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I think BoneyM was explicit earlier that it was being treated as a herdstone, but wasn't actually one.
Yeah, but that's because a Herdstone would have corrupted the flow of energy, isn't it?

I'm not saying it's one, because a Herdstone is a specific thing, I'm saying it might be being used as one.

We know you can get useful result without any corruption by just stopping before that last step.

So that might explain the forest and how the beastmen got here: use Morghur's knowledge/instincts and the locals runemaster's lost Waystone lore to adapt it enough to use as a Herdstone, and the magic forest and accompanying beastmen just follow one after the other.
 
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can our elf friendo give insight in this shenanigans? feels like he is no gonna be at the council

[] WRITE IN: either alter meeting protocol and invite Asarnil to the command meeting, or brief him on what's going on immediately after, if we're going to consider staying to scope out the situation, we need to convince him that command hasn't gone insane to try to prevent him from just flying off, as he's one of the other people on this expedition that can just leave if it looks like we're lost.

This is one of those 'remember to breathe' things that really don't need to be specified.

Seems to be the case.
 
Am I missing anything?
I came up with another theory: Morghur, either the one seen here or Morghur period, is actually an Incarnate Elemental of some sort. Presumably an Incarnate Elemental of Beasts. Ghur.

When the Beastmen conjure up an Elemental... well. They're Beastmen. Obviously, they corrupt it with Dhar. So it's an Incarnate Elemental of Ghur and Dhar.

The constant sightings of Morghur, is because that's when the Beastmen successfully manage to incarnate an Elemental. And of course they then send him against hated enemies or something.

Maybe there's Ghyran involved in here too. Maybe the Ghyran results in Dhar. Maybe the Beastmen add Dhar manually, because Beastmen.


Karak Eight Peaks had Bok. Maybe Karag Dum used their Waystone to summon an Incarnate Elemental, and boost it to incredible power, and an Elemental of Beasts -- especially when boosted with the power of an entire goddamn Waystone -- is shaped a lot like Morghur?
 
So that might explain the forest and how the beastmen got here: use Morghur's knowledge/instincts and the locals runemaster's lost Waystone lore to adapt it enough to use as a Herdstone, and the magic forest and accompanying beastmen just follow one after the other.
...Random thought, but could they have used the Waystone to grow a forest specifically as bait?
 
The Colleges (and therefore Mathilde) don't know what the Geomantic Web is, assuming that's what you meant by Geomancy. Waystones are also classified, so this would be revealing the existence of the dwarven network to people who aren't in the know.
I wasn't referring to the geomantic web, mainly because I keep forgetting it exists. I was using "geomancy" as a catch all term for magical landscaping, much like the terraforming Panoramia is doing down south.
 
...Random thought, but could they have used the Waystone to grow a forest specifically as bait?
Like, to attract beastmen? I figured these guys used their wild paths or whatever they are called that let them teleport all over the world from forest to forest. Just instinctually being drawn to Morghurr.

The familiar feeling Matthilde is getting seems to me like proof this is a genuine Beastmen Murder Forest, as that's what most of the serious forests in the Empire look and probably feel like.
 
I came up with another theory:
@Redshirt Army if you include this, please make sure to mark it as coming after Boney's post about how close we had gotten, so people don't get confused. It's a good thought and definitely useful, but as pointed out this is a logic puzzle and best to keep things and hints straight for that.
Like, to attract beastmen? I figured these guys used their wild paths or whatever they are called that let them teleport all over the world from forest to forest. Just instinctually being drawn to Morghurr.

The familiar feeling Matthilde is getting seems to me like proof this is a genuine Beastmen Murder Forest, as that's what most of the serious forests in the Empire look and probably feel like.
I meant more for Morghur himself. It could be part of why he's up here instead of down south where he usually is.
 
Because the temperature is hotter than normal, which is something that might be the result of tons of Dhar being burnt in fire; and because there is far less Dhar here than there should be; there's less than in the rest of the Chaos Wastes that Mathilde has seen. (When, really, if Morghur is here the place should have way the hell more Dhar than even the Chaos Wastes we've seen.)
My take on why that was is that the impossibly old forest ringing the mountain is locationally displaced, and took both its normal climate and comparitive lack of corruption with it. This may also be why Cor-Dum is up here; runemasters tried to...teleport the mountain out of the wastes or something, and ended up teleporting "out of the wastes" to them. They ended up bringing an evil demigod along for the ride because apparently they have the actual worst possible luck on miscasts.

