Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Voting is open
Problems there is that Mindhole is at short range and a way to store a spell to execute at a later point wasn't invented until Mathildes Matrix, and if it were something like that were applied to her anyway then windsight would have seen it.
Anyway, I don't know this is too relevant to the original point, I misunderstood mindhole, doesn't really matter if its done with a different spell, and we kinda know that spells exist that aren't on the list because of Algard rearranging the sky and his pocket dimensions and stuff.

I think it's important to keep in mind the distinction that the Matrix allows any spell of its wind to be trigger packet implanted, where as what ever was done to Mathilde was probably a spell entirely of its own that worked in a similar fashion but the packet was its self part of the original spell rather than a modular addition. I don't think Windsight works well when directed inwards although tbh I'm not sure on that one but the way windsight has been described for Mathilde I'm not sure if she can gaze upon her own soul or look inwards so she might never have noticed it because of that. There's also the difficulty in noticing Ulgu when its in your brain and wreathed in Ulgu any way.

But yea, it's probably a custom spell of some sort, might be built off a mindhole mastery and recodified though.
 
Given that we only ever hear of the memory spell being used on apprentices, presumably in the College itself, I suspect it is not a spell at all but a ritual, something you cannot use in the field without great danger.
 
Or perhaps something woven in to (or even made possible by?) a section of the Grey College itself, like the warding around her Lady Magisterial Lockbox.
 
Regarding Jade (and possibly other collages) Secrets: Instead of trying to find a way to get a Jade to break their vows, we need to find a way to be read in on them and take those same vows.

If we can get the Jades to trust us and induct us into their mysteries, that solves a lot of problems—we have access to the knowledge we need, they don't break their vows, and the ties between our collages are strengthened.

Mystic and Collegiate would be good traits to have towards that end, and I'm not sure what the requirements would be for the head druids to accept us—marry Pan, worship Rhya, kill a lot of beastmen, hand over the Lustria notebooks, the magic seed, all of the above? But if we can become a Grey Druid—like how we're a dwarf, and a knight—then all the doors would be open to us.

I'm not saying this will be easy—there's probably never been a non-jade druid in the history of the collages, and I wouldn't expect the precursors were anymore welcoming—but I feel it's the best possible route that won't bite us in the backside down the line.

Now this is hampered by the fact that the only thing we know about the druids is that they are one of the oldest magic using organisations in the empire (if not the old world) and that they are currently divided into sects along religious lines about the nature of their goddess, and that this divide is so severe that Pan ran away from home and joined a dwarf expedition just so she wouldn't have to deal with it.

I don't know if we can use that—especially now that we have been informed (by a dragon, mind you) that Rhya and Isha are separate beings, not to mention Joergs metaphor about rivers and the sea—but it's a sign we need more information about the situation.
 
Regarding Jade (and possibly other collages) Secrets: Instead of trying to find a way to get a Jade to break their vows, we need to find a way to be read in on them and take those same vows.

If we can get the Jades to trust us and induct us into their mysteries, that solves a lot of problems—we have access to the knowledge we need, they don't break their vows, and the ties between our collages are strengthened.

That's not helpful. The secrets involved need be released or they can't be made use of. If we had to take a dwarven oath of secrecy to learn the Runesmithing knowledge about the waystones (Not how to make the runes) then it helps no one because the waystone project will involve wide spread dissemination of how to make use of and hopefully repair/make new ones. Every oath of secrecy taken regarding that is another wound to the project ever being ultimately successful.
 
I think it's important to keep in mind the distinction that the Matrix allows any spell of its wind to be trigger packet implanted, where as what ever was done to Mathilde was probably a spell entirely of its own that worked in a similar fashion but the packet was its self part of the original spell rather than a modular addition. I don't think Windsight works well when directed inwards although tbh I'm not sure on that one but the way windsight has been described for Mathilde I'm not sure if she can gaze upon her own soul or look inwards so she might never have noticed it because of that. There's also the difficulty in noticing Ulgu when its in your brain and wreathed in Ulgu any way.

But yea, it's probably a custom spell of some sort, might be built off a mindhole mastery and recodified though.
It doesn't have to be directed inwards, Mathilde was unaware and its implied that there are others that haven't been triggered yet, she should have seen them in others wizards.
 
Regarding Jade (and possibly other collages) Secrets: Instead of trying to find a way to get a Jade to break their vows, we need to find a way to be read in on them and take those same vows.

