I don't know, i'd be pretty offended if i knew my friends were hiding their true intentions from me because they were afraid i'd overreact if i found out.

This is not a case of how to ensure the best reaction form Homura, but instead one of coming clean and revealing the true state of our friendship with her. Whether or not she acts maturely to that reveal we can only speculate on, but i do think it's necessary for us to properly work together in the future.

And part of it is living up to Sabrina's ideal of being a force of good, who doesn't take the easy way out in securing victory.

If we decide to do the wrong things (manipulating friends and hiding our true thoughts regarding them) for the right reasons, are we any better than kyubey in the end?
 
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