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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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Actually, do we know for sure that Valaya is against Necromancy? I mean, yes, we know that Gazul and the Dawi as a whole are against it, but we do know that Gods in a pantheon don't always see eye to eye on such issues. There's been support for dwarf necromancy multiple times in Warhammer's various editions, ranging from Total Warhammer's Ancestor Spirits and the 1st Edition RPG straight up having dwarf necromancers, so it's fully possible that some of the Ancestor Gods secretly approve of such things. They could avoid telling anyone by keeping it a "valuable Clan secret" within the priesthoods.

Who knows, maybe when Mathilde starts practicing while wearing the belt, she'll feel Valaya standing by her side going "You go girl, go ahead and shatter that deathly system holding common dwarves in the soft ground!".

True, statistically speaking that voice is more likely to belong to Nagash wearing a truly impressive wig, but strictly speaking we can't say it won't happen.
 
So far, the primary reason to recommend the Grey college to Eike isn't "it's good for her" it's, "Apprentice! Apprentice! Apprentice!" and "The Vow of Poverty isn't much of an impediment".

The Vow of Poverty isn't an insurmountable burden, but why should we saddle here with any burden she doesn't need? Anyone who says it isn't a burden at all should re-read all the time we spent figuring out how to deal with it. The labor exists and is completely unnecessary.

The Grey College won't irreparably harm her career, but it won't help it either.

If we care about her, we should send her to a college that will help her, not just one that won't harm her very much. One where she can use all the nifty powers she learns in any way she wants, rather than only when she's sure it won't get her in trouble...or where she thinks she won't get caught. Remember how the concern with the dampers is her giving in to temptation? Why put her in a situation where she would have to resist doing what she wants and is best for her out of fear of being sanctioned?

Which college helps her, puts the fewest limits on her or enables her to do whatever she wants with her life the most effectively?
 
I'd like to think the guaranteed apprenticeship with a master who already cares for her, and has the power and influence to make sure she gets the pest possible start to her journeying, is good for Eike.
Also all the cool magic stuff.
 
Klaus said:
So far, the primary reason to recommend the Grey college to Eike isn't "it's good for her" it's, "Apprentice! Apprentice! Apprentice!" and "The Vow of Poverty isn't much of an impediment".
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OK, I'll be honest here, this is starting to feel disingenuous. How are the multiple posts about the advantages of the Grey College for Eike, for the EIC and for the Empire less 'the primary reason' than the posts that are just uncomplicated attempts to get an apprentice? Like where did you get your survey data on the motivations of people? Because I have to say I do not agree with your conclusion.

Here are in no particular order some of the reasons why the Grey Order is best:
  1. It will guarantee her the education from a Lord Magister, that is both better and in its own way safer because our philosophy of magic
  2. It will be better for her to be in the Grey Order rather than have a Grey Wizard standing with a sword over her head like the sword of Damocles. Non-specific dread and threats are replaced by a understandable institutional culture and a community of like-minded people
  3. In allowing Eike to be the apprentice of 'that dwarf wizard' it starts her off with a very solid reputation with the Karaz Ankor. Dwarfs take apprenticeship very seriously. This is not just good for her as the owner of the EIC but also as a wizard. No matter what stones and insults are hurled at her in the Empire (and every single wizard has to deal with that) she will know that she has sanctuary and allies to count on
  4. It gives us a chance to consolidate a majority of the EIC stocks into the hand of a Grey Wizard ensuring that its first purpose is not the blind acquisition of profit
  5. It gives us an apprentice with an interesting background and not just makes us shop for them. She is even a nice foil to earely game Mathilde, a Stirlander and young but also one with all these opportunities Mathy never had
 
consequences said:
Welp, I'm convinced.

[Y] Resurrect Alkharad, refound the college of necromancy with Eike as its first enrollee.
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I mean, Mathilde's probably a better a better teacher of necromancy than Alkharad is, so let's just cut out the middle link and teach the kid ourselves.

Actually, let me check...
Articles of magic said:
7. No Magister may ever study the Forbidden Lores of the Daemonic Powers, nor the unholy ways of Necromancy, nor any other sorcery or witchcraft that utilises the wicked powers of Dark Magic. Any Magister found disregarding this Article is guilty of an Abominable Act and is both Heretic and Traitor and will be put to sword and fire immediately.
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Yes, it only says that you're not allowed to study the Forbidden Lores and that no magister is allowed to learn them, so going by the text of the rules Magister Mathilde teaching the Apprentice Eike how to use Necromancy should be a-okay!
 