If we can get the Jades to trust us and induct us into their mysteries, that solves a lot of problems—we have access to the knowledge we need, they don't break their vows, and the ties between our collages are strengthened.

Mystic and Collegiate would be good traits to have towards that end, and I'm not sure what the requirements would be for the head druids to accept us—marry Pan, worship Rhya, kill a lot of beastmen, hand over the Lustria notebooks, the magic seed, all of the above? But if we can become a Grey Druid—like how we're a dwarf, and a knight—then all the doors would be open to us.

I'm not saying this will be easy—there's probably never been a non-jade druid in the history of the collages, and I wouldn't expect the precursors were anymore welcoming—but I feel it's the best possible route that won't bite us in the backside down the line.

Now this is hampered by the fact that the only thing we know about the druids is that they are one of the oldest magic using organisations in the empire (if not the old world) and that they are currently divided into sects along religious lines about the nature of their goddess, and that this divide is so severe that Pan ran away from home and joined a dwarf expedition just so she wouldn't have to deal with it.

I don't know if we can use that—especially now that we have been informed (by a dragon, mind you) that Rhya and Isha are separate beings, not to mention Joergs metaphor about rivers and the sea—but it's a sign we need more information about the situation.
Thankfully there is a very easy way for Mathilde to enter the circle of people who are candidates of being allowed to know Jade secrets.
She is Doing Druid Things. If Mathilde knew more than that, Panoramia would have to either kill or marry her.
Of course just because we got our foot in the door doesn't mean they'll give up their secrets easily, we would have to prove ourselves worthy and Collegiate would help with that.
 
On the Dhar thing, yea stay away from it. I gave the MC in my quest two mutations in turn 3 because they were messing about with Dhar when Morrslieb was shining and some people were surprised, though others expected it.
 
That's not helpful. The secrets involved need be released or they can't be made use of. If we had to take a dwarven oath of secrecy to learn the Runesmithing knowledge about the waystones (Not how to make the runes) then it helps no one because the waystone project will involve wide spread dissemination of how to make use of and hopefully repair/make new ones. Every oath of secrecy taken regarding that is another wound to the project ever being ultimately successful.

Okay, so how do we get these sacred secrets, distribute them widely (to only the correct hands of course) and do so without pissing off the oldest magical tradition in the Empire?

My idea is focused on keeping the Jades on our good side, as active and involved partners, because every other solution I've seen is either "hope they see sense and spill for the good of all" or "manipulate and/or steal the secrets from them".
 
[ ] DIPLO: Trucemaker
Sometimes the best battle is one you never fight. Every life not spent fighting lesser evils can be turned against the greater ones.
This looks amazing to me for getting Elves and Dwarves to get along better during the work program.
If there was a hammer that was extremely better at bashing in heads than anything else, and had a tendency to bash in heads of its own accord, and made people holding it want to bash in more and more heads, and created a lasting aura of bashed-in heads everywhere it was used, I don't think it would be unreasonable to characterize that hammer as 'evil'.
Pretty much. Necromancy is evil. Now, there may be circumstances where it is less evil than the alternative, such as the end of the world. But it is evil magic, and the world would be a much better place if Nagash had been murdered by ninjas when he was young.
 
Last edited:
It doesn't have to be directed inwards, Mathilde was unaware and its implied that there are others that haven't been triggered yet, she should have seen them in others wizards.
Not necessarily. Even apart from the fact it's a Grey Wizard only thing, it's entirely possible Mathilde has seen it, and then dismissed it as being natural to the wind, or has been led to believe it's something else or that whatever it is makes sure she can't perceive the structure as unusual. Or perhaps it's very very subtle, or is hidden somehow.

Not to mention, it might not be entirely magical. Hypnosis is thing IRL, and I could see it being that with some very small spells to trigger when to undo it.
 
[X] DIPLO: Collegiate
How independent the Colleges are from each other depends a great deal on your perspective. There can be a lot of value in bridging those gaps.
[X] DIPLO: Mentor
Though you've never taken an Apprentice of your own, you have spent quite a bit of time taking less-experienced Wizards under your wing.
[X] DIPLO: Polyglot
If you had been unable to use Khazalid as a bridging language, there were many encounters that could have gone quite badly. There's a great deal of potential benefits to further expanding your linguistic lexicon.
[X] LESSON: Cartographer
Being able to explore, record, and subsequently navigate unfriendly territory is an incredibly useful and often underrated skill.
[X] LESSON: Leader
Despite not seeking it, once more you found yourself in military command. Perhaps this tendency is something to be embraced.
[X] LESSON: Theologian
You have a breadth of experience with the Divine that would put many Priests to shame, and are starting to build tentative overarching theories of the Divine that many might consider heretical.
 
