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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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I'm thinking about the O&K conversation and am considering a though:

Were we to bring up O&K in the context of bringing adults into the known about magic, would it make a difference whether we bring up O&K first, or whether we bring up adults first?

E.g.:

"Homura, Sayaka, what do you think should be done about Oriko?... When we bring adults into this, the Mikis will learn who burned your home, Sayaka, and the adult Kures will learn what their daughter and daughter in law did."

Compare to:

"We should bring the adults into the know. What do you think should be done about O&K?"

I think in the second case, we would be putting the idea in at least Sayaka's head, that her parents should be involved in deciding Oriko's punishment, while in the first case, Homura and Sayaka would probably feel more free to form opinions closer to in a vacuum, in which they don't need to weight in what would adults think.

In the hypothetical case we bring up adults and magic and O&K in this conversation, which would be the better order? (And what other main points need to be brought up? We kind of have a growing list of 'how to deal with Oriko' possibilities, but I think that's something we'd like to maybe present after getting opinions, so as to not colour the opinions we're given).
 
blast flame said:
We're talking about multiplying grief? Man the Incubators listening in must be e x c i t e d to see that experiment.
....
Well maybe not excited because of the not feeling emotions thing but whatever their closest equivalent is.
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Given the phrasing the Incuubator used to describe things in the show, energy collection may occur during the witch transformation, with grief merely being a hazardous byproduct of the hope--> despair+energy reaction

ideas for the future:
-see how grief manipulation interacts with quantum mechanics such as the uncertainty principle and virtual particles
-instead of forming macroscale weaponry, consider going the nanothorn route and mechanically dissassembling molecules
-normal matter creation technique: As the separation between the quarks grows, the energy added to the pair creates new pairs of matching quarks between the original two; hence it is impossible to create separate quarks. The explanation is that the amount of work done against a force of 10,000 newtons is enough to create particle-antiparticle pairs within a very short distance of that interaction
-One thing Sabrina seems to keep forgetting is that she doesn't need to see a Soul Gem to pull Grief out of it. During the spar with Yuki, her Grief senses could detect Yuki's soulgem in an isolated room. That should have been enough to pull the grief out of the gem to use for an attack
-Yuki has spatial warping techniques, these may be useful for modifying the volume of space within Sabrina's control radius
-Sabrina should see if she is capable of spatial warping
 
mastigos said:
Given the phrasing the Incuubator used to describe things in the show, energy collection may occur during the witch transformation, with grief merely being a hazardous byproduct of the hope--> despair+energy reaction
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If that were the case, why would Kyubey be interested in taking Sabrina's loose Grief?
 
Throwing this until I wake up.

[X] Mami
-[X] How does she feel about Oriko and Kirika?
-[X] Don't take Mami for granted.

[X] Telepathy Masami & Hiroko: Ono, Kuroki.

[X] Science session per vote in abeyance.
-[X] And try moving Grief though a higher dimensional axis.

[X] Homura and Sayaka
-[X] Talk about O&K:
--[X] Positive approaches; validate feelings.
--[X] Ask what they think about them, and what should happen with them.
--[X] Talk about everything that complicates the situation, good and bad.
--[X] Introduce the idea of adults being involved.
 
mastigos said:
manipulation and/or avoiding Sabrina accumulating enough Grief to start spawning world ending witches. Also experimentation with using Sabrina to sustain a higher-than-normally-possible magical girl population ...and those are just off the top of my head
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In the post-Madokami universe, the Incubators were getting energy from filled Grief Cubes. Substantially less then they were getting under the witch system, but they clearly were getting something from Grief.
 
SaltyWaffles said:
And then we'd have Homura and Sabrina question Oriko and Kirika with it, to lay to rest once and for all Homura's (rational) worries that Oriko will stab us in the back somehow.
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Do you swear to not kill Madoka? Or even hurt Madoka? Actually don't even look at Madoka, or get within a one-kilometer radius of Madoka. Do you swear to not do any of that?

No.

...
You have to swear not to kill Madoka.

This is the girl that ends the world, yes? If she contracts with Kyuubey, we have seven minutes forty-three seconds to smash her Soul Gem before she turns into a witch and destroys the world. A bit more if Sabrina is present.

This does not sound like an oath not to kill Madoka.

I will do whatever is necessary to preserve life on this planet.

Are you TRYING to get me to kill you?

It doesn't matter. There are no futures in which I survive.

Ugh.
How about you, Kirika? Do you swear to not kill Madoka?

I swear that I absolutely won't kill Madoka at all unless Oriko tells me to!

------

What I'm saying is, I don't think a lie detector test will help here.

(I'm not sure if I got the colors right but hopefully it's clear from context.)
 
