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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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[x] Attempt to infiltrate the Karak
[x] Spy on a Kul or Kvelige warband that's preparing to attack the Dum without making actual contact if possible.
[x] Spectate the Tribes "testing against the Dum". Watch for Cor-Dum abilities and its effects on chaos tribes.
[x] Ask for a volunteer to approach Morghur to see if he can be communicated with
[x] Approach the Kul camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
[x] Approach the Kvellige camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them
[x] Fortify here and see if anything interesting happens over the next day
[x] Attempt to approach Morghur to see if he can be communicated with
[x] Attempt to scout the forest at the base of the Karak
[x] Attempt to infiltrate the Karak with magic
[x] Attempt to infiltrate the Karak without magic
[x] Attempt to intercept a Kurgan war-party en route to attack the Karag and the Beastmen
 
BoneyM said:
'Kidnapping a holy man from an extremely numerous, powerful, and nearby polity on pretty much their home turf and subject them to torture and/or magical experimentation' is, uh, not those things.
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Hmm. I feel like I am missing some reason why this would be more risky or out of character than Mathilde's past infiltrations, thefts, kidnappings and assassinations.

Here are my assumptions:
  • Mathilde repeatedly infiltrated magically dangerous places like Temples of Gork, Clan Skyre science HQs and Black Colleges of Necromancy.
  • There she hit valuable targets like major magical rituals, vital and volatile science equipment and an ancient Vampire professor.
  • All of those were definitely dangerous. I'd say more so than a single Dolgan Shaman. Yet you never gave us special warnings emphasized how Mathilde wouldn't usually think of going through with it anyway. They just came up naturally in the Quest as votable options.
  • We were undisputably lucky, but it still is true that in all of those cases there were no surviving witnesses (that we know of) that could blame Mathilde for her actions and seek vengeance.
  • Kurgans are nomads scattered over huge regions and their Shamans don't all stick to a single camp per tribe.
  • The Yusak are weak enough to neither want to challenge nor join our expedition.
  • While underestimating priests in Warhammer is risky, a Mannslieb Shaman very probably has less raw magical power than probably any other of the fifteen and being greeted by one when lingering menacingly might be evidence of the lack of anyone "better".
  • When a Human disappears without a trace in or near the Chaos Wastes the reason could be literally anything, even if said Human was important and had magic powers.
picklepikkl said:
All-but-confirmed by the fact that the longbeard Belegar met had a number of Grombrindal-coincident traits, Mathilde had a vision of Grombrindal while firing the Eye of Gazul, and this exchange with BoneyM and other folks over the summer:
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I knew Grombrindal was at that battle, but I completely missed that he was the prospector dude that Belegar met out there at the river.
Alliterate said:
Dolgan Wind Shamans can also be described as a "Shaman of the Eight". That's all.
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Yes, but "Shaman" is not a Wind-specific term. Slaaksho appears to be Slaanesh-specific though. It's like being a Pyromancer of the Eight or a Berzerker of the Four.
 
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Woltaire said:
How many actions do we get to do?
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If you mean 'how many are taken from this vote', I'm pretty sure one.

If you mean total, not many, probably:

BoneyM said:
After running through all the safe experiments you could think of, you're much richer in questions but not exactly overburdened with answers. From here, the avenues for answers get significantly riskier, and often significantly more dubious. You also won't have long before the others begin to start pushing for the Expedition to leave, and not without reason - though nothing is currently attacking you, this is the Chaos Wastes, and enemies and corruption are never far away.
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The rest are going to be pushing to leave soon enough. I'd say we have a couple of days at most due to a combination of the food situation and the Chaos Wastes being a poor vacation spot.
 
Rafin said:
Hmm. I feel like I am missing some reason why this would be more risky or out of character than Mathilde's past infiltrations, thefts, kidnappings and assassinations.