Considering that Borek wasn't freaking the hell out about the huge evil beastman being here, he knew this had happened, and at that point I think one of the theories about Dum capturing him and eventually deciding he was more useful defending them than rotting in a cell is correct.
 
@BoneyM, when Mathilde checked on the flow moving south from Vlag after it was recovered, was she at all able to get a sense of how much it seemed like it increased with the addition of another hold? Or was the distance too much to get any sort of detail beyond "Magic is flowing"?

I'm wondering if we could potentially get some idea about how much of the yield Dum might be tapping, if it turns out suddenly it seems like 10x as much was being sent that would indicate that Dum might be using a large amount of its intake with only a comparative trickle flowing down.
 
The first post after the update was #200289. The last post before Boney's three bookmarks post was #202030. That's a total of 1742 posts. Wolfram Alpha tells me that when choosing any three posts out of 1742 or to put it another way 1742C3, there are 879,518,380 possible combinations. Now all we need to do is sort through nearly a billion possibilities to figure out the right one, piece of cake. :V
 
I meant more for Morghur himself. It could be part of why he's up here instead of down south where he usually is.
Could be, if we assume spawning him here was their plan all along.

I'd expect that kind of thing to be one of the Elf Colab scenarios tho, as I can't see them having the expertise to lure him here just like that.

I can buy them beating him into submission or outstubborning him through various methods (MR of Kingship, MR of Valaya, some kind of heretical runes that interact with gribblies like him from their history of fighting chaos, etc), but that kind of summoning seems very outside their wheelhouse. He just ain't a local.
 
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Hmm. Assuming about 40% of the posts can be easily ruled out, it's more like 180,000,000, or 1000C3 rounded upward by the 20 million.

A stroll in the park :V
 
Okay, so going down my proposed theory list and doing some pruning:

Priors:
- Dum has not fallen to Chaos.
- Mathilde would spot if this was an illusion.
- This is the real (or a real) "Cor-Dum".
- Borek knew of "Cor-Dum" prior to leaving and had a positive relationship.

Right off the bat that eliminates the A1 branch, so let's drill down into A2.

It can't be A2.1 or A2.4.

That leaves Morgur being created by Karag Dum (possibly as some form of elemental), being purified by Karag Dum and helping them in exchange, being raised by Karag Dum, or his body having the soul(s) kicked out and replaced with one of Borek's relatives - or some combination of these.

I think that purification has a stronger case than most of the others, since it explains the heat and desert quite readily in a way the others don't. It could be combined with several of the other options, though - kicking the soul out would probably also involve a lot of purification, for example.
 
So I have a theory on the timeline here.

There are three points that I think are worth keeping in mind:
1: Borek, by all accounts, didn't think that Karak Dum had fallen when he started this expedition.
2: The very second he took a look at it now, he thinks they need forgiveness from the Ancestors.
3: Most crucially, Borek did not seem surprised to see Morghur

I really do like the "Morghur was born into a Karak Dum family, who managed to runically contain his nature" theory. It's a theory that's fully congruent with what we know is possible and it is fits with BoneyM's stated views that anyone can be redeemed. The problem is that it in at of itself doesn't explain why Borek only thinks Karak Dum is beyond saving now, when he clearly has to have known Morghur's existance from before he left it. Something has to have changed between the two points, and we do have to do some finagling -and indeed some blatant guessing and assumptions- to make it fit, but I think it can be done.

So what I think could've happened is this:

Before Karak Dum got swallowed up by the Chaos Wastes, Morghur got killed in Bretonnia and got "reborn" to a family in Karak Dum. Since Dawi are notoriously resistant to mutations, the actual "growth" of Morghur got slowed down enough for Karak Dum's runesmiths (renowned as among the greatest) to be able to develop a way for pre-Morghur to retain his sanity and literal grip on reality as he grew up. This is not inherently different from what the rune of Valaya does, so it is not an impossible feat to imagine. The dwarves of Karak Dum now had a fully sapient and very powerful Beastman living peacefully among them, a fact that they chose to keep secret because let's be honest, the vast majority of Order factions would not believe for a second that this could actually happen.

So now Borek leaves Karak Dum, which notably was still part of a mountain range at this point, to make sure help actually arrived for the oncoming Chaos Storm. Probably with a tearful goodbye from Morghur, because that's how fiction rolls. And the warning was not heeded, Dum got swallowed up, Vlag disappeared, Borek swore vengeance and the rest is history.