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The Narrator said:
In the post-Madokami universe, the Incubators were getting energy from filled Grief Cubes. Substantially less then they were getting under the witch system, but they clearly were getting something from Grief.
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It's possible in that scenario that they actually got the power from the Cubes, not the Grief - Grief absorbtion would then be a property of the Cubes useful for maintaining the harvester (MG) population, not as energy.

It doesn't seem to be the case in PMAS, but it's a plausible alternate interpretation of canon, I think.

Analogy: Rags can be used to wipe up dust. They can also be burned. If my only fuel source is burning rags, and the rag collectors stop working when they get too dusty, it's in my best interests to let them wipe themselves off before giving me the rags, as long as the ash from the dust doesn't take much energy to sweep out of the furnace after burning the rags.
 
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Wirikidor said:
Do you swear to not kill Madoka? Or even hurt Madoka? Actually don't even look at Madoka, or get within a one-kilometer radius of Madoka. Do you swear to not do any of that?

No.

...
You have to swear not to kill Madoka.

This is the girl that ends the world, yes? If she contracts with Kyuubey, we have seven minutes forty-three seconds to smash her Soul Gem before she turns into a witch and destroys the world. A bit more if Sabrina is present.

This does not sound like an oath not to kill Madoka.

I will do whatever is necessary to preserve life on this planet.

Are you TRYING to get me to kill you?

It doesn't matter. There are no futures in which I survive.

Ugh.
How about you, Kirika? Do you swear to not kill Madoka?

I swear that I absolutely won't kill Madoka at all unless Oriko tells me to!

------

What I'm saying is, I don't think a lie detector test will help here.

(I'm not sure if I got the colors right but hopefully it's clear from context.)
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IIRC Oriko's position in this timeline is that Madoka (and Homura) are necessary to save the world.
 
I do have to inquire: why did the thread settle on the Kures and not the Mikunis?
 
Oriko actively hates her entire family that isn't her parents, and they're both dead. Also, society actively hates the Mikunis, such that being a Mikuni made Oriko the target of extreme mob abuse.
 
Onmur said:
I'm thinking about the O&K conversation and am considering a though:

Were we to bring up O&K in the context of bringing adults into the known about magic, would it make a difference whether we bring up O&K first, or whether we bring up adults first?

E.g.:

"Homura, Sayaka, what do you think should be done about Oriko?... When we bring adults into this, the Mikis will learn who burned your home, Sayaka, and the adult Kures will learn what their daughter and daughter in law did."

Compare to:

"We should bring the adults into the know. What do you think should be done about O&K?"

I think in the second case, we would be putting the idea in at least Sayaka's head, that her parents should be involved in deciding Oriko's punishment, while in the first case, Homura and Sayaka would probably feel more free to form opinions closer to in a vacuum, in which they don't need to weight in what would adults think.

In the hypothetical case we bring up adults and magic and O&K in this conversation, which would be the better order? (And what other main points need to be brought up? We kind of have a growing list of 'how to deal with Oriko' possibilities, but I think that's something we'd like to maybe present after getting opinions, so as to not colour the opinions we're given).
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Overall, we are trying to properly help all magical girls. I think that many of us agree our route to do this includes reversing the harmful social order Kyuubey has enabled, i.e. full autonomy for immature girl soldiers.
Selective restoration of parents can only be a wise attempt in the larger struggle to return to everyone the options they lost when they were divorced from majority culture.
Parents should be a factor to help with the universal weakness Magical Girls experience, fatal emotional instability. Well, Kirika obviously Wished for an exception. Sendai experiencing malaise is a typical example of girls lacking positive context. IRL, Rin would not be the ONLY person in a position to stabilize them all. Not every parent can handle a task like this, but most need no motivation to try. With the formation of a proper founding group, the adults can become effective all on their own. Sabrina can get her friends to kick this off.

######

I'm going to say that our necessary order is "fully involve adults in the System" first. Only once they understand how and why girls literally die from Grief, can we put mundanes into the jurisprudence role. Therefore, I don't think we can get any benefit from linking adults into the O&K discussion until we get that step in motion.

I do, strongly, expect us to make Sayaka think, research, choose and support her decision on what she wants from O&K. That needs time, and ultimately she will be a better person for doing that work. A Hero of Justice is normally concerned with the practical philosophy of enforcement, so this is her chance.
We should have that talk with her now.

Homura is certainly not ready for Justice now, she still has bigger fish to fry. We can only find accommodations with her absolute conditions, not change them. No negotiation, find her appeasement.

The first part is easy, sell her on the motive of rehabilitation via practice. Good works, i.e., the Kures gain a substantial amount of volunteer mundane charity involvement, as already cited. Thanks, @SaltyWaffles . They do this in the manner Homura determines, perhaps near but not in Mitakihara. That would keep her goals satisfied. I think she can agree, if and only if she can oversee them properly.

How?