Klaus said:
So far, the primary reason to recommend the Grey college to Eike isn't "it's good for her" it's, "Apprentice! Apprentice! Apprentice!" and "The Vow of Poverty isn't much of an impediment".

The Vow of Poverty isn't an insurmountable burden, but why should we saddle here with any burden she doesn't need? Anyone who says it isn't a burden at all should re-read all the time we spent figuring out how to deal with it. The labor exists and is completely unnecessary.

The Grey College won't irreparably harm her career, but it won't help it either.

If we care about her, we should send her to a college that will help her, not just one that won't harm her very much. One where she can use all the nifty powers she learns in any way she wants, rather than only when she's sure it won't get her in trouble...or where she thinks she won't get caught. Remember how the concern with the dampers is her giving in to temptation? Why put her in a situation where she would have to resist doing what she wants and is best for her out of fear of being sanctioned?

Which college helps her, puts the fewest limits on her or enables her to do whatever she wants with her life the most effectively?
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At no other college but Grey can Mathilde ensure that Eike will have the personal attention and support of a Lady Magister with incredible connections and a vested interest in allowing her to to not only be the best wizard she can be, but also the best partner.

Even if we didn't take her on as an apprentice (though why wouldn't we?), Mathilde has sufficient power within the college to ensure she's very well taken care of.
 
Also arguments about Eike using her powers any way she wants fall rather flat when the only proscribed way to use powers in the Grey Order people have managed to come up with was 'In service of naked greed'. Like if someone shows me a limitation Eike would be subject to that is actually relevant to leading a happy, healthy life I will be happy to consider it.
 
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Omegahugger said:
Yes, it only says that you're not allowed to study the Forbidden Lores and that no magister is allowed to learn them, so going by the text of the rules Magister Mathilde teaching the Apprentice Eike how to use Necromancy should be a-okay!
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See, that doesn't sound right but I don't know enough about Necromancy to dispute that. :V
Xepheria said:
Even if we didn't take her on as an apprentice (though why wouldn't we?)
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I mean, there's a good argument that the Bursar would be able to give Eike the help with Stewardship that Matty might not be as good at. I'd still prefer Us since Eike already knows us and I think the diplomatic benefits would be a great help, but Wilhelmine has a lot of positives and i'd like to at least take some advice from her.
 
Omegahugger said:
Actually, do we know for sure that Valaya is against Necromancy? I mean, yes, we know that Gazul and the Dawi as a whole are against it, but we do know that Gods in a pantheon don't always see eye to eye on such issues. There's been support for dwarf necromancy multiple times in Warhammer's various editions, ranging from Total Warhammer's Ancestor Spirits and the 1st Edition RPG straight up having dwarf necromancers, so it's fully possible that some of the Ancestor Gods secretly approve of such things. They could avoid telling anyone by keeping it a "valuable Clan secret" within the priesthoods.

Who knows, maybe when Mathilde starts practicing while wearing the belt, she'll feel Valaya standing by her side going "You go girl, go ahead and shatter that deathly system holding common dwarves in the soft ground!".

True, statistically speaking that voice is more likely to belong to Nagash wearing a truly impressive wig, but strictly speaking we can't say it won't happen.
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I mean, as a counter-argument, Boney has explicitly stated that weaponization of Ancestor Spirits is only a TW thing, and he uses Dwarf Necromancers as his go-to example for 1st edition stuff that has long since become non-canon.
 
DragonParadox said:
Also arguments about Eike using her powers any way she wants fall rather flat when the only proscribed way to use powers in the Grey Order people have managed to come up with was 'In service of naked greed'. Like if someone shows me a limitation Eike would be subject to that is actually relevant to leading a happy, healthy life I will be happy to consider it.
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With the rules of the Grey Order as written, Apprentices, Journeywomen and Magister can be given assignments by their superiors. Including undercover assignments they won't like.

Though with Mathilde being Eike's master it won't be a practical problem. It is more one for applicants to the Grey College in general. Who don't have the eye of a LM.
 
