To play devil's advocate here - we explicitly violated our collegiate oaths to do so.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Well I don't agree with attempting to launder the information in that way, I'd be fine with trying to do so with derivative information we can credibly claim to have gained via other methods that have become more obvious due to having this but otherwise no.
Agreed, there are some lines that aught not be crossed not as a matter of practicality but morality.
If it becomes relevant to the story I'll spend the many hours it would require to put together competing frameworks for understandings of the soul.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
There's previous WoB that they have to be sanctified by certain gods.
NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
If people want to go to Numas and swear the oaths of Gazul, doing the former before the latter would be important. IIRC part of the oath is to destroy undead, and that'd likely include the Nehekharans. Of course, given the oaths don't require suicide avoiding that clause in Numas would likely not be a problem, but best to stay on the safe side and avoid the conflict.
I mean, publishing is not the be all end all of things, and even then most of the stuff we publish has an extremely limited audience.
Imagine for example if we'd learned the soul lore and it allowed us to determine that Morghur had a dwarf's soul? Is it important that we could never spread how we arrived at that conclusion or does what we can do with it matter more?
I don't actually think the odds are particularly high it would've been relevant in that case but it gets the idea across. Mathilde is at this point an important person and what she personally is able to do and leverage has extremely wide ripple effects. Just because specific techniques or methods can't be widely spread doesn't mean she's not in a position to make the impact of those things widely felt.
Imagine for example if we'd learned the soul lore and it allowed us to determine that Morghur had a dwarf's soul? Is it important that we could never spread how we arrived at that conclusion or does what we can do with it matter more?
I don't actually think the odds are particularly high it would've been relevant in that case but it gets the idea across. Mathilde is at this point an important person and what she personally is able to do and leverage has extremely wide ripple effects. Just because specific techniques or methods can't be widely spread doesn't mean she's not in a position to make the impact of those things widely felt.
It's been brought up, Tomb Kings and their subjects do not count as undead we need to destroy, all of them are walking around willingly, not enthralled to a necromancer.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Beyond any other issues with the idea, the mostly likely route they'd take to the Darklands is Death Pass- through the territory patrolled by the Undumgi, past Und-uzgar held by the Undumgi, past the East Gate, under the guns of the Undumgi that are working towards making the entirety of Death Pass from the underway entrance to the western edge as safe a road as possible.
I don't think this would work out.
...was it? I haven't ever seen anything pointing to a Skaven presence in Drazh.
...looking at the map of the Under-Empire, assuming that's what your talking about, it lists a skaven lair in Drazh, but I think "major" and "linked by multiple routes" is off- it has exactly one route to a cross-roads, the major nexus in that area is the City of Pillars. If there's a Skaven presence there, I don't see any reason to assume that it's major by any means. And even then, it reads to me more like an outpost of the City of Pillars- given that K8P is now free of Skaven, I don't think it would be especially viable.
Yeah I'm thinkin' I need to buy you another coffee, you're too good for us. Seriously, the level of effort that appears to go into this quest is above and beyond anything anyone else is running; at least as far as I've seen.
So... touching the Mummy gold is fine? Or maybe, Nagash already ruined their sanctification?
Interesting thought, and I'll admit that it's probably not the sort of academic debate someone who's taking the oaths should be making but... technically a lot of Nehekharans aren't undead. They genuinely found a form of immortality that allowed them to persist far beyond human limits, but they still withered.
The skeleton legions on the other hand, and possibly the Tomb Kings themselves as opposed to the Mortuary Cult, almost certainly count as undead thanks to what Nagash did.
Ah well, I wear my allegiance on my sleeve and if it comes down to a choice, I think Nehekhara has a lot more to offer than the lore of Gazul. This is a civilization that built clockwork giants and scorpions before they figured out how to smelt iron, whilst also inventing a magical tradition in the most wind deprived environment on Malus, from first principles, without any outside assistance if I recall correctly; at least until Nagash enters the picture.
Ehhhhhhh. Arkhan the Black and other pro-Nagash groups employ the not-so-voluntary sort of necromancy.
