Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
Omniatrix said:
I would be 100% for Kaizuki, if it weren't for the



line.

Opening with the general cases and questions of talking to adults was not manipulative. It could reasonably have come off as manipulative, as it appears to have, but it was entirely sincere and was placed where it was in the conversation for reasons that (at least as far as I was aware, perhaps I was misreading intentions) didn't even include getting Sayaka to agree to something in the general sense and then trying to apply it to Oriko.

There are arguments to be made that any attempt to plan a conversation to the degree that we do could be considered manipulative. However, Sayaka doesn't seem to be in the mood to examine nuanced distinctions in this situation, and I worry that saying that it was manipulative is going to leave her thinking it was a considerably more calculated action of manipulation that it actually was. The conversation was ordered based on general thoughts about it flowing better and being a good way to lead into a discussion, not based on getting Sayaka to follow a particular line of thinking that influenced her opinion. It was structured in such a way that it seemed like were were trying to manipulate her, which we absolutely should apologize for, we should have noticed that and done something different. But we weren't trying to manipulate her, and we shouldn't be apologizing for something we weren't doing, especially when it's going to make her sure we were doing it.

It's the difference between bumping into someone and apologizing for not seeing them versus apologizing for shoulder-checking them. Despite actually hitting them, if you apologize for shoulder-checking them, it's going to come off as entirely more intentional. No matter how much remorse you show, you'll still come off as more of a dick for intentionally wanting to hit them and only repenting after being called out as opposed to being careless and inattentive in the first place.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

*some guy tells me to revert a line to what GW wrote*

Uhhhhhh... sure! Okay. Done. Edited.
 
Oh, okay, thanks. I was expecting a lot more pushback on that. I'm not sure why.

[x] Kaizuki
 
Ah, any possibility of change about the

Kaizuki said:
you'd accept suggestions
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

line to "you'd really appreciate suggestions" or something like that, thing? Or any thoughts about the appropriateness or lack thereof of keeping the ooc-note thing? Been leaning towards your vote, but I was waiting on an answer to if you were going to address either of those questions before changing over...
 
mCooperative said:
Ah, any possibility of change about the



line to "you'd really appreciate suggestions" or something like that, thing? Or any thoughts about the appropriateness or lack thereof of keeping the ooc-note thing? Been leaning towards your vote, but I was waiting on an answer to if you were going to address either of those questions before changing over...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

OH, good catch. That's what was bugging me about that. Yeah, let me overhaul that area -- thoughts?

Also going to preserve the meta note from GW, because it's kind of right.

[X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
[X] You're doing the thing where you fail to actually answer her question again, aren't you?
[X] The full explanation for that is going to be a little long but needs to happen. There's a lot of background. Before that, apologize to Sayaka -- You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look.
[X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
[X] Go over your metaknowledge of Oriko's pre-contracting background in detail. Cover all the traumas and their impacts on her. This might take a while but it needs to be done and it needs to be done thoroughly. Two goals: humanizing Oriko, making it clear that the house arrest is Not Good For Her. Also, cover the contents and context of her wish.
[X] Cover what you believe about the (mal)function of Oriko's precognition, stemming from her traumas and background.
[X] Cover Kirika's wish, its results, what you said about it to Oriko in On A Rail 31, her reaction, and the implications involved in all of it.
[X] The house arrest is unhealthy and problematic, and you would like to set up some different arrangement if they (M, H, S) will accept it. That doesn't mean that O&K should just be free to do whatever they want or etcetera -- but you have some thoughts on alternatives, and if they (M, H, S) have any ideas you'd really like to hear them.
-[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
-[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
-[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
-[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
-[X] Continued community service.
-[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
-[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
[X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
 
BTW, an old one, but...

"So, Oriko. You told me that I would end this, one way or another, and that you wouldn't be around to see it," you murmur. "My question, then, is why? Why are you so fixated on dying?"

"I see the future, Sabrina," Oriko says. "There's no room for me in it."

"And that means... what, exactly?" you ask. "Do you explicitly see yourself dying?"

"No," Oriko admits. "I simply don't see myself, past a certain point."

[] Write-in

=====

Perception without comprehension-
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

[Q] Bail on this conversation.
-[Q] Go to Oriko's.
--[Q] "It's about time I explain all these things I really should have told you years ago, that would've really helped you along the way."
---[Q] Tell Oriko all about metaknowledge.
----[Q] "... So yes, KB always targets you when you're suicidal and then your wish- exactly, so this limits your visions but you can still fully unlock your powers by overcoming your traumas... It's really all your family's fault, really and- yes, exactly, the power of lesbians always saves the day... aaaaand I knew all this the whole time!"
-----[Q] "Oh also, I literally got wog that you were just misinterpreting your visions."
 
[X] Kaizuki

[JK] Freak out and talk reallyreallyfastsinceyoudon'twanttolooseSayaka'sfriendshipwaaahMamiIneedhugs:(
 
HeroCycle said:


Goal state: Move Oriko and Kirika into "General Population" confinement.

Rationally, does our interest not boil down to two items, only?
- Save Oriko, now is a good time, and benefit from her help more.

- Build the relations between our partners, right here. We must learn to disagree, yet be effective.

---Other items have become secondary, due to mishandling.

Emotions are more important than pure logic, the way this interaction is going.

I think Magic can help.

We should do a group enchant, as a way to communicate feelings directly. We have the option to get around mis-communication.

Explaining while under the influence will let us reach a better accord.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

[QUOTE="mCooperative, post: 10439745, member: 21643"]I respectfully disagree, and feel like suggesting this may be taken as a) invasive, and b) a way to try and take a 'shortcut' out of actually explaining ourselves. Even though it [i]is[/i] liable to be more [i]full[/i] communication, it's also asking for a [i]lot[/i] of trust and intimacy in order to, in essence, get a lot of very personal information about everyone here in order to 'attack' weak points, and also take the burden of explaining our intentions off ourself and instead pass around to everyone else the burden of how [i]they[/i] need to put in the effort to understand where [i]we[/i] (and by extent O&K) are coming from. Which is super confrontational and blame-shift-y. Or that is how it is not unlikely to come across, I think [i]particularly[/i] to Homura, given how she guards her emotions. Actually, this is, in its way, similar to the argument I see in Steven Universe fanfic about using fusion as a tool to get around communication issues, and it misses some of the same points: namely, as much as communication is good, people also have a right to [i]not[/i] share literally all of their heart, or anything else highly personal, if they're not comfortable doing so.

... also, I will also confess it sounds a lot like the argument of "everyone is more honest while drunk or high", which, while probably not what you're going for, is a rather unfortunate implication.

[size=1]Edit: added a few things for clarity[/size]



Agreed.[/QUOTE]

This doesn't sound like my intent at all? There are several good reasons to suggest a group enchant. It isn't (and for Mami's sake! won't) grant either party a shopping trip through the other's memories. What it will do, in spades, is grant validation. We seem to be running short on that here.

As I see it, Sayaka would be better off if she was [U]certain[/U] her emotions are being received. Positive empathy is the simple measure for that, but we can't just say "Anger! Yess! We are angry also!!" So she is uncomfortable not finding that, among our "reasoning" and "correct ideas." It's pretty realistic, IMHO.

What if she could know for sure where our empathy was? This can happen in PMAS. Magic can temporarily wire our emotions side-by-side. That isn't a form of manipulation. It is direct truth. I think having that level of certainty would let her regain calm, and stop putting on threat displays.

My concept doesn't even have a position that she would be 'manipulated in to.' My goal is a different grade of confinement, but only that.

If we explain to everyone why we ask to do that change, letting them inspect our emotions at the same time can only be easier. She can feel our consistent morality, while at the same time our empathy for her now, and in a larger future sense are real, and balance.

We still have to talk. But this "shortcut" gets us into a position of intimacy that ensures honesty.

Thus, I think group enchanting should be a regular way to have us grow stronger understanding. We might build emotional skills on this route, too. Madokami grant us progress on that.

