Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

[Andres]

What information is there on the Eonir outside of 3e, 4e, and Black Library?

 

[Mopman43]

What information is there on the Eonir outside of 3e, 4e, and Black Library?

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Far as I'm aware, sweet fuck-all. Not aware of anything in the Black Library either.

 

[uju32]

We must act or all is doomed!
Because clearly nobody else knows how to do their job and trying to get a handle on the wizards we brought is completely useless waste of time.
I hate this attitude of Mathilde having to do everything on her own.
People argued that we had to go scout the chorfs and the skaven, and neither had fuck all to do with the expedition.
This is unlikely to be any different.

Could Mathilde help with the scouting, sure.
Is she going to be the one thing that stops the wolrd from ending, unlikely.

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1) By this argument we should have left Karag Vlag to the Rangers, who after all knew the job and the terrain better than us.
We should have also left securing extra food to the Rangers.
We should have simply focused on wrangling wizards.

Ditto with all the sneaking we did during the reconquest. We should have stuck to wizardly things, and not taken command of K8P in Belegars absence, or tried to ambush Birdmuncha underneath the caldera.
We should have left the We alone as well. Our adventures in writing Elven biographies are also transgressive activities.

And our continued involvement in the EIC is obviously way outside our remit.

This, is a terrible argument.If unicorns, the dragons.
Chaos does not give a crap about Kurgans, Khorne is not going to save Iron Wolves when their constant suicidal charges leave them weakened, instead he will switch to cheering thenext tribe that comes and wipes them out.

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2)This statement is actually provably false.
We know Chaos canonically has a Chaos Champion in charge of these people less than forty years from now, which denotes more than the baseline amount of attention that Chaos gives to most of its human victims. It has had the Iron Wolves camping a Dragon Ogre' spawn point for several hundred years.

Thats rather more than the baseline for many tribes AFAIK.

Skaven are very different from Kurgan, for one, they breed like rats, have a lifespan of couple decades, and a constant personal attention of their god, unlike the Kurgans. And we just saw one of their big clans get wiped out because they got weakened, using them as an example for why Iron wolves are going to be saved by magical intervention of chaos is beyond silly.
And trying to bring beastmen and orcs into this is even worse.

You keep on doomsaying, i'm done with this.

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3)I think you are under a misapprehension about the centrality of Chaos influence to the Iron Wolves and most of the Kurgan.
From the Wiki article on the Kurgan in general, not just the Iron Wolves, I quote:

Since Old Worlders only ever encounter these people as antagonists, they believe that the entire race consists of nothing more than bellicose brutes bent on rapine and plunder. In truth, the Kurgan have as much of a complex and rich culture as anyone else. They are a deeply spiritual people, seeing the works of their gods in all things, from the whispers on the wind to the swaying grasses of the steppe. Theirs are dynamic gods, beings who keep the world in its natural state: being one of constant change and perpetual flux. Everything is in the process of becoming. Thus, mutation is not an affliction but rather an evolution of divine will made manifest in the flesh. When a mortal gains some change in his form, he is said to be favoured by the tribal god and is accorded a place of special status. To hasten these changes, many Kurgan bind the heads of their children so they grow oddly, being elongated and malformed. Since the body is the physical expression of divine will, the Kurgan place special emphasis on strength and mastery of the physical form.[1c]​

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The Kurgan live in tribal families like the Norscans do, but these are not settled towns or villages, but rather travelling groups that wander the vastness of the Steppes and the Wastes with their livestock. They are led by chieftains who claim a special connection with their gods, who dictate to them the direction they ride. They travel with their entire families, so that it is literally the case for many of them to be born in the saddle. Most of these show some taint of Chaos upon them, whether it be benign or otherwise, and these marks are flaunted and displayed with pride as a sign of their blessing. Many of them go further and try to make their children even more grotesque by binding their skulls while young, so that their heads grow in the long and thin manner so distinctive of their people.[3b]​

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Im not really sure how to convince you of the centrality and power of Chaos influence on the success of many nomad tribes.
Not without this getting contentious.

Let me try once more: This is the legend of the Great Kurgan, racial hero of the Kurgan

With a never ending hunger for power over the steppe lands and their people, the Great Kurgan prayed to the