True, but they are not so much Tomb Kings as they are excessively powerful heretics most of the others would much rather be rid of.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
Once the dead are up and about, that's where the sanctifying crew bows out and the undead-killing crew hops on.
This is certainly true, and one could use it to help construct a defence of the Tomb Kings, but I think it would definitely be an uphill theological battle. Step one would be finding out how many grudges they've accrued, first.
Interesting, and also amusing!
SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
Edit: Sorry wasn't fully paying attention in a work meeting multitasking.
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It's quite likely that many of them never accrued any grudges simply by virtue of the fact that they never met a dwarf in their life or undeath. Keep in mind the Tomb Kings are not actually a united polity, Setra's wishes aside.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
The most notable issue in canon is the War of the Hammer.
So, there's a Dwarf hammer (the Hammer of Algrim) with a Tomb King... coin? (the army book calls it a "disk of bronze") from Mahrak imbedded in it.
When Dwarfs have the hammer, the Tomb Kings want it back, when the Tomb Kings have it, the Dwarfs want it back.
It's stated to have changed hands over 3 dozen times.
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- Location
- Burgundian Netherlands
Now that the vote seems pretty conclusive and we're inching towards thread madness, a question that popped into my head the other day;
Do dwarfs gamble?
I remember haggling being considered a Forbidden Art, only practiced by merchant clans, so paying for something with an uncertain outcome seems un-dwarflike in this respect. On the other hand, dwarfs are no stranger to greed and frequently embark upon undertakings that are as much gambling as playing roulette or another game of chance is. I can also see them appreciating a clean wager, and they are no stranger to some chance-based silliness, like trying to hit Castle Drakenhof with Empire Greatcannon.
The only reference I could find is to this guy, but he's a crime lord so not necessarily representative for the dwarfs as a whole.
Anyone have any insights to share?
Do dwarfs gamble?
I remember haggling being considered a Forbidden Art, only practiced by merchant clans, so paying for something with an uncertain outcome seems un-dwarflike in this respect. On the other hand, dwarfs are no stranger to greed and frequently embark upon undertakings that are as much gambling as playing roulette or another game of chance is. I can also see them appreciating a clean wager, and they are no stranger to some chance-based silliness, like trying to hit Castle Drakenhof with Empire Greatcannon.
The only reference I could find is to this guy, but he's a crime lord so not necessarily representative for the dwarfs as a whole.
Anyone have any insights to share?
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13th Bee
Worker
- Location
- Tennessee, USA.
I'd prefer Mathilde not taking the Gazul oaths. For one, it feels dishonest because Mathilde isn't particularly devoted to the Dwarf Ancestor Gods. She's a Ranaldite to the point of having an actual two-way relationship with Ranald, and I rather like that aspect of her character. Most of the reasoning in the thread I've seen is about her doing it to get access to the cult secrets, which isn't really a motivation I approve of. Gods tend not to approve of that sort of thing.
I don't really see Mathilde even getting much out of the secrets either. Most of the benefits come from being an actual devoted member of the cult, I imagine. And using said secrets in her research is actually something I could see running afoul of the oaths. If nothing else, publishing any results based on them would violate any secrecy components.
I like Mathilde's fairly foreign perspective of the Dwarfs. Regardless of any declarations the Dwarfs make to the contrary, she's not a Dwarf. She doesn't think like a Dwarf. She doesn't act like a Dwarf. I don't want her to get too Dwarfy because I feel it would diminish the aspects I enjoy.
Mathilde sitting around doing research is also just not the part of the quest that I enjoy. I like her going out and doing things and meeting people and all I see coming from the oaths is a couple segments of her chatting with what's-his-name, a couple segments of her doing research, and then some combination of reputation gain that Mathilde already has more than she can use of and a perk with a very narrow benefit of minimal use to Mathilde if it has any actual benefit at all.
I don't really see Mathilde even getting much out of the secrets either. Most of the benefits come from being an actual devoted member of the cult, I imagine. And using said secrets in her research is actually something I could see running afoul of the oaths. If nothing else, publishing any results based on them would violate any secrecy components.