I think all concerned would be able to not swamp Homura. Madoka isn't within the scope, that was settled with words already. Further, it isn't an environment that would make this compulsory. Since this event is all about Sabrina ATM, it would buy her a option to 'spectate' more so than a pair contact. Homura would probably really value the opportunity to be on more equal terms regarding Sabrina's information gap, so gaining 'proof' to go along with her 'trust' of emotional insight might motivate her.


Your last line - wasn't really in my consciousness. Amusing notion, though! Funny, because impaired people don't work that way when I see them? lol!
The thing I'm going for is a "truth spell" instance from the side-effect.
Sorry to present incorrectly.
 
Given how intimate and intrusive magic-merging is, I don't think any of the others would be comfortable with the idea.
 
Kaizuki said:
Oh! Hey, @AuraTwilight, get me that thing where Oriko's dad killed her mom, would you? I feel like that should go in here under one of the existing lines.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

what

Onmur said:
For context: A 7-5-3 is a japanese rite of passage for kids; for boys it's performed when they're 3 and when they're 5, while for girls it's when they're 3 and 7.

(Oh, that's why I assumed Oriko's mom had died when Oriko was three, in my sleep addled state.)

In this panel:
Oriko bumps into her uncle (her father's brother) and confirms they haven't seen each other since her mom died, eight years before.

Assuming Oriko's age at around 15, this means her mom died when she was 7.

Near the end of the volume three, while Oriko's freaking out over her visions, Kirika finds Hisaomi's journal. The pages she opens contain notes about Oriko's 7-5-3 and about picking up Yurako (his wife, Oriko's mom)'s parents at a station.


Then, what follows after the two next pages showing Oriko freaking out in despair:



... Kirika declaring Hisaomi as 'Oriko enemy'.

For a manga that likes to drop subtle hints all around the place, this is pretty damn blatant.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Onmur said:
Also for fuck's sake, I just realized Oriko also has an aunt (called Sumi) on her father's side.

An aunt. Not distant family, an aunt.

And guess what, she also cut off connection not only with Oriko, but with Kimihide (Oriko's uncle) after Hisaomi's death... because it would've been bad for them to be seen together after Hisaomi's scandal.

She's shown catching up with Kimihide during the events of Oriko's side story:

The more I re-read this thing, the more I realize Oriko's family needs to burn in hell.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

...