Klaus said:
The Vow of Poverty isn't an insurmountable burden, but why should we saddle here with any burden she doesn't need?
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Because we consider the Vow of Poverty's requirement to not be nakedly greedy a good thing, and have already tried to make it part of the EIC's culture.

If I had the choice between "Happy greedy Eike who's using the EIC to profit from dealing economic harm to the Empire" and "Unhappy prosocial Eike who's using the EIC to benefit the Empire in accordance with her vow of poverty" I'd pick the latter every time.

Having the EIC's future leadership be discouraged from displaying naked greed is a plus, not a minus.
 
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LightLan said:
With the rules of the Grey Order as written, Apprentices, Journeywomen and Magister can be given assignments by their superiors. Including undercover assignments they won't like.

Though with Mathilde being Eike's master it won't be a practical problem. It is more one for applicants to the Grey College in general. Who don't have the eye of a LM.
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Sure, but we are a Lady Magister so she won't be getting that. It would also be a bad idea for the Order as a whole to risk someone with leverage on the EIC for an undercover mission that someone else could have done.
 
Mopman43 said:
I mean, as a counter-argument, Boney has explicitly stated that weaponization of Ancestor Spirits is only a TW thing, and he uses Dwarf Necromancers as his go-to example for 1st edition stuff that has long since become non-canon.
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Which is why we can't explicitely confirm that X part of the Dawi kingdoms approve of dead people walking around like they're alive, it still doesn't prove that Valaya would actually be against Necromancy.

She's technically a dead person too, you know. A lot of those would like to return to the world of the living. I could add her to our list of people we need to revive if given the chance. Probably a fair bit more difficult than ressurecting Abel, but it could be doable with sufficient time, effort and Dhar.
 
DragonParadox said:
Sure, but we are a Lady Magister so she won't be getting that. It would also be a bad idea for the Order as a whole to risk someone with leverage on the EIC for an undercover mission that someone else could have done.
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Or, to be even more on the nose about it: We can provide her protection against getting dangerous, or particularly interfering assignments if she is at the grey college, but nowhere else.

But let's get even deeper: Past the "learning not to kill yourself with magic" stage, where would she be as our apprentice? Right, she'd be with us, all the time. While we're making diplomatic overtures, and working with, important people and craftsmen and logicians and wizards from the empire over and beyond.

Being our apprentice isn't just safer, it means her time training to be a wizard will also double as time building connections with potential trading partners. Much ado has been said about the value of deepening international ties and cooperation via the waystone network, and here we have a chance to put Eike and the EIC at the ground floor of it. The value of that cannot be understated.
 
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Omegahugger said:
She's technically a dead person too, you know.
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I know we're not using End Times stuff, but since there's nothing else stating as to what happened to Valaya, here it is.

She's not dead. She's sleeping, gathering energy to power something called the Gate of Valaya, which would apparently be the key for the dwarfs to finally live in a paradise or something.
 
Sir_Travelsalot said:
I know we're not using End Times stuff, but since there's nothing else stating as to what happened to Valaya, here it is.

She's not dead. She's sleeping, gathering energy to power something called the Gate of Valaya, which would apparently be the key for the dwarfs to finally live in a paradise or something.
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What is death but a very long nap that you need someone to give you a good shake to wake up from?
 
The real vote is, what is Eike's motivation?

[ ] Avarice: To be a Grey Wizard is not a well-paid position, but even greater opportunity can be found with the excellent training and highly exploitable magics such an individual has access to.

[ ] Vainglory: The role of a wizard apprentice is prestigious, certainly, but hardly glorious - unless you go above and beyond the call of duty, and sometimes above and beyond what was asked of you, and sometimes even above and beyond sanity and rationality. Thankfully you'll have a questionable excellent role-model.

[ ] Nepotism: You have a large family, many of whom are eager for prestigious and well-paying job- Wait. No you don't. Your Grandmother is the effective head of the EIC, one of the most influential trade companies in the Empire, and your Master is the Dämmerlichtreiter. You're family friends with the Empress for Shallya's sake! Scrap this one.

[ ] Inspiration: To you, this apprenticeship is merely a stepping stone towards a pet project that consumes you. Probably unlimited cosmic power. But is it legal unlimited cosmic power?

[ ] Zealotry: The Empire is a land of many faiths - the Sigmarites and the Ulricans primarily, but countless others as well. You, of course, know that only one of them is true, and will work to eliminate all false faiths. Except maybe the Ranaldians, your Master and Shallya say they're cool.