Here are my assumptions:
  • Mathilde repeatedly infiltrated magically dangerous places like Temples of Gork, Clan Skyre science HQs and Black Colleges of Necromancy.
  • There she hit valuable targets like major magical rituals, vital and volatile science equipment and an ancient Vampire professor.
  • All of those were definitely dangerous. I'd say more so than a single Dolgan Shaman. Yet you never emphasized how Mathilde wouldn't usually think of going through with it anyway.
  • We were undisputably lucky, but it still is true that in all of those cases there were no surviving witnesses (that we know of) that could blame Mathilde for her actions and seek vengeance.
  • Kurgans are nomads scattered over huge regions and their Shamans don't all stick to a single camp per tribe.
  • The Yusak are weak enough to neither want to challenge nor join our expedition.
  • While underestimating priests in Warhammer is risky, a Mannslieb Shaman very probably has less raw magical power than probably any other of the fifteen and being greeted by one when lingering menacingly might be evidence of the lack of anyone "better".
  • When a Human disappears without a trace in or near the Chaos Wastes the reason could be literally anything, even if said Human was important and had magic powers.
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I'm really not interested in debating this.
 
Rafin said:
Yes, but "Shaman" is not a Wind-specific term. Slaaksho appears to be Slaanesh-specific though. It's like being a Pyromancer of the Eight or a Berzerker of the Four.
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And? Those seem perfectly valid titles. Not everything needs to poked and prodded. I think it's just shorthand for referencing that this is a Slaaneshi-something-tier, clarifying that they follow one of the Four chaos gods.
 
After some thought approaching the Kvellige camp probably isn't as dangerous as one would think on first thought. Admittedly we don't want to use magic in case there's an anti-magic field of some sort around but it's not like we have to just walk straight into their camp with nothing like a fool.

I'd expect we'll probably grab some demigryph knights as an escort (and a ride) and simply stand around nearby expressing a willingness for diplomacy and hope they send someone willing to talk. If they move to attack then we simply retreat.
 
Mopman43 said:
"Grizzled prospector longbeard you meet out in the wilds" is like, his thing.
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I must admit that I know nothing about Warhammer other than this Quest (and discussions), a couple other short-lived Quests, binges on the Wiki, the Lexicanum and 1d4chan, YouTube videos of tabletop battles, a few Total War related cinematics and fanlore videos, Warhammer Online playable class descriptions, and lots of 40k stuff.

For all I knew Grombrindal was a ghost/demigod entity that magically appeared during certain hopeless battles without speaking a word.
GrimTheMad said:
If you mean total, not many, probably
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Hey now! Maybe BoneyM let's us continue playing as a Chaos Spawn. :V

BoneyM said:
I'm really not interested in debating this.
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I feel like I must have used the wrong type of language and pulled the discussion into a direction I didn't intend to. I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to get you to change your behavior or admit to something or criticize you or anything like that.
All I wanted is to find out wether you actually think that Mathilde would find my write-in to be more risky than her past decisions, if yes learn what I am missing and if no have something to point to when people say that you said that my write-in is too risky.
 
Fortifying or talking to a nearby guys are basically the safest option there is..

[x] Approach the Kvellige camp peacefully and attempt to discuss the Karak with them

[x] Fortify here and see if anything interesting happens over the next day
 
I think if people are concerned about risk they really shouldn't be seeing sticking around here for an extra day as a compromise between leaving and doing anything else. The idea that we'll just be able to stay here and not rock the boat if we don't make any moves seems pretty optimistic.
 
hubris is a coward's word

[x] Attempt to infiltrate the Karak
[x] Attempt to approach Morghur to see if he can be communicated with
[x] Attempt to scout the forest at the base of the Karak
[x] Attempt to infiltrate the Karak with magic
[x] Attempt to infiltrate the Karak without magic
 
Okay, something about cutting off parts of a place and making it your own reminded me of this but quest canon:
BoneyM said:
"The same once applied to the souls of Dwarves who died. Gazul of the Flame is he who conquered the Underearth."

"Wait, so..." You stop, and frown. You'd taken Underearth as the Dwarven name for their afterlife and thought nothing more of it. But Dwarves are always literal. "It's not of the Aethyr, is it?"