[] Telepathy Oriko.
-[] "Your family fucking sucks, and they should all burn in hell. You're ten times the person that they all are put together."
--[] "Anywho, with that said, gotta go. Trying to convince Homu and Saya to cut you some slack. BRB."
Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Mar 31, 2018 at 3:18 AM, finished with 206 posts and 31 votes.
  • [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] Take a moment to calm down. Apologize to Sayaka. You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look. Offer cleanses.
    [X] Make it clear that you won't do anything different regarding O&K without express agreement from the entire group.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Establish your motives. Explain that you knew about O&K, just like the others. That your knowledge includes things that have been or could have been. Describe events feeding into Oriko's self-destructive approach to "heroism", and how your metaknowledge indicates she would only act if she thought it would be self-sacrificingly "heroic". Apparently whoever it was that gave you that knowledge made sure that you couldn't help but feel empathy for Oriko, despite her attacking you and your friends.
    [X] Establish your position. House arrest keeps Oriko in place she found her father's body. Justice is one thing, that is something else. Your objections aren't over imprisonment or punishment, but that it be humane. House arrest also has only worked because Oriko has cooperated.
    [X] Establish situation. The people involved, the limitations on our actions, our options for handling O&K, and the ramifications of those options. (See below the vote for details on this.) Don't delve into Homura's concerns, she knows them and doesn't want them brought up.
    [X] Make proposal:
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] Make it clear you'd accept suggestions. This isn't "my way or the highway".
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] You're doing the thing where you fail to actually answer her question again, aren't you?
    [X] The full explanation for that is going to be a little long but needs to happen. There's a lot of background. Before that, apologize to Sayaka -- You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Go over your metaknowledge of Oriko's pre-contracting background in detail. Cover all the traumas and their impacts on her. This might take a while but it needs to be done and it needs to be done thoroughly. Two goals: humanizing Oriko, making it clear that the house arrest is Not Good For Her. Also, cover the contents and context of her wish.
    [X] Cover what you believe about the (mal)function of Oriko's precognition, stemming from her traumas and background.
    [X] Cover Kirika's wish, its results, what you said about it to Oriko in On A Rail 31, her reaction, and the implications involved in all of it.
    [X] The house arrest is unhealthy and problematic, and you would like to set up some different arrangement if they (M, H, S) will accept it. That doesn't mean that O&K should just be free to do whatever they want or etcetera -- but you have some thoughts on alternatives, and if they (M, H, S) have any ideas you'd really like to hear them.
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Since we have limited resources and people to handle this, and imprisoning meguca is expensive and difficult, meguca justice has to be about preventing further harm, not punishment. We applied that principle in Sendai, and it worked well. Like with Sendai, we don't have to like it, but it has to work, and it has proven itself so far.
    -[X] Emphasize to Sayaka the harm Sendai group caused over the years, and how light their "punishment" was. But the outcome was successful.
    -[X] Explain to Sayaka that, as misguided and wrong as Oriko's actions were, they were done with the intention of saving Sayaka's life from a threat she didn't understand and couldn't figure out how to deal with. One that Sayaka should already know is real and dangerous--it nearly killed her just before she contracted, after all.
    [X] To mollify Homura's concerns, propose making a robust Grief Lie Detector construct, and testing it yourselves. Propose using it to question Oriko and Kirika.
    [X] O&K suffering real harm right now. Meguca more vulnerable to emotional harm than anyone. Accommodations must be made, for their health.
    [X] Tone: Weary. Tired of fighting over this, and getting nowhere, over and over.
    [X] Walpurgisnacht is coming. There is a very real chance some of us will get hurt or die defending the city. Are Sayaka and Homura willing to let O&K help?
    [X] If so, then we'll owe them something for it, more than just locking them out of sight and throwing away the key.
    [X] But until that time, you're done talking about this. And sorry for bringing it up in the first place.
    [X] Ask Sayaka, as a personal favour, to give some thought to what she wants from Oriko. Actual thought and deliberation, and not a snap judgement made in anger. She might not see it, but this is for her own sake as well.
    [X] Thank them for listening to you. An additional, smaller thanks to Homura via telepathy.
    [X] Lean on Mami and rest. It's been a long day.
    [X] Proposal: exile the Kures to a desert island somewhere, maybe under a nondetection field.
    -[X] Oriko seemed to think something would assassinate her if she didn't stay close to us, but maybe the nondetection field would prevent that.
    [X] Proposal: send the Kures to Fukushima as prisoners.
    [X] Proposal: gem the Kures, hold their soul gems, store them (maybe in hammerspace?) until after Walpurgisnacht.
    -[X] Arguably this is their best chance of surviving the month.
    [X] Proposal: Sayaka, would beating them up make you feel better? We don't really like violence, but if this would solve the problem...
    [X] If none of this seems to work, back down and apologize.
    [x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
    [x] Lay out every fact you have.
    -[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
    --[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
    -[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
    --[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
    -[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best her power could find for that after you captured her.
    -[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
    -[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
    [x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
    [x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
    [X] Mami:
    -[X] Ask if she could track O&K like she did Anri. Homura or Sayaka could hold the other end?
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Ask to talk privately.
    -[X] Take a moment.
    -[X] I understand I'm pushing but how much? I can't help but think that if we go around detaining people indefinitely without at least a coherent policy on when do so, we're just as bad as any of the more exploitive magical girl groups out there. Is the line Arson? Assault? Things the media would call an act of terrorism? How much does intent matter?
    -[X] Talk about Oriko?
    --[X] Is there a middle ground between indefinite detention/execution and full liberty you can tolerate? Take her answer into account as much as possible.
    --[X] Ask if there's anything you can do, to help Homura trust you with this.
    ---[X] Tracking measures? If Homura could know where O&K are all the time?
    ---[X] Explain your views of Oriko? At length?
    --[X] Mention the problems with the house arrest. Psychological harm, long term viabilty, death by stir-crazyness induce gem blackening and subsequent cleanup not fitting the crime...
    --[X] Apologize for needing to put her through this.
    --[X] Ask her to consider it.
    [X] abstain
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Mar 31, 2018 at 6:12 PM, finished with 218 posts and 31 votes.
  • [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] Take a moment to calm down. Apologize to Sayaka. You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look. Offer cleanses.
    [X] Make it clear that you won't do anything different regarding O&K without express agreement from the entire group.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Establish your motives. Explain that you knew about O&K, just like the others. That your knowledge includes things that have been or could have been. Describe events feeding into Oriko's self-destructive approach to "heroism", and how your metaknowledge indicates she would only act if she thought it would be self-sacrificingly "heroic". Apparently whoever it was that gave you that knowledge made sure that you couldn't help but feel empathy for Oriko, despite her attacking you and your friends.
    [X] Establish your position. House arrest keeps Oriko in place she found her father's body. Justice is one thing, that is something else. Your objections aren't over imprisonment or punishment, but that it be humane. House arrest also has only worked because Oriko has cooperated.
    [X] Establish situation. The people involved, the limitations on our actions, our options for handling O&K, and the ramifications of those options. (See below the vote for details on this.) Don't delve into Homura's concerns, she knows them and doesn't want them brought up.
    [X] Make proposal:
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] Make it clear you'd accept suggestions. This isn't "my way or the highway".
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] You're doing the thing where you fail to actually answer her question again, aren't you?
    [X] The full explanation for that is going to be a little long but needs to happen. There's a lot of background. Before that, apologize to Sayaka -- You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Go over your metaknowledge of Oriko's pre-contracting background in detail. Cover all the traumas and their impacts on her. This might take a while but it needs to be done and it needs to be done thoroughly. Two goals: humanizing Oriko, making it clear that the house arrest is Not Good For Her. Also, cover the contents and context of her wish.
    [X] Cover what you believe about the (mal)function of Oriko's precognition, stemming from her traumas and background.
    [X] Cover Kirika's wish, its results, what you said about it to Oriko in On A Rail 31, her reaction, and the implications involved in all of it.
    [X] The house arrest is unhealthy and problematic, and you would like to set up some different arrangement if they (M, H, S) will accept it. That doesn't mean that O&K should just be free to do whatever they want or etcetera -- but you have some thoughts on alternatives, and if they (M, H, S) have any ideas you'd really like to hear them.
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Since we have limited resources and people to handle this, and imprisoning meguca is expensive and difficult, meguca justice has to be about preventing further harm, not punishment. We applied that principle in Sendai, and it worked well. Like with Sendai, we don't have to like it, but it has to work, and it has proven itself so far.
    -[X] Emphasize to Sayaka the harm Sendai group caused over the years, and how light their "punishment" was. But the outcome was successful.
    -[X] Explain to Sayaka that, as misguided and wrong as Oriko's actions were, they were done with the intention of saving Sayaka's life from a threat she didn't understand and couldn't figure out how to deal with. One that Sayaka should already know is real and dangerous--it nearly killed her just before she contracted, after all.
    [X] To mollify Homura's concerns, propose making a robust Grief Lie Detector construct, and testing it yourselves. Propose using it to question Oriko and Kirika.
    [X] O&K suffering real harm right now. Meguca more vulnerable to emotional harm than anyone. Accommodations must be made, for their health.
    [X] Proposal: exile the Kures to a desert island somewhere, maybe under a nondetection field.
    -[X] Oriko seemed to think something would assassinate her if she didn't stay close to us, but maybe the nondetection field would prevent that.
    [X] Proposal: send the Kures to Fukushima as prisoners.
    [X] Proposal: gem the Kures, hold their soul gems, store them (maybe in hammerspace?) until after Walpurgisnacht.
    -[X] Arguably this is their best chance of surviving the month.
    [X] Proposal: Sayaka, would beating them up make you feel better? We don't really like violence, but if this would solve the problem...
    [X] If none of this seems to work, back down and apologize.
    [x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
    [x] Lay out every fact you have.
    -[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
    --[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
    -[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
    --[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
    -[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best her power could find for that after you captured her.
    -[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
    -[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
    [x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
    [x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
    [X] Tone: Weary. Tired of fighting over this, and getting nowhere, over and over.
    [X] Walpurgisnacht is coming. There is a very real chance some of us will get hurt or die defending the city. Are Sayaka and Homura willing to let O&K help?
    [X] If so, then we'll owe them something for it, more than just locking them out of sight and throwing away the key.
    [X] But until that time, you're done talking about this. And sorry for bringing it up in the first place.
    [X] Ask Sayaka, as a personal favour, to give some thought to what she wants from Oriko. Actual thought and deliberation, and not a snap judgement made in anger. She might not see it, but this is for her own sake as well.
    [X] Thank them for listening to you. An additional, smaller thanks to Homura via telepathy.
    [X] Lean on Mami and rest. It's been a long day.
    [X] Mami:
    -[X] Ask if she could track O&K like she did Anri. Homura or Sayaka could hold the other end?
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Ask to talk privately.
    -[X] Take a moment.
    -[X] I understand I'm pushing but how much? I can't help but think that if we go around detaining people indefinitely without at least a coherent policy on when do so, we're just as bad as any of the more exploitive magical girl groups out there. Is the line Arson? Assault? Things the media would call an act of terrorism? How much does intent matter?
    -[X] Talk about Oriko?
    --[X] Is there a middle ground between indefinite detention/execution and full liberty you can tolerate? Take her answer into account as much as possible.
    --[X] Ask if there's anything you can do, to help Homura trust you with this.
    ---[X] Tracking measures? If Homura could know where O&K are all the time?
    ---[X] Explain your views of Oriko? At length?
    --[X] Mention the problems with the house arrest. Psychological harm, long term viabilty, death by stir-crazyness induce gem blackening and subsequent cleanup not fitting the crime...