Sabrina can help. Those who vote for chibis have been overlooking the real utility they offer? This is the force multiplier Homura needs. This would let Homura, herself, be the chaperone for Oriko's free time. She can insist they bring the small token Homura with them everywhere, so when Homura decides what the rules are, she can also measure compliance, and adapt to prevent expansion of privilege. By using an enchanted physical chibi, it could be very difficult to tell if it is "active" or not. A fine magical companion to the ankle monitor / GPS monitor. Sabrina can ride along too, if we think that is a sufficient nod to what Feathers wants us to do.

If we want to bypass the cuddles, our enchanted 'chibis' could be the traditional paper human doll from historical magic.

In the future, this could lead Homura to become able to think about Oriko as a living individual, not a boss monster. It allows them to 'hang out' in a twisted sort of way, and become familiar.
 
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Firnagzen said:
"Perhaps if we convince her that Oriko can be punished by... community service?" Mami suggests. Her tone suggests she doesn't think it too likely. "That her excursions with us are part of her sentence?"
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I wonder how much automation goes into the construction of a house anyway; i imagine that it needs to be mostly handled by machines, with some manpower for putting the smaller parts together and directing larger machines; could we use enchantment to handle the parts that would normally be automated and have her make it up to her by undoing her damages?
 
Spring may be happening where you are? I suggest that if you have the possibility, you put time into spectating at some construction site available to you. Even from the sidewalk, you are sure to learn things that might astound you.
In short, read "I, Pencil" and then multiply that. Construction uses vast inputs of all types. Experience the truth.


Oriko should be able to benefit from hands-on community service, I agree.


Prototypes:

[] Enchantment of a Grief holding object, and testing the capacity to keep some when outside our range. Grief kinesis as a 'magic,' alone.

[] Enchantment of arbitrary object, to act as a sensory extension. All five senses can be experienced from the location of this object, over large distances. Secondary goal, it can be 'logged in to' by girl other than the caster. (We make a prototype security monitor for Homura)

[] Introduce the idea of fully involving adults

[] Speak with Mami, Homura about hiring therapists. Need to start now. Hitomi is still awake, and at home. Relay to her

[] Sayaka tries to put a single 'power' and a certain 'runtime' of magic into an object. Mundane-use magic items with serious uses. (Invisibility token?)

[] Griefhax a speckled functional magic, "willpower training game." Sayaka can make one or more copies.
 
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Also because Kirika's meguca costume looks like the groom whereas Oriko's looks like the bride. But mainly because of the previous facts.
 
HeroCycle said:
Spring may be happening where you are? I suggest that if you have the possibility, you put time into spectating at some construction site available to you. Even from the sidewalk, you are sure to learn things that might astound you.
In short, read "I, Pencil" and then multiply that. Construction uses vast inputs of all types. Experience the truth.
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...the fuck? o_O
 
^ Given the invitation to answer his concerns that automation and machines were the significant part of construction, I decided to accept. Both first-hand observation and classic economic theory were mentioned. Both, from public domain sources.

It isn't PMAS, and I thought to quickly finish the digression. Please cooperate with my 'evil plan?'
The Narrator said:
...the fuck? o_O
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I, Pencil - Wikipedia
 
Marcus.D.Basterd said:
I wonder how much automation goes into the construction of a house anyway; i imagine that it needs to be mostly handled by machines, with some manpower for putting the smaller parts together and directing larger machines; could we use enchantment to handle the parts that would normally be automated and have her make it up to her by undoing her damages?
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There are bricklaying robots, and prefab components can be manufactured in automated factories but construction is still fairly manual if enabled by man multipliers like cranes and excavators and power tools.

Anyway, if you can get a foundation, walls and roof up by robot, wiring and plumping generally needs to be installed by hand. Insulation, ventilation, heating (if japan could stand to learn a lot about those)... Mostly by hand though processes are generally machine assisted. Installing a working kitchen is mostly manual labour f.instance.

You wanna put up a shack, that's easy to automate. A livable home has a lot of components, but there's plenty of options to make things easier since building homes is something that happens all the time.

Magic letd you cheat a lot, though, and automation research is progressing (and prefabs come in all sorts), so if you have money you can probably get a house entirely built by machines (would not want to live in one built entirely by machines today, though - emergent technologies have teething issues).

Also [amish barn raising youtube goes here]
 
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Jonen C said:
There are bricklaying robots, and prefab components can be manufactured in automated factories but construction is still fairly manual if enabled by man multipliers like cranes and excavators and power tools.

Anyway, if you can get a foundation, walls and roof up by robot, wiring and plumping generally needs to be installed by hand. Insulation, ventilation, heating (if japan could stand to learn a lot about those)... Mostly by hand though processes are generally machine assisted. Installing a working kitchen is mostly manual labour f.instance.

You wanna put up a shack, that's easy to automate. A livable home has a lot of components, but there's plenty of options to make things easier since building homes is something that happens all the time.