"It was before Gazul of the Flame," he says with a smile. "A part close to our world, known as the 'Glittering Realm'. Thungni discovered it, and the secrets he found are held sacred by the Runelords. But Gazul of the Flame conquered it, and severed it from the rest of the Aethyr. The Aethyr is," he waves a hand skywards. "Out there, at least metaphorically. More literally, some sort of sideways in a dimension imperceivable to us, but not, perhaps, to you. But either way, entirely separate and outside of what we call reality. The Underearth is not, it has been made within and of this world."

"The vigil over the dead," you realize. "You're not just protecting the soul from predators. You're redirecting it."

"Its natural impulse is to go up and out, back to the realm that birthed it. If that occurs it is not a tragedy, as we believe that what makes us who we are makes our soul-stuff stubborn enough that it will return once more to the Karaz Ankor. But it is wasteful, and unfair to subject a soul more than once to this reality that rejects us."

"That's how the Eye works," you say slowly. "The Vigil cuts the soul free and nudges it downwards. The Eye burns it free and shoves it upwards."

"Just as Gazul of the Flame burned the Glittering Realm free of the Aethyr."
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It's kind of a stretch, but what if Karag Dum tried to make a Glittering Realm 2.0? Because they're cutoff from the Karaz Ankor --by way of Slaanesh blocking the flow at Vlag's point--, then their Runes of Valaya's protection might have been weakening. However instead of trying to futilely restore the connection, they might have thought making Servir exposure less of a problem by making Karag Dum more separated from the Chaos Wastes.

Cutting off their part of the Chaos wastes by transplanting 1.) A part of the Araby deserts and 2.) A part of the Forests of Laurelorn (?) not only means there's multiple layers of physical protection against chaos hordes, but also severely weakening daemons that tries to go through the no-man's land desert.

Cor-Dum and his horde might've just been caught accidentally in the transplanting of the forest.

Lastly, I wonder if Karag Dum was actually aware of what happened to Vlag, and got inspiration from there.
 
Rafin said:
I feel like I must have used the wrong type of language and pulled the discussion into a direction I didn't intend to. I'm sorry. I wasn't trying to get you to change your behavior or admit to something or criticize you or anything like that.
All I wanted is to find out wether you actually think that Mathilde would find my write-in to be more risky than her past decisions, if yes learn what I am missing and if no have something to point to when people say that you said that my write-in is too risky.
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Most of Mathilde's risk-taking has been when she has somewhere safe to fall back to. There's nothing like that here. The Expedition has a lot of firepower for its size, but its size is still very small and its speed is much slower than what steppe horsemen can achieve. That means the consequence for failure in a 'steal a shaman' caper isn't just an inglorious retreat, it's the very likely death of everyone on the Expedition.

Can Mathilde pull it off? Probably. But if she leaves anything at all that can lead back to the Expedition, or even if she leaves nothing and Tzeentch decides to respond to a prayer for answers, the consequence would be obliteration. Game over for Mathilde, for Snorri and Ruprecht and Joerg, for all the Wizards that she brought on this Expedition. That's something that I feel needs to be stated up front.
 
Alliterate said:
And? Those seem perfectly valid titles. Not everything needs to poked and prodded. I think it's just shorthand for referencing that this is a Slaaneshi-something-tier, clarifying that they follow one of the Four chaos gods.
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For me "Pyromancer of the Eight" would always make me think one of the following:
  • There are eight Pyromancers.
  • There are eight entities known collectively as The Eight and The Pyromancer is one of them.
  • This pyromancer, in his capacity as a pyromancer fully serves, represents or belongs to a group or entity called The Eight.
Maybe its a language/semantics thing.

Though in the particular case of Slaaksho it might actually be a Kurgan->Khazalid translation error, where the word Slaaksho already means something like "Ksho, of Slaa(nesh) of the Four" and sentence structure and grammar gets mixed between the two very different languages. Happens all the time in real life too.
BoneyM said:
Most of Mathilde's risk-taking has been when she has somewhere safe to fall back to. There's nothing like that here. The Expedition has a lot of firepower for its size, but its size is still very small and its speed is much slower than what steppe horsemen can achieve. That means the consequence for failure in a 'steal a shaman' caper isn't just an inglorious retreat, it's the very likely death of everyone on the Expedition.