    --[X] Apologize for needing to put her through this.
    --[X] Ask her to consider it.
    [X] abstain
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Mar 31, 2018 at 6:15 PM, finished with 218 posts and 31 votes.
  • [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] Take a moment to calm down. Apologize to Sayaka. You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look. Offer cleanses.
    [X] Make it clear that you won't do anything different regarding O&K without express agreement from the entire group.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Establish your motives. Explain that you knew about O&K, just like the others. That your knowledge includes things that have been or could have been. Describe events feeding into Oriko's self-destructive approach to "heroism", and how your metaknowledge indicates she would only act if she thought it would be self-sacrificingly "heroic". Apparently whoever it was that gave you that knowledge made sure that you couldn't help but feel empathy for Oriko, despite her attacking you and your friends.
    [X] Establish your position. House arrest keeps Oriko in place she found her father's body. Justice is one thing, that is something else. Your objections aren't over imprisonment or punishment, but that it be humane. House arrest also has only worked because Oriko has cooperated.
    [X] Establish situation. The people involved, the limitations on our actions, our options for handling O&K, and the ramifications of those options. (See below the vote for details on this.) Don't delve into Homura's concerns, she knows them and doesn't want them brought up.
    [X] Make proposal:
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] Make it clear you'd accept suggestions. This isn't "my way or the highway".
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] You're doing the thing where you fail to actually answer her question again, aren't you?
    [X] The full explanation for that is going to be a little long but needs to happen. There's a lot of background. Before that, apologize to Sayaka -- You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Go over your metaknowledge of Oriko's pre-contracting background in detail. Cover all the traumas and their impacts on her. This might take a while but it needs to be done and it needs to be done thoroughly. Two goals: humanizing Oriko, making it clear that the house arrest is Not Good For Her. Also, cover the contents and context of her wish.
    [X] Cover what you believe about the (mal)function of Oriko's precognition, stemming from her traumas and background.
    [X] Cover Kirika's wish, its results, what you said about it to Oriko in On A Rail 31, her reaction, and the implications involved in all of it.
    [X] The house arrest is unhealthy and problematic, and you would like to set up some different arrangement if they (M, H, S) will accept it. That doesn't mean that O&K should just be free to do whatever they want or etcetera -- but you have some thoughts on alternatives, and if they (M, H, S) have any ideas you'd really like to hear them.
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Since we have limited resources and people to handle this, and imprisoning meguca is expensive and difficult, meguca justice has to be about preventing further harm, not punishment. We applied that principle in Sendai, and it worked well. Like with Sendai, we don't have to like it, but it has to work, and it has proven itself so far.
    -[X] Emphasize to Sayaka the harm Sendai group caused over the years, and how light their "punishment" was. But the outcome was successful.
    -[X] Explain to Sayaka that, as misguided and wrong as Oriko's actions were, they were done with the intention of saving Sayaka's life from a threat she didn't understand and couldn't figure out how to deal with. One that Sayaka should already know is real and dangerous--it nearly killed her just before she contracted, after all.
    [X] To mollify Homura's concerns, propose making a robust Grief Lie Detector construct, and testing it yourselves. Propose using it to question Oriko and Kirika.
    [X] O&K suffering real harm right now. Meguca more vulnerable to emotional harm than anyone. Accommodations must be made, for their health.
    [X] Proposal: exile the Kures to a desert island somewhere, maybe under a nondetection field.
    -[X] Oriko seemed to think something would assassinate her if she didn't stay close to us, but maybe the nondetection field would prevent that.
    [X] Proposal: send the Kures to Fukushima as prisoners.
    [X] Proposal: gem the Kures, hold their soul gems, store them (maybe in hammerspace?) until after Walpurgisnacht.
    -[X] Arguably this is their best chance of surviving the month.
    [X] Proposal: Sayaka, would beating them up make you feel better? We don't really like violence, but if this would solve the problem...
    [X] If none of this seems to work, back down and apologize.
    [x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
    [x] Lay out every fact you have.
    -[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
    --[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
    -[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
    --[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
    -[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best her power could find for that after you captured her.
    -[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
    -[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
    [x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
    [x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
    [X] Tone: Weary. Tired of fighting over this, and getting nowhere, over and over.
    [X] Walpurgisnacht is coming. There is a very real chance some of us will get hurt or die defending the city. Are Sayaka and Homura willing to let O&K help?
    [X] If so, then we'll owe them something for it, more than just locking them out of sight and throwing away the key.
    [X] But until that time, you're done talking about this. And sorry for bringing it up in the first place.
    [X] Ask Sayaka, as a personal favour, to give some thought to what she wants from Oriko. Actual thought and deliberation, and not a snap judgement made in anger. She might not see it, but this is for her own sake as well.
    [X] Thank them for listening to you. An additional, smaller thanks to Homura via telepathy.
    [X] Lean on Mami and rest. It's been a long day.
    [X] Mami:
    -[X] Ask if she could track O&K like she did Anri. Homura or Sayaka could hold the other end?
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Ask to talk privately.
    -[X] Take a moment.
    -[X] I understand I'm pushing but how much? I can't help but think that if we go around detaining people indefinitely without at least a coherent policy on when do so, we're just as bad as any of the more exploitive magical girl groups out there. Is the line Arson? Assault? Things the media would call an act of terrorism? How much does intent matter?
    -[X] Talk about Oriko?
    --[X] Is there a middle ground between indefinite detention/execution and full liberty you can tolerate? Take her answer into account as much as possible.
    --[X] Ask if there's anything you can do, to help Homura trust you with this.
    ---[X] Tracking measures? If Homura could know where O&K are all the time?
    ---[X] Explain your views of Oriko? At length?
    --[X] Mention the problems with the house arrest. Psychological harm, long term viabilty, death by stir-crazyness induce gem blackening and subsequent cleanup not fitting the crime...
    --[X] Apologize for needing to put her through this.
    --[X] Ask her to consider it.
    [X] abstain
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Firnagzen on Mar 31, 2018 at 9:18 PM, finished with 221 posts and 32 votes.
  • [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] You're doing the thing where you fail to actually answer her question again, aren't you?
    [X] The full explanation for that is going to be a little long but needs to happen. There's a lot of background. Before that, apologize to Sayaka -- You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Go over your metaknowledge of Oriko's pre-contracting background in detail. Cover all the traumas and their impacts on her. This might take a while but it needs to be done and it needs to be done thoroughly. Two goals: humanizing Oriko, making it clear that the house arrest is Not Good For Her. Also, cover the contents and context of her wish.
    [X] Cover what you believe about the (mal)function of Oriko's precognition, stemming from her traumas and background.
    [X] Cover Kirika's wish, its results, what you said about it to Oriko in On A Rail 31, her reaction, and the implications involved in all of it.
    [X] The house arrest is unhealthy and problematic, and you would like to set up some different arrangement if they (M, H, S) will accept it. That doesn't mean that O&K should just be free to do whatever they want or etcetera -- but you have some thoughts on alternatives, and if they (M, H, S) have any ideas you'd really like to hear them.
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] Take a moment to calm down. Apologize to Sayaka. You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look. Offer cleanses.
    [X] Make it clear that you won't do anything different regarding O&K without express agreement from the entire group.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Establish your motives. Explain that you knew about O&K, just like the others. That your knowledge includes things that have been or could have been. Describe events feeding into Oriko's self-destructive approach to "heroism", and how your metaknowledge indicates she would only act if she thought it would be self-sacrificingly "heroic". Apparently whoever it was that gave you that knowledge made sure that you couldn't help but feel empathy for Oriko, despite her attacking you and your friends.
    [X] Establish your position. House arrest keeps Oriko in place she found her father's body. Justice is one thing, that is something else. Your objections aren't over imprisonment or punishment, but that it be humane. House arrest also has only worked because Oriko has cooperated.
    [X] Establish situation. The people involved, the limitations on our actions, our options for handling O&K, and the ramifications of those options. (See below the vote for details on this.) Don't delve into Homura's concerns, she knows them and doesn't want them brought up.
    [X] Make proposal:
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] Make it clear you'd accept suggestions. This isn't "my way or the highway".
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Since we have limited resources and people to handle this, and imprisoning meguca is expensive and difficult, meguca justice has to be about preventing further harm, not punishment. We applied that principle in Sendai, and it worked well. Like with Sendai, we don't have to like it, but it has to work, and it has proven itself so far.
    -[X] Emphasize to Sayaka the harm Sendai group caused over the years, and how light their "punishment" was. But the outcome was successful.
    -[X] Explain to Sayaka that, as misguided and wrong as Oriko's actions were, they were done with the intention of saving Sayaka's life from a threat she didn't understand and couldn't figure out how to deal with. One that Sayaka should already know is real and dangerous--it nearly killed her just before she contracted, after all.
    [X] To mollify Homura's concerns, propose making a robust Grief Lie Detector construct, and testing it yourselves. Propose using it to question Oriko and Kirika.
    [X] O&K suffering real harm right now. Meguca more vulnerable to emotional harm than anyone. Accommodations must be made, for their health.
    [X] Proposal: exile the Kures to a desert island somewhere, maybe under a nondetection field.
    -[X] Oriko seemed to think something would assassinate her if she didn't stay close to us, but maybe the nondetection field would prevent that.
    [X] Proposal: send the Kures to Fukushima as prisoners.
    [X] Proposal: gem the Kures, hold their soul gems, store them (maybe in hammerspace?) until after Walpurgisnacht.
    -[X] Arguably this is their best chance of surviving the month.
    [X] Proposal: Sayaka, would beating them up make you feel better? We don't really like violence, but if this would solve the problem...
    [X] If none of this seems to work, back down and apologize.
    [x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
    [x] Lay out every fact you have.
    -[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
    --[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
    -[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
    --[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
    -[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best her power could find for that after you captured her.
    -[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
    -[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
    [x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
    [x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
    [X] Tone: Weary. Tired of fighting over this, and getting nowhere, over and over.
    [X] Walpurgisnacht is coming. There is a very real chance some of us will get hurt or die defending the city. Are Sayaka and Homura willing to let O&K help?
    [X] If so, then we'll owe them something for it, more than just locking them out of sight and throwing away the key.
    [X] But until that time, you're done talking about this. And sorry for bringing it up in the first place.
    [X] Ask Sayaka, as a personal favour, to give some thought to what she wants from Oriko. Actual thought and deliberation, and not a snap judgement made in anger. She might not see it, but this is for her own sake as well.
    [X] Thank them for listening to you. An additional, smaller thanks to Homura via telepathy.
    [X] Lean on Mami and rest. It's been a long day.
    [X] Mami:
    -[X] Ask if she could track O&K like she did Anri. Homura or Sayaka could hold the other end?
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Ask to talk privately.
    -[X] Take a moment.
    -[X] I understand I'm pushing but how much? I can't help but think that if we go around detaining people indefinitely without at least a coherent policy on when do so, we're just as bad as any of the more exploitive magical girl groups out there. Is the line Arson? Assault? Things the media would call an act of terrorism? How much does intent matter?
    -[X] Talk about Oriko?
    --[X] Is there a middle ground between indefinite detention/execution and full liberty you can tolerate? Take her answer into account as much as possible.
    --[X] Ask if there's anything you can do, to help Homura trust you with this.
    ---[X] Tracking measures? If Homura could know where O&K are all the time?
    ---[X] Explain your views of Oriko? At length?
    --[X] Mention the problems with the house arrest. Psychological harm, long term viabilty, death by stir-crazyness induce gem blackening and subsequent cleanup not fitting the crime...
    --[X] Apologize for needing to put her through this.
    --[X] Ask her to consider it.
    [X] abstain
Click to expand...
 