It doesn't have to be directed inwards, Mathilde was unaware and its implied that there are others that haven't been triggered yet, she should have seen them in others wizards.
I think it's only limited to the Grey Order. Hubert, the unfortunate Celestial, didn't know about skaven at all during the ducklings' first field trip. Adela and Greta seemed to react in a more standard way--a very conspicuous silence as opposed to, say, being clubbed by a returning memory.
 
Last edited:
I spent like half an hour catching up on the thread. Sitting here wondering why the hell the thread's suddenly talking about visiting Algard and discussing the finer merits of studying AV. It's a little late so it took me far too long to realize what was up and that I was like 4000 pages in the past. :oops:
To be fair, discussing the finer merits of studying AV could be at any point, and they also seem to arise spontaneously. Sometimes it feels the thread is 50% AV discussion by volume.
 
waystone project will involve wide spread dissemination of how to make use of and hopefully repair/make new ones
1) Noone but thread and Mathilde has expressed this opinion. Eonir want their stones online and Belegar wants to know what the fuck is up. Any advances beyond that, in repairing, maintaining or even making new stones are not only very high bar to shoot for, but also one that all participants will have to hash out how to spread. There is every possibility Eonir might not want that either.

2) That downer point down, the runesmiths have cooperated with Elves before, and i am reasonably sure they can do it again. The rules Cult of Thungni is beholden to have not changed since the original waystone manufacture. While one might be concerned there will be issues due to the souring brought on by War of Vengeance, i remain hopeful.

I do agree, however, that we need to actually bring the Jades in on this as institution.


As I said above, does not matter if they never get the spell off because it was countered.
If you manage to actually make the Supreme Patriarch miscast (which like, okay you are Lord Magister too, so its possible, but hoo boy), you are still set dealing with a man who wandered into Cathay as a journeyman and survived long enough to learn how to be a dragon.

EDIT: Lol sorry DP. Brought to you, by no scroll gang.
 
Last edited:
You know, this talk on Dhar has me thinking of Mathilde writing a treatise on it.

Not even necessarily about the mechanics of Dhar, just a deep dive on why it's so corruptive and important to be isolated from it, and how it affects the minds of those who are touched by it. Something like...


Dhar and Folly

We who call ourselves wizards know that the magic winds we wield, and even to some extent come to embody, each bears their own themes. Mysterious fog, inevitable death, passionate flame, untamed wilderness, certain light, rigorous gold, bountiful nature, ominous sky.

More than that, to wield these magics we must each take up the mindset of our winds and their themes and have our minds and souls altered to become more akin to our chosen wind.

With this in mind, I will submit this simple thesis: Dhar is the magic of unity through coercion --- of petty tyranny, grudging support, and bonds forged without trust --- and to wield it is to become practiced in the skills and mindset of coercive force and to be touched by it is to have one's nature warped to become akin to a being of coercive force.

Of course those who would wield it are called to scheming, violence, and excess because these are precisely what is needed for one to lead through coercion alone. Of course even the very best of people would in time become consumed with self obsession, for they cannot trust any other. Of course it's mere presence would inevitably lead to Ruin. Even absent the warping to their souls, those who wield Dhar had practiced a skill for months, years, or even decades that fundamentally asked them to think in terms of force and control that not only can, but must be attained against the say of the power itself.

In this treatise, I will explore the evidence for this thesis and it's ramifications in depth.

-------

And a potential tidbit from the version where Mathilde is crazy enough to incorporate the Liber Mortis into the bibliography.

"Given that this scholar later became known as the Vampire Vlad von Carstien and waged a war to conquer the Empire under the belief that he alone was capable of ruling it, we might presume he was not as protected by his nature as he thought."

Because I like the idea of Mathilde writing a paper that's basically just a giant middle finger raised to every Dhar user ever. In long and dry witted detail.

And also because I like the idea that if Dhar is unity-through-coercion then the question of High Magic, as its opposite, naturally becomes one of "Okay, then what does it mean to have unity without coercion, and how might we, as wielders of magic, attain it?"
 