Karak Dum then spends somewhere between 20 and 200 years under siege from the Chaos forces, where Morghul naturally participates in defending his home. The scene seems dire and impossible (because it is), and so the Dawi decide to go radical. Using the genius of their runesmiths and bits of ancestral beastmen knowledge stuck in Morghul's mind, they manage to make their waystone appear and/or act like a non-corrupted herdstone. Which is what made the Beastman forest (that Mathilde described as disturbingly familiar, which means it is similar to Imperial forests in some way Mathilde can't explain) appear in the mountains, where a forest of that type wouldn't normally be able to flourish. But since that isn't enough to ward off Chaos forces, I think what they eventually did is rely on Morghur's metaphysical nature as a world-altering demigod to either attract beastmen to their cause or to turn themselves into something beastmen like. Which are obvious enough ideas as last-case solutions that they were probably discussed before Borek left, and that he then recognised on sight once he got here.

I also think this pure herdstone is what caused the desert to appear, by rendering the surrounding landscape "unliveable", but I'll admit that that's the shakiest part of this already shaky theory.
I agree with your theory in that the reason why Morghur hasn't been seen is probably because he's been here this whole time since his last sighting.

But I think it more likely that Borek's actions are indicative of some shame that he believed was greater than the hold simply being fallen to chaos.


I believe that Morghur is still a force of chaos and madness, and that the reason for their defense of the hold is based on something buried in that madness.
I suspect that Morghur's original incarnation was a dwarf, possibly a dwarf from Dum, possibly someone sworn to defend Grimnir who followed them north far beyond advisable limits.
And Morghur Shadowgave's continual reincarnation is a corrupted variant on normal dwarf reincarnation.

I suspect that the shame he wished hidden was that Dum blames their ancestor(morghur), and thus themselves, for the existence of modern martially and tactically inclined beastmen of the sort with a compulsive drive to destroy civilisation(would have originally been aimed at the dwarves, as at the time of Grimnir's leaving dwarves were the only civilisation in the old world.).
And would rather that the Karaz Ankor believe that Dum resisted falling into corruption as best they could before falling to chaos, rather than having the details of the hold's shame in why they were able to make a pact with Morghur exposed.
 
@BoneyM do we know if Karag Dum had had forests, or any amount of trees, around it?
My take on why that was is that the impossibly old forest ringing the mountain is locationally displaced, and took both its normal climate and comparitive lack of corruption with it. This may also be why Cor-Dum is up here; runemasters tried to...teleport the mountain out of the wastes or something, and ended up teleporting "out of the wastes" to them. They ended up bringing an evil demigod along for the ride because apparently they have the actual worst possible luck on miscasts.

Considering that Borek wasn't freaking the hell out about the huge evil beastman being here, he knew this had happened, and at that point I think one of the theories about Dum capturing him and eventually deciding he was more useful defending them than rotting in a cell is correct.
I assumed that the primeval forest was just created by Morghur on-location, honestly. Or an already-present forest was turned into it.

i.e. Sure it looks like a normal ('normal') ancient-forest-that-man-has-never-touched, but is it really? Maybe the demigod-like figure just snapped his fingers and grew it.

Maybe forests just grow around Morghur. Or other terrain is transformed into trees, because he likes forests. Or there were some amount of trees, and he aged and empowered them.

Or maybe they used some captured, or traded, Acorns from the Wood Elves or something. Who knows.
 
The first post after the update was #200289. The last post before Boney's three bookmarks post was #202030. That's a total of 1742 posts. Wolfram Alpha tells me that when choosing any three posts out of 1742 or to put it another way 1742C3, there are 879,518,380 possible combinations. Now all we need to do is sort through nearly a billion possibilities to figure out the right one, piece of cake. :V
Don't worry, I'm sure at least half the 1742 posts were arguments and infighting rather than suggestions!
 
SECTION B - Alliance.
  1. Karag Dum made an alliance with forces that the rest of the Karaz Ankor would not accept...
    1. ...and have fully fallen to Chaos.
    2. ...and have a tentative alliance with the Beastmen.
    3. ...and worked with the High Elves (and/or Wood Elves).

Am I missing anything?
They might not be conventional beastmen, but beastdwarfs, purposefully mutated by Cor-Dum to serve as slayer equivalents.


@BoneyM Is the frill he has like a mohawk or like a triceratops bone "crown"?
pretty sure It's called a frill.
 
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