Kaizuki said:
[X] Go over your metaknowledge of Oriko's pre-contracting background in detail. Cover all the traumas and their impacts on her. This might take a while but it needs to be done and it needs to be done thoroughly. Two goals: humanizing Oriko, making it clear that the house arrest is Not Good For Her. Also, cover the contents and context of her wish.
[X] Cover what you believe about the (mal)function of Oriko's precognition, stemming from her traumas and background.
[X] Cover Kirika's wish, its results, what you said about it to Oriko in On A Rail 31, her reaction, and the implications involved in all of it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
@Kaizuki, I'm having my doubts...

How should I put it - it's easy to villify someone who does bad thing like killing Madokas and burning down houses. It's hard to make their victims see them as human anymore.

Yes, your vote is aiming specifically to achieve this result.

But will Sayaka and Homura's patience hold? Will they listen?

Onmur has covered some clues from which he derived Oriko's situation. But that's an amount of detail that's frankly counterproductive to our goals. Because neither Homura nor Sayaka will see the point of following the breadcrumbs - we need to give them the conclusions we've reached, at most.

Something like:
-Just like I know things I can't be expected to know about you, so I know them about Oriko. And her life was horrible.
-Oriko's mother died when she was seven. What she suspects, is that it was an assasination. The truth is worse - her own father had arranged it, and she doesn't know.
-Her own family, a bunch of scumbags without exception, had cut off her and her father in the aftermath. She latched on on her father as a beacon of light who she believed would do no wrong... And then he was caught as a perpetrator of a scam.
-Once her father was taken, she was left without support, and a convenient target of a very public wrath. The Mikunis then did what they did best and pretended she didn't exist, again.
-And that's how Kyubey found her. Bereft of support, friends, or hope, she wished for one thing - to find a purpose for her life... And what's living when you don't have a purpose?
-What her precognition and wish had given her was not a purpose to live, but a path to having a death that isn't meaningless. Worse, while her precognition persisted - she had foreseen she is unlikely to survive even till Walpurgisnacht arrives, let alone beyond that.

So yeah... I think this is the level of detail we should get for her background, unless prompted for further detail.
 
I think the votes are going in the right direction, but Sayaka asked why we're doing this and we didn't really answer her. I think it would be good if we explicitly answer the why, i.e. say that the current arrangement is life threatening for Oriko, before all of the long explanations, as to how this came to be.
 
The Narrator said:
Given how intimate and intrusive magic-merging is, I don't think any of the others would be comfortable with the idea.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

The concept has plenty of 'romantic' appeal, much as the power of flight might. It's a standard way for small groups of magic users to act as a unit, across many fictions.

Oh, still not a witch.

HeroCycle said:


Goal state: Move Oriko and Kirika into "General Population" confinement.

Rationally, does our interest not boil down to two items, only?
- Save Oriko, now is a good time, and benefit from her help more.

- Build the relations between our partners, right here. We must learn to disagree, yet be effective.


Emotions are more important than pure logic, the way this interaction is going.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

[QUOTE="Guilop, post: 10443786, member: 5469"]I think the votes are going in the right direction, but Sayaka asked why we're doing this and we didn't really answer her. I think it would be good if we explicitly answer the why, i.e. say that the current arrangement is life threatening for Oriko, before all of the long explanations, as to how this came to be.[/QUOTE]
Already reduced to this?

The whole idea is that - we have got the notion that Oriko is in danger due to our own actions.
The chain of reasoning is not short and simple, perhaps the direct logic of endangering others with arson is more compelling? Doesn't make us wrong, but that means we have to go uphill to demonstrate utility.
I think the other concept is that we are calling 'now is the time to do it.'
That is more direct, but emotion is blocking the path. Anger and Fear never lend themselves to reflection, self restraint and careful balance.

Are we asking an angry girl, and a fearful girl, to put those aside?

Thus, the steps to make the rational discussion are not as easy for us, as the instigating party. Neither really has a major stake in this sort of morality, compared to their own emotional goals.

My concept of trying for much higher emotional interaction is one way to consider this.

How else to we answer their emotions with more than lip-flap? I want Sayaka to be satisfied. In any real circumstance, we could let her cool off, and that would become less of an argument. Homura is loaded with fear, and I want her to gain more safety in material terms, as well as reduced PTSD. It is the linchpin of our big plans, at least IMHO. "Greater Mitakihara," our change-the-world-in-progress, exists in part exactly to create a vast security blanket for her. (Covering Madoka.)

Both issues would ordinarily require more time.
 
Last edited:
So... if we were to answer why are we doing this... I think we have a few reasons. Some more unmentionable than others. :/

One would be that we're trying to 'fix everything' -to a reasonable extent. Oriko's already fallen on our radar has been picked up by our 'fixing everything' thing. Really, she got herself 'being fixed' rights basically by force; she made herself our enemy, our problem, and we accepted that. So we want to 'fix' her as best as we can.

This is compounded by another reason we want to help Oriko, and it's that we are literally the only one who both wants to and can do so. Kirika surely wants to help Oriko much more than we want, but if it weren't for us, they would both be dead. We're basically somewhat forced to take responsibility for Oriko's life because there's nobody else who wil, even though there's plenty of people who should...

Which leads to yet another reason which compounds that, and it's that we know how damned tragic Oriko's life has been, and not only that, but how hard she still tries to do the right thing despite everything. Add to that the fact we know it's possible for Oriko to overcome all of it and it's no wonder we want to help. We know we have a chance to stop a horrifying tragedy and help it end up relatively well.

And finally, the answer that would turn Sayaka into an enemy and would kick over the foundations we've been carefully laying down, supporting Homura's psyche, Oriko's our friend. Of course this wasn't a valid reason back when we fought, but I think it's really all the reason we need now.


EDIT: I somehow forgot the main reason I wrote this post:

Sheer investment. Oriko burned down Sayaka's home exactly because she knew it was wrong (and would achieve something good through it). She wanted us to kill her for it, quite literally asked. Repeatedly.