Magic letd you cheat a lot, though, and automation research is progressing (and prefabs come in all sorts), so if you have money you can probably get a house entirely built by machines (would not want to live in one built entirely by machines today, though - emergent technologies have teething issues).

Also [amish barn raising youtube goes here]
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The intention was that she would "only" be doing the work of the actual original construction workers who worked on the bulding, rather then the machine handlers since they wouldn't be doing any actual work on the house itself; my thoughts were that she had undone the work of the people who put the house together, but not the people who helped those people do their job, so she shouldn't need to do the work of the people and the machines/people using the machines, unless those people were using those machines directly to construct the house, since it's not like those people got retroactivly unhelped or something.
 
Marcus.D.Basterd said:
The intention was that she would "only" be doing the work of the actual original construction workers who worked on the bulding, rather then the machine handlers since they wouldn't be doing any actual work on the house itself; my thoughts were that she had undone the work of the people who put the house together, but not the people who helped those people do their job, so she shouldn't need to do the work of the people and the machines/people using the machines, unless those people were using those machines directly to construct the house, since it's not like those people got retroactivly unhelped or something.
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Building a building is MANY man hours of labour.

Excepting excavators (who usually work before construction starts in earnest), most machine operators will be directly cooperating with one or two other workers on site.
 
Jonen C said:
Building a building is MANY man hours of labour.

Excepting excavators (who usually work before construction starts in earnest), most machine operators will be directly cooperating with one or two other workers on site.
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Well we can probably safely compensate for the lack of backups with magic, so that shouldn't be a problem, and compressing the man hours should be doable with some low level passive healing to let her work harder without slowing down, and if we keep the parts she will be putting together easy to use it should work, even if it doesn't get done for a long time. It doesn't even matter if it gets done in enough time to be viable; this is being done so that she has a definitive end to the debt what she has done has put on her, because if she doesn't then the bluenet whos name escapes me right now doesn't see one tht she can't argue against she will default to hating and wanting to punish her forever.
 
Onmur said:
Seemed to be a possibility, what with Anri not answering at all. Perhaps it's something we should test.
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Nah, she did hear it. I've mentioned it before, but you get a vague sense of the other person when talking to them is telepathy, akin to the feeling you get when there's someone else in the room even if you're not looking at them. And you did get that sense of Anri.
The Phoenixian said:
@Firnagzen What time is it?
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It's four-ish.

Now, votes please! :p
 
Firnagzen said:
Kaoiske
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But what if... Kaioske?!

What if Kwyjibo was a kai?! :o

Skelm said:
IIRC Oriko's position in this timeline is that Madoka (and Homura) are necessary to save the world.
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Sabrina and Homura, as far as I remember. I don't remember Madoka being part of that.

obssesednuker said:
I do have to inquire: why did the thread settle on the Kures and not the Mikunis?
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To expand on Aura's answer, someone earlier mentioned the possibility of putting O&K under custody of family.

If we did that, that would necessarily mean the Kures, and under no circumstances the Mikunis. Ever.

The Mikuni family is a branch of a larger family mostly dedicated to politics which is portrayed as Actually Always Evil.

Mikuni Hisaomi, Oriko's father, was basically the black sheep of the family in that he was humble, honest, and wanted to actually do good.

Around the time Oriko was three years old, her mom Yurako, Hisaomi's wife was killed in a car accident. At least it's supposed to have been an accident.

(Note: The doctors let little Oriko see Yurako's mostly covered corpse. Because. That was the moment Oriko decided she couldn't a child anymore and must've become a supporting pillar for her dad.)

At some point in between Yurako's death and canon Hisaomi basically succumbed to the family alignment and, in Kirika's paraphrased words, became Oriko's worst enemy all the while maintaining a facade of being Good and Wanting To Save The World. Which Oriko ate up and which became her life goal.

Now, Oriko's family was so Evil, Oriko could basically tell at three years old, and after Yurako's death, the whole of her extended family was pretty much creeped out by Oriko's non-child-like behavior and they didn't exactly offer a helping hand.

In fact, once Hisaomi's illegal dealing were uncovered and he hung himself, maybe to escape his own shame, maybe in a misguided attempt to protect his daughter from the public's reactions, literally nobody of his family showed up to his funeral, not even his brother.

We've seen that Oriko is alone. Oriko has tons of relatives, some of which she even crosses paths with on the street now and then, and literally none of them cared to check how she was doing. If anything, most of them might still be scared of her, and others might admire her a bit, but are too busy dealing in politics to want to have anything with her.

The only one person Oriko has is Kirika, whereas if you just looked at the size of Oriko's family, you would think someone would have taken her in. But no, that's just a lot of people who abandoned her.

In conclussion, Oriko better be a Kure than a Mikuni. The Mikuni don't deserve her anyway.
 
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