[ ] Sleeper Agent: Perhaps you did not quite attain the position; perhaps it was thrust unto you by another vampiric sleeper agent, and perhaps those that did the thrusting have attached several strings to the position.

[ ] Corruption: Loyalty to the darker powers has great costs, but greater rewards. Or was it the other way around? Choice of Chaos (except Nurgle he sucks) or Vampire Counts (your Master is great); the downsides to such domineering overseers are as obvious as they are numerous. Unless you choose Vampire Counts. Your Master is a softy.
 
FallenPears said:
[ ] Zealotry: The Empire is a land of many faiths - the Sigmarites and the Ulricans primarily, but countless others as well. You, of course, know that only one of them is true, and will work to eliminate all false faiths. Except maybe the Ranaldians, your Master and Shallya say they're cool.
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I like the unspoken implication here that Morrites are also bad.

I happen to agree entirely! Morr is the absolute worst God that I can't directly blame for Abel's death, his decree that Shallya should only heal one person at a time "lest no one dies" is absolute bonkers, and it should be the sworn duty of any self-respecting Imperial to dig up any of the poor souls trapped in his garden and help them stand on their own two feet again!
 
DragonParadox said:
OK, I'll be honest here, this is starting to feel disingenuous. How are the multiple posts about the advantages of the Grey College for Eike, for the EIC and for the Empire less 'the primary reason' than the posts that are just uncomplicated attempts to get an apprentice? Like where did you get your survey data on the motivations of people? Because I have to say I do not agree with your conclusion.

Here are in no particular order some of the reasons why the Grey Order is best:
  1. It will guarantee her the education from a Lord Magister, that is both better and in its own way safer because our philosophy of magic
  2. It will be better for her to be in the Grey Order rather than have a Grey Wizard standing with a sword over her head like the sword of Damocles. Non-specific dread and threats are replaced by a understandable institutional culture and a community of like-minded people
  3. In allowing Eike to be the apprentice of 'that dwarf wizard' it starts her off with a very solid reputation with the Karaz Ankor. Dwarfs take apprenticeship very seriously. This is not just good for her as the owner of the EIC but also as a wizard. No matter what stones and insults are hurled at her in the Empire (and every single wizard has to deal with that) she will know that she has sanctuary and allies to count on
  4. It gives us a chance to consolidate a majority of the EIC stocks into the hand of a Grey Wizard ensuring that its first purpose is not the blind acquisition of profit
  5. It gives us an apprentice with an interesting background and not just makes us shop for them. She is even a nice foil to earely game Mathilde, a Stirlander and young but also one with all these opportunities Mathy never had
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Yes. And in fact having all of this listed out in one place has convinced me to keep my vote for Grey College but rescind my vote for letting her decide. Sorry Eike, but democracy says you must have no choice :p
 
Omegahugger said:
I mean, Mathilde's probably a better a better teacher of necromancy than Alkharad is, so let's just cut out the middle link and teach the kid ourselves.
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We're going to need a deputy to handle the admin, and while as a vampire he isn't going to be as concerned about a long break in employment on his resume, a prompt rehiring in the educational field can only help him get his feet back under him. And hey, the world has changed as he predicted since he started his nap, so he has a brave new alien landscape to explore in between managing our paperwork.
 
consequences said:
We're going to need a deputy to handle the admin, and while as a vampire he isn't going to be as concerned about a long break in employment on his resume, a prompt rehiring in the educational field can only help him get his feet back under him. And hey, the world has changed as he predicted since he started his nap, so he has a brave new alien landscape to explore in between managing our paperwork.
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Come to think of it, we do need to gather as many varied viewpoints and experiences as possible on the Waystones project...

Do you think we could headhunt Alkharad from our shelf? I think he'd find it to be an interesting project to work on, tickle his intellectual brain a little. Maybe if we supply him with some puzzles and a few expendable things to entertain himself with when off the job?
 
As far as ensuring Eike gets Lord Magister tuition, it is possible to ensure that she gets it even if she goes outside of the grey. It's 10CF a turn, though. Or, I guess, Mathilde could cash in her Great Deed to get the best possible tutor for her through her entire time at the College of her choice. That's actually something I could see winning a vote.
 
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