It's taken us a lot of time, trust (from Homura), effort and even tears to talk Oriko out of it, and then to do so again and again.

We've been painstakingly making progress on getting her out of her suicidal behavior and into a healthier mindset. We could draw a progression:

Oriko status:
The world hates me yet I'm gonna do good and die trying -> I'm not allowed to die yet so I'll just try to help until then -> MY SOUL IS PAAAAAAAIN -> Maybe it's OK for me to be alive.

(Ironically, Oriko would be better off by throwing away the idea she needs to do good by everybody else. It's what she inherited from her father, and part of what causes all her problems.)

So maybe we're a tiny little bit invested in Oriko's survival and happiness.
 
Last edited:
HeroCycle said:
This doesn't sound like my intent at all?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I did not mean to say that it was- although looking over my post I may not have made that clear. When I said your suggestion "may be taken as" and "is not unlikely to come across" as invasive, a shortcut, etc, I meant only that: Even if we were to take your proposed course of action and ask them, in good faith, to group enchant specifically so we can be sure we all understand each other's emotions exactly, there is still the strong likeliness that it will seem like we are overstepping our bounds, as well as trying to manipulate the situation. From how I read the description of magic merging, it gives you a sense of who people are, who they are to you and the things that make them them.

It's Mami, saturating the world around you. Every good memory you've shared with her, every bad memory muted by the simple closeness the both of you enjoy. You can feel the faint terror of abandonment buried not so deep, and you can feel her adoration, the simple devotion to you. It calls to mind Mami, the hugs you share and the times she cried on your shoulder.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That's a level of emotions and intimacy that in my estimation a lot of people just straight up wouldn't want to share, communication be damned. And that's without it seeming like the intent of asking to share is so we can pinpoint what parts of their feelings are causing them to be reluctant to negotiate about Oriko, and use that insight as a weapon to try and talk them out of those emotions. Again, I know that is not what you are suggesting- but I think there is a strong chance it may come across that way, in the same way that attempting to start this whole conversation by bridging in from a related topic seemed to Sayaka like we were trying to manipulate her.

... and on a side note, I'm not confident in either our ability to make this suggestion as precisely tactfully as we'd need to in order to achieve the effect you wanted, nor am I confident that this would actually end up working like a truth spell sort of thing even if everyone agreed.

... I also apologize if I sound overly heated or accusative about this, because several parts of this idea are topics I have some pre-existing strong feelings about, some of which are why I'm so sure that there is so much likelihood suggesting it could be taken very badly. My first reaction was to take it very badly, which is why I took a moment before I wrote my first reply, and it looks like I still managed to not quite communicate what I meant. Again, my apologies.

Kaizuki said:
Yeah, let me overhaul that area -- thoughts?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

If you're still referring to the "you'd accept suggestions" part, I guess my original post got buried under everything else. Quoted below:

mCooperative said:
Can we have "you'd really appreciate suggestions" here or something similar? Because it seems that saying we'd accept suggestions is leaning into... seeming like Homura and Sayaka negotiating concessions from us. Which is not at all what we want to say, but I had a recent experience that makes it clear that is entirely a way "you'd accept suggestions" can come across, from someone even a little overbearing, especially in a tense situation, and if your brain latches onto the possibility, it's enough to be kinda rather upsetting. Also, honestly I think we really are at the point where we do kind of really really want Sayaka and Homura to give us suggestions so we have any hint of direction going forward.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Maybe "you'd really like suggestions, because the whole reason you brought this up is that even though the current solution has long term issues, you can't, don't want to presume what Homura and Sayaka want to do about it." But, uh, something less wordy, probably.

If that's not what you meant, can you clarify what sort of thoughts you were looking for, regarding what bit of vote?

Also:

[x] Kaizuki
 
Onmur said:
So... if we were to answer why are we doing this... I think we have a few reasons. Some more unmentionable than others. :/

One would be that we're trying to 'fix everything' -to a reasonable extent. Oriko's already fallen on our radar has been picked up by our 'fixing everything' thing. Really, she got herself 'being fixed' rights basically by force; she made herself our enemy, our problem, and we accepted that. So we want to 'fix' her as best as we can.

This is compounded by another reason we want to help Oriko, and it's that we are literally the only one who both wants to and can do so. Kirika surely wants to help Oriko much more than we want, but if it weren't for us, they would both be dead. We're basically somewhat forced to take responsibility for Oriko's life because there's nobody else who wil, even though there's plenty of people who should...

Which leads to yet another reason which compounds that, and it's that we know how damned tragic Oriko's life has been, and not only that, but how hard she still tries to do the right thing despite everything. Add to that the fact we know it's possible for Oriko to overcome all of it and it's no wonder we want to help. We know we have a chance to stop a horrifying tragedy and help it end up relatively well.

And finally, the answer that would turn Sayaka into an enemy and would kick over the foundations we've been carefully laying down, supporting Homura's psyche, Oriko's our friend. Of course this wasn't a valid reason back when we fought, but I think it's really all the reason we need now.


EDIT: I somehow forgot the main reason I wrote this post:

Sheer investment. Oriko burned down Sayaka's home exactly because she knew it was wrong (and would achieve something good through it). She wanted us to kill her for it, quite literally asked. Repeatedly.

It's taken us a lot of time, trust (from Homura), effort and even tears to talk Oriko out of it, and then to do so again and again.

We've been painstakingly making progress on getting her out of her suicidal behavior and into a healthier mindset. We could draw a progression:

Oriko status:
The world hates me yet I'm gonna do good and die trying -> I'm not allowed to die yet so I'll just try to help until then -> MY SOUL IS PAAAAAAAIN -> Maybe it's OK for me to be alive.

(Ironically, Oriko would be better off by throwing away the idea she needs to do good by everybody else. It's what she inherited from her father, and part of what causes all her problems.)

So maybe we're a tiny little bit invested in Oriko's survival and happiness.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Also, her behavior under house arrest has been pretty great so far. She hasn't tried to work around or back stab us despite several opportunities. And how many magical girls has she helped us save so far? Masami, Hiroko, Megane, the University girls, etc. So using her to save so many lives and then leaving her to stew in her house 24/7 unless we need her for something, despite being clearly detrimental to her health is, feels kind of Fd up. I mean, at the very least, it feels like we should let them out for short periods of time under very close supervision.

Of course, Homura wasn't okay with even that much. Which makes things somewhat problematic.
 