I like Mathilde's fairly foreign perspective of the Dwarfs. Regardless of any declarations the Dwarfs make to the contrary, she's not a Dwarf. She doesn't think like a Dwarf. She doesn't act like a Dwarf. I don't want her to get too Dwarfy because I feel it would diminish the aspects I enjoy.
Mathilde sitting around doing research is also just not the part of the quest that I enjoy. I like her going out and doing things and meeting people and all I see coming from the oaths is a couple segments of her chatting with what's-his-name, a couple segments of her doing research, and then some combination of reputation gain that Mathilde already has more than she can use of and a perk with a very narrow benefit of minimal use to Mathilde if it has any actual benefit at all.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
They have a word (dar) for a bet, wager, or challenge, so probably?
Oh, well that pleasantly simplifies matters! Now you'd only need to deal with the numerous grudges they've dug themselves into! Depending on the King anyway.
Yes, it's very much going to depend on the city-state and the lord in question. I think most any grudges that at one point had been leveled against Nehekharans are probably null and void given that they were humans. Those tend to soften with the generations, and also, y'know, everyone except certain members of the clergy and royalty all died horrifically. I think it's a safe bet that Setra might have a couple though.
This rings a bell. I'm sure we'll have some actions to investigate the history of these sorts of things if we're serious about spending AP in this direction. On the plus side, when it comes to Tomb Kings, it's somewhat viable to pick the single polity that's most compatible and just smash the like button. Getting along with Nehekhara as a whole is by no means required (or viable) in order to achieve some sort of positive outcome.
Geographically, the trouble is that the ruins of Strygos are in the way, and if you want to go around your choices are...
1) The western side of the World's Edge Mountains - which are full of Orks and Skaven.
2) The eastern side of the World's Edge Mountains - which are full of really nasty undead. Seriously, this place makes Sylvania look nice.
3) Sailing out from Barak Varr and making your way up river into the aptly named Swamp of Terror, which will then take you right between Khemri and the Black Pyramid of Nagash - which is definitely the wrong sort of neighborhood for small magical girls that still have flesh.
It's not impossible by any means, but I think the route would end up being circuitous, along the coast, and then back inland again.
Ranald might if we were explicitly stealing them!
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Haggling is almost the opposite of gambling. Gambling is a set price for an unknown reward, haggling is a changeable price for a known reward.
The standard idea behind dislike of haggling is that things have a correct value, and haggling means that you're not using that correct value. With gambling it's fine, you're using the correct value for the gamble.
Bookies with the everchanging odds on different bets might be seen as akin to merchants haggling with the uncertain prices, but a bet between two normal dwarves is fine.
- Location
- Oklahoma
Ultimately the crux of my disagreement with the idea of learning Gazul Lore is that I don't see why we would want to.
I think it's like tongs or theurgy, something that the thread came up with and had been assigning greater and greater capabilities to over time with no evidence that it'd even be useful for us.
Further, swearing ourselves into an order just cause we want their secrets feels really skeevy to me.
We already know a great deal about the soul. We know a great deal about the human god of death and His rites.
If there's something we find that Gazul Lore might actually be relevant to, we can just ask Gunnars to take a look at it.
I have very similar feelings about Arcane Khazalid.
Even if no oaths were involved, I'd still be against it.
I think it's like tongs or theurgy, something that the thread came up with and had been assigning greater and greater capabilities to over time with no evidence that it'd even be useful for us.
Further, swearing ourselves into an order just cause we want their secrets feels really skeevy to me.
We already know a great deal about the soul. We know a great deal about the human god of death and His rites.
If there's something we find that Gazul Lore might actually be relevant to, we can just ask Gunnars to take a look at it.
I have very similar feelings about Arcane Khazalid.
Even if no oaths were involved, I'd still be against it.
Quest
The Great One
- Location
- Everywhere
Since the topic is coming up, this should serve as a pretty good indicator of what to expect from Gazul Lore.
- Location
- Greece
Not explicitly, we actually did not if we abuse mental gymnastics enough, (which is a grey's favourite pastime) and that matters because there are spells that can target oath violations.