"Would you like to see a wood elf forest without anyone trying to kill you?"
If you think that none of the Jade and Amber LMs have ever managed to see Laurelorn from the inside then you are suffering from serious protagonist goggles.
That your definition covers five different possible avenues and points to four existing models as possible frameworks highlights my exact point about 'theurgy' meaning many different things to many different people.
That's by design. All of those things are "Theurgy". If one of those things are possible for Mathilde without her stopping to be a Grey Wizard then "Theurgy" is a viable idea. If studying the Nehekharan method in order to combine her current magic with any form of Divine magic from any non-Chaos deity is viable then that covers the research direction that has been most often proposed. Another option would be applying the fabled Ulgu Thongs to some deity's Divine magic, though the question of how to source said magic would have to be solved as well. That would most probably lead to very different results, but it still falls under the "Theurgy" umbrella. "Theurgy" really is just the idea of having one caster combining Divine and Arcane magic into one casting technique.
Do not trust in meta shenanigans to protect Mathilde from the extremely real consequences of using an extremely toxic substances, especially when I have explicitly cautioned the thread about those consequences on multiple occasions.
That's not what I was trying to say. It's just that even if you roll to see if Mathilde does fucked up shit over the course of the turn as she pursues her goals, I still think that you would let us vote for her actual goals and courses of action. Otherwise it would mean that any serious amount of Dhar contamination would automatically lead to a bad end in which this stops being a Quest and starts being a prose epilogue of varying length.
I might need to invent a new level of extreme classification for that sort of publication.
Personal letter to the Grey Patriarch, to be given to the next Grey Patriarch?

Speaking of classified material, how does it work when Mathilde discovers some sort of magical knowledge that the Grey College would really like to keep as a Guild secret, not because it is too teach widely, but because they'd too like to have stuff like what every other College has. When would Mathilde be asked to make her paper a classified one and who would have the final say in the matter?
I suspect that learning the Lore Nagash invented may require adopting large parts of his mindset, as it's intimately bound up in the spells.
Supposedly Mathilde can already cast Necromancy and, whatever the mindset needed, it hasn't been mentioned to be very hard to reach for her or require a permanent paradigm shift. To me that says that someone who specializes in some form of Chaos Sorcery should also be able to pick up Necromancy, at least in a limited fashion.
Problems there is that Mindhole is at short range and a way to store a spell to execute at a later point wasn't invented until Mathildes Matrix, and if it were something like that were applied to her anyway then windsight would have seen it.
Anyway, I don't know this is too relevant to the original point, I misunderstood mindhole, doesn't really matter if its done with a different spell, and we kinda know that spells exist that aren't on the list because of Algard rearranging the sky and his pocket dimensions and stuff.
The relevance to your original point is that the Grey College most likely has some kind of access to a spell that manipulates general memories of learnable knowledge in some fashion, even if said spell happens to not be called Mindhole as you thought it was. So, barring that specific spell name, your original argument still stands. And just because the spell is need to know doesn't mean that someone with access to it isn't abusing it anyway.
I think it's important to keep in mind the distinction that the Matrix allows any spell of its wind to be trigger packet implanted, where as what ever was done to Mathilde was probably a spell entirely of its own that worked in a similar fashion but the packet was its self part of the original spell rather than a modular addition. I don't think Windsight works well when directed inwards although tbh I'm not sure on that one but the way windsight has been described for Mathilde I'm not sure if she can gaze upon her own soul or look inwards so she might never have noticed it because of that. There's also the difficulty in noticing Ulgu when its in your brain and wreathed in Ulgu any way.

But yea, it's probably a custom spell of some sort, might be built off a mindhole mastery and recodified though.
She could look at freshly minted Grey Journeymen with zero Arcane Marks.

1) Noone but thread and Mathilde has expressed this opinion. Eonir want their stones online and Belegar wants to know what the fuck is up. Any advances beyond that, in repairing, maintaining or even making new stones are not only very high bar to shoot for, but also one that all participants will have to hash out how to spread. There is every possibility Eonir might not want that either.
If for whatever crazy reason we end up with a Waystone Project that results in zero applicable knowledge for Humanity/The Empire then I am definitely voting to screw our oaths on our deathbed and writing a detailed paper on every single thing we learned, to be distributed to the Grey Patriarch, the Supreme Patriarch and maybe a couple of other Patriarchs/LMs upon our death.
 
Voting is open
Back
Top