[X] Kaizuki
Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Mar 31, 2018 at 12:12 PM, finished with 216 posts and 31 votes.
  • [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] Take a moment to calm down. Apologize to Sayaka. You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look. Offer cleanses.
    [X] Make it clear that you won't do anything different regarding O&K without express agreement from the entire group.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Establish your motives. Explain that you knew about O&K, just like the others. That your knowledge includes things that have been or could have been. Describe events feeding into Oriko's self-destructive approach to "heroism", and how your metaknowledge indicates she would only act if she thought it would be self-sacrificingly "heroic". Apparently whoever it was that gave you that knowledge made sure that you couldn't help but feel empathy for Oriko, despite her attacking you and your friends.
    [X] Establish your position. House arrest keeps Oriko in place she found her father's body. Justice is one thing, that is something else. Your objections aren't over imprisonment or punishment, but that it be humane. House arrest also has only worked because Oriko has cooperated.
    [X] Establish situation. The people involved, the limitations on our actions, our options for handling O&K, and the ramifications of those options. (See below the vote for details on this.) Don't delve into Homura's concerns, she knows them and doesn't want them brought up.
    [X] Make proposal:
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] Make it clear you'd accept suggestions. This isn't "my way or the highway".
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] You're doing the thing where you fail to actually answer her question again, aren't you?
    [X] The full explanation for that is going to be a little long but needs to happen. There's a lot of background. Before that, apologize to Sayaka -- You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Go over your metaknowledge of Oriko's pre-contracting background in detail. Cover all the traumas and their impacts on her. This might take a while but it needs to be done and it needs to be done thoroughly. Two goals: humanizing Oriko, making it clear that the house arrest is Not Good For Her. Also, cover the contents and context of her wish.
    [X] Cover what you believe about the (mal)function of Oriko's precognition, stemming from her traumas and background.
    [X] Cover Kirika's wish, its results, what you said about it to Oriko in On A Rail 31, her reaction, and the implications involved in all of it.
    [X] The house arrest is unhealthy and problematic, and you would like to set up some different arrangement if they (M, H, S) will accept it. That doesn't mean that O&K should just be free to do whatever they want or etcetera -- but you have some thoughts on alternatives, and if they (M, H, S) have any ideas you'd really like to hear them.
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Since we have limited resources and people to handle this, and imprisoning meguca is expensive and difficult, meguca justice has to be about preventing further harm, not punishment. We applied that principle in Sendai, and it worked well. Like with Sendai, we don't have to like it, but it has to work, and it has proven itself so far.
    -[X] Emphasize to Sayaka the harm Sendai group caused over the years, and how light their "punishment" was. But the outcome was successful.
    -[X] Explain to Sayaka that, as misguided and wrong as Oriko's actions were, they were done with the intention of saving Sayaka's life from a threat she didn't understand and couldn't figure out how to deal with. One that Sayaka should already know is real and dangerous--it nearly killed her just before she contracted, after all.
    [X] To mollify Homura's concerns, propose making a robust Grief Lie Detector construct, and testing it yourselves. Propose using it to question Oriko and Kirika.
    [X] O&K suffering real harm right now. Meguca more vulnerable to emotional harm than anyone. Accommodations must be made, for their health.
    [X] Proposal: exile the Kures to a desert island somewhere, maybe under a nondetection field.
    -[X] Oriko seemed to think something would assassinate her if she didn't stay close to us, but maybe the nondetection field would prevent that.
    [X] Proposal: send the Kures to Fukushima as prisoners.
    [X] Proposal: gem the Kures, hold their soul gems, store them (maybe in hammerspace?) until after Walpurgisnacht.
    -[X] Arguably this is their best chance of surviving the month.
    [X] Proposal: Sayaka, would beating them up make you feel better? We don't really like violence, but if this would solve the problem...
    [X] If none of this seems to work, back down and apologize.
    [x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
    [x] Lay out every fact you have.
    -[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
    --[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
    -[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
    --[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
    -[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best her power could find for that after you captured her.
    -[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
    -[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
    [x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
    [x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
    [X] Tone: Weary. Tired of fighting over this, and getting nowhere, over and over.
    [X] Walpurgisnacht is coming. There is a very real chance some of us will get hurt or die defending the city. Are Sayaka and Homura willing to let O&K help?
    [X] If so, then we'll owe them something for it, more than just locking them out of sight and throwing away the key.
    [X] But until that time, you're done talking about this. And sorry for bringing it up in the first place.
    [X] Ask Sayaka, as a personal favour, to give some thought to what she wants from Oriko. Actual thought and deliberation, and not a snap judgement made in anger. She might not see it, but this is for her own sake as well.
    [X] Thank them for listening to you. An additional, smaller thanks to Homura via telepathy.
    [X] Lean on Mami and rest. It's been a long day.
    [X] Mami:
    -[X] Ask if she could track O&K like she did Anri. Homura or Sayaka could hold the other end?
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Ask to talk privately.
    -[X] Take a moment.
    -[X] I understand I'm pushing but how much? I can't help but think that if we go around detaining people indefinitely without at least a coherent policy on when do so, we're just as bad as any of the more exploitive magical girl groups out there. Is the line Arson? Assault? Things the media would call an act of terrorism? How much does intent matter?
    -[X] Talk about Oriko?
    --[X] Is there a middle ground between indefinite detention/execution and full liberty you can tolerate? Take her answer into account as much as possible.
    --[X] Ask if there's anything you can do, to help Homura trust you with this.
    ---[X] Tracking measures? If Homura could know where O&K are all the time?
    ---[X] Explain your views of Oriko? At length?
    --[X] Mention the problems with the house arrest. Psychological harm, long term viabilty, death by stir-crazyness induce gem blackening and subsequent cleanup not fitting the crime...
    --[X] Apologize for needing to put her through this.
    --[X] Ask her to consider it.
    [X] abstain
Click to expand...