Can Mathilde pull it off? Probably. But if she leaves anything at all that can lead back to the Expedition, or even if she leaves nothing and Tzeentch decides to respond to a prayer for answers, the consequence would be obliteration. Game over for Mathilde, for Snorri and Ruprecht and Joerg, for all the Wizards that she brought on this Expedition. That's something that I feel needs to be stated up front.
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That makes sense and I completely missed that aspect. Thanks for answering despite this line of questions having annoyed you.

Edit: I probably also am underestimating the Yusak. We never see more than a few of them on screen and the comments of the Dolgan (who still fear them enough to not just roll over them) have had more of an impact on my view of them than they should have.
 
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Prime 2.0 said:
Alright, that seals it.

Cor-Dum, or whatever it is, does not want us to approach. He might like us and think that us approaching would endanger ourselves due to some whackery down there. Or, he just be brushing us off as outsiders and would attack us himself. Maybe he's sapient, maybe he's following inflexible programming. Doesn't matter.

As-is, trying to openly approach Karag-Dum is the wrong move, and trying to sneak in is stupid risky. We need to change the situation first. More information might help with that, and things might change from their side without us doing anything (though with how Borek was resigned, I doubt it), but we will be going against the demi-god grizzly if we try before shifting the situation.
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That is a good point I did not think of, and can easily fit into my personal theory regarding what has become of Dum.
 
defenestrator said:
Okay, something about cutting off parts of a place and making it your own reminded me of this but quest canon:

It's kind of a stretch, but what if Karag Dum tried to make a Glittering Realm 2.0? Because they're cutoff from the Karaz Ankor --by way of Slaanesh blocking the flow at Vlag's point--, then their Runes of Valaya's protection might have been weakening. However instead of trying to futilely restore the connection, they might have thought making Servir exposure less of a problem by making Karag Dum more separated from the Chaos Wastes.

Cutting off their part of the Chaos wastes by transplanting 1.) A part of the Araby deserts and 2.) A part of the Forests of Laurelorn (?) not only means there's multiple layers of physical protection against chaos hordes, but also severely weakening daemons that tries to go through the no-man's land desert.

Cor-Dum and his horde might've just been caught accidentally in the transplanting of the forest.

Lastly, I wonder if Karag Dum was actually aware of what happened to Vlag, and got inspiration from there.
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@BoneyM

This is looking interesting, can we have Mathilda consider this?
 
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Another One Bites The Dust
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    • Sculpt0r said:
    Mathilde has the most luck. This is the third time that her superior has crapped out on a military operation and left her with all the risk and all the glory.
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    Let's go! (to Karag Dum)

    She rides warily through the Wastes
    With her brim pulled way down low
    Ain't no sound but the sound of her pace
    Branulhune's ready to go

    Are you ready, hey, are you ready for this?
    Are you reaching out to the end of your goal?
    Out from the warp the daemons fly
    To the lure of our souls yeah

    Another one bites the dust
    Another one bites the dust
    And another one gone, and another one gone
    Another one bites the dust
    Hey, I'll avenge you, too
    Another one bites the dust

    How do you think we're going to go on
    Without you when you're gone?
    You led us with everything you had,
    And left the Expedition all alone

    Are you happy, are you satisfied?
    How long can you deny your role?
    Out from the warp the daemons fly
    To the lure of our souls

    Another one bites the dust
    Another one bites the dust
    And another one gone, and another one gone
    Another one bites the dust
    Hey, I'll avenge you, too
    Another one bites the dust

    Hey
    Oh take it
    Bite the dust
    Bite the dust
    Hey
    Another one bites the dust
    Another one bites the dust oww
    Another one bites the dust hey hey
    Another one bites the dust eh eh

    Oh Borek
    There are plenty of ways that you can hurt a dwarf
    And take him from the ground
    You can beat him, you can cheat him
    You can treat him bad and grudge him when he's down

    But I'm ready, yes, I'm ready for this
    I've got this all under control
    Out from the warp the daemons fly
    Drawn in to the lure of our souls

    Another one bites the dust
    Another one bites the dust
    And another one gone, and another one gone
    Another one bites the dust
    Hey, I'll avenge you, too
    Another one bites the dust
     
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