Adhoc vote count started by Madou Sutegobana on Mar 31, 2018 at 4:06 PM, finished with 218 posts and 31 votes.
  • [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] Take a moment to calm down. Apologize to Sayaka. You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look. Offer cleanses.
    [X] Make it clear that you won't do anything different regarding O&K without express agreement from the entire group.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Establish your motives. Explain that you knew about O&K, just like the others. That your knowledge includes things that have been or could have been. Describe events feeding into Oriko's self-destructive approach to "heroism", and how your metaknowledge indicates she would only act if she thought it would be self-sacrificingly "heroic". Apparently whoever it was that gave you that knowledge made sure that you couldn't help but feel empathy for Oriko, despite her attacking you and your friends.
    [X] Establish your position. House arrest keeps Oriko in place she found her father's body. Justice is one thing, that is something else. Your objections aren't over imprisonment or punishment, but that it be humane. House arrest also has only worked because Oriko has cooperated.
    [X] Establish situation. The people involved, the limitations on our actions, our options for handling O&K, and the ramifications of those options. (See below the vote for details on this.) Don't delve into Homura's concerns, she knows them and doesn't want them brought up.
    [X] Make proposal:
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] Make it clear you'd accept suggestions. This isn't "my way or the highway".
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Rules: Do not reveal loops, do not witchbomb, do not potential bomb. Do not interrupt others, break update for vote if a response is required that is not covered by this vote. Sabrina's tone should be calm, thoughtful, conciliatory. No braindamage, full serious mode.
    [X] You're doing the thing where you fail to actually answer her question again, aren't you?
    [X] The full explanation for that is going to be a little long but needs to happen. There's a lot of background. Before that, apologize to Sayaka -- You had honestly been wanting to establish general process for handling future events, and didn't think about how manipulative it might look.
    [X] Arrange for privacy for all four, by timestop or griefhax. If griefhax is used, employ grief fog to hunt down hidden Incubators within field.
    [X] Go over your metaknowledge of Oriko's pre-contracting background in detail. Cover all the traumas and their impacts on her. This might take a while but it needs to be done and it needs to be done thoroughly. Two goals: humanizing Oriko, making it clear that the house arrest is Not Good For Her. Also, cover the contents and context of her wish.
    [X] Cover what you believe about the (mal)function of Oriko's precognition, stemming from her traumas and background.
    [X] Cover Kirika's wish, its results, what you said about it to Oriko in On A Rail 31, her reaction, and the implications involved in all of it.
    [X] The house arrest is unhealthy and problematic, and you would like to set up some different arrangement if they (M, H, S) will accept it. That doesn't mean that O&K should just be free to do whatever they want or etcetera -- but you have some thoughts on alternatives, and if they (M, H, S) have any ideas you'd really like to hear them.
    -[X] Change imprisonment location. Add electronic security to location.
    -[X] Add mundane and magical tracking to O&K. Mami tracking ribbon and house arrest ankle tracker as concrete examples.
    -[X] Scheduled outings with guard(s) -- prisoners get yard time, after all.
    -[X] Bring up having a Sayaklone guard.
    -[X] Continued community service.
    -[X] Any anti-magic used on security measures, or other sort of break-out attempt, escalates our response and their punishment. Make this clear to O&K.
    -[X] If proposal is insufficiently punishing, ask what would be sufficient.
    [X] OOC meta-note: Take as much screen-time as needed to fully detail Sabrina's motives, position, and thoughts on the matter, even if it takes multiple updates or requires a time-skip to preserve proper story flow. We've repeatedly run into issues where Sabrina breezed through things that votes had intended to go over more fully, or had Sabrina act in ways counter to the intent of the vote, due to the "150 words of vague direction" limitation. I'm utterly ignoring that limitation here, because I think it would do vastly more harm than good to try to play wordgames instead of actually addressing the update.
    [X] Since we have limited resources and people to handle this, and imprisoning meguca is expensive and difficult, meguca justice has to be about preventing further harm, not punishment. We applied that principle in Sendai, and it worked well. Like with Sendai, we don't have to like it, but it has to work, and it has proven itself so far.
    -[X] Emphasize to Sayaka the harm Sendai group caused over the years, and how light their "punishment" was. But the outcome was successful.
    -[X] Explain to Sayaka that, as misguided and wrong as Oriko's actions were, they were done with the intention of saving Sayaka's life from a threat she didn't understand and couldn't figure out how to deal with. One that Sayaka should already know is real and dangerous--it nearly killed her just before she contracted, after all.
    [X] To mollify Homura's concerns, propose making a robust Grief Lie Detector construct, and testing it yourselves. Propose using it to question Oriko and Kirika.
    [X] O&K suffering real harm right now. Meguca more vulnerable to emotional harm than anyone. Accommodations must be made, for their health.
    [X] Proposal: exile the Kures to a desert island somewhere, maybe under a nondetection field.
    -[X] Oriko seemed to think something would assassinate her if she didn't stay close to us, but maybe the nondetection field would prevent that.
    [X] Proposal: send the Kures to Fukushima as prisoners.
    [X] Proposal: gem the Kures, hold their soul gems, store them (maybe in hammerspace?) until after Walpurgisnacht.
    -[X] Arguably this is their best chance of surviving the month.
    [X] Proposal: Sayaka, would beating them up make you feel better? We don't really like violence, but if this would solve the problem...
    [X] If none of this seems to work, back down and apologize.
    [x] Request timestop. Sayaka wants to decide when Oriko has been sufficiently punished? She gets to decide.
    [x] Lay out every fact you have.
    -[x] Explain the format of your metaknowledge: Pasts and futures that never happened and cannot happen, but that illustrate how people behave.
    --[x] Take care to communicate to Homura that you are not discussing her loops. Not every alternate past or future is about her.
    -[x] Oriko's history. The possible alternate Orikos and their stories.
    --[x] When you get to the part where Oriko killed Madoka, let Homura confirm that Madoka contracting would be game-over and refuse to explain further.
    -[x] All of your hypotheses about Oriko's psychology, how she was trying to commit honorable suicide, and how you're pretty sure the house arrest was the best her power could find for that after you captured her.
    -[x] The hole you've dug for yourself by not letting Homura execute her on the spot, why you need to resolve this before it tears the Mitakihara group apart and ruins everything.
    -[x] All of the possible courses of action you have for dealing with Oriko and mitigating this catastrophe. Exile, relocation, chaperones, whatever.
    [x] Leave nothing out. If it takes six hours, if Firnagzen has to write the quest's first material timeskip, so be it, we have timestop and we've fucked this up too often by trying to be open and honest while shouting through a 150-word-long garden hose.
    [x] So, Sayaka. What do you want to do?
    [X] Tone: Weary. Tired of fighting over this, and getting nowhere, over and over.
    [X] Walpurgisnacht is coming. There is a very real chance some of us will get hurt or die defending the city. Are Sayaka and Homura willing to let O&K help?
    [X] If so, then we'll owe them something for it, more than just locking them out of sight and throwing away the key.
    [X] But until that time, you're done talking about this. And sorry for bringing it up in the first place.
    [X] Ask Sayaka, as a personal favour, to give some thought to what she wants from Oriko. Actual thought and deliberation, and not a snap judgement made in anger. She might not see it, but this is for her own sake as well.
    [X] Thank them for listening to you. An additional, smaller thanks to Homura via telepathy.
    [X] Lean on Mami and rest. It's been a long day.
    [X] Mami:
    -[X] Ask if she could track O&K like she did Anri. Homura or Sayaka could hold the other end?
    [X] Homura:
    -[X] Ask to talk privately.
    -[X] Take a moment.
    -[X] I understand I'm pushing but how much? I can't help but think that if we go around detaining people indefinitely without at least a coherent policy on when do so, we're just as bad as any of the more exploitive magical girl groups out there. Is the line Arson? Assault? Things the media would call an act of terrorism? How much does intent matter?
    -[X] Talk about Oriko?
    --[X] Is there a middle ground between indefinite detention/execution and full liberty you can tolerate? Take her answer into account as much as possible.
    --[X] Ask if there's anything you can do, to help Homura trust you with this.
    ---[X] Tracking measures? If Homura could know where O&K are all the time?
    ---[X] Explain your views of Oriko? At length?
    --[X] Mention the problems with the house arrest. Psychological harm, long term viabilty, death by stir-crazyness induce gem blackening and subsequent cleanup not fitting the crime...
    --[X] Apologize for needing to put her through this.
    --[X] Ask her to consider it.
    [X] abstain
Click to expand...
 
um, we couldclarifywe're not trying to reduce their sentence? theway we're threating them maybe inhumane right now, because of circumstances, but that doesn't mean we can't give them a sentence AFTER they get better, does it?
 
So, we're trying to answer Sayaka's "Why?". There's a lot to say there, and @Kaizuki covers it extensively. In terms of an immediate answer though, how about something like "For the same reason I do everything I do. For the same reason I went to all this trouble for Anri instead of letting the Pleiades put her in a freezer indefinitely."?

Sayaka is quick to anger, and this anger is going to colour her understanding of everything we say. Could be useful to lead with a pointed statement that will shock her out of her self-righteous high. She had a very strong reaction to the idea of the freezer, and reminding her that she's treading dangerously close to the mindset that spawned it should make her deflate a bit and be more willing to actually listen.
 
I'm not sure what ways this angle may have been brought up so far or if it has, but what about this formulation?

"Punishing magical girls is a tightrope due to the need to monitor and take into account their emotional well being lest they die of blackened gem. Considering punishment should fit crime, magical girls unable to hunt and without cleansing die, the inability to get a realtime feed on Prisoners gems who aren't within 100 meters drives me crazy wondering if we unintentionally executed someone sometimes."
 
A potential line of discussion has occurred to me: Oriko's actions as, essentially, suicide by magical girl.

Whether by some subconscious death wish, the limits of her sight, or some greater plot, Oriko has been deliberately turning herself into the villain. If you believe her she's seen nothing in her own future but her death inside a month's time, and even if you don't, there's still the fact we had to work to talk her out of getting herself killed. She was pretty damn resigned to it at the time. Even since then she's been pretty passive in taking actions that actively fight fate and avoid getting herself killed. (Not telling us about Sayaka potentially killing her until after we brought the matter of introductions up comes to mind... though I'm not sure it's an example we can state.)


Hence, why we'd been considering therapy.

Beyond that, finding her disgraced father dead of suicide in her own house, and how she's talked about him with a fair degree of spite (her comments on the rosebushes for instance), might make a decent argument for letting her move elsewhere but I don't see much worth in including what is for the moment speculation.


Some seek control
By grabbing hold of their lives
In a futile attempt
To help themselves survive

She digs herself
Into a much deeper hole
Running from a fate
That she can never control

----

Footsteps diverge
From the path they once walked
Words are eclipsed
By the language they talked

Actions betrayed
By promises broken
Flames consume intentions
Best left unspoken
 
Last edited:
Agent Whiskers said:
Wasn't it also implied that the whole fight, with all the powers involved, would have also caused some sort of natural disaster?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Onmur said:
Just that it was gonna be lots og meguca groups being called to fight for both sides and lots and lots of people were gonna die in the cross fire.

And something about earthquakes, I think.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

It was said there would be significant casualties months down the line as a result if the fighting escalated, after we specifically inquired about the Fukushima nuclear reactors. The heavy implication was that the quakes would precipitate a Dai-Ichi meltdown in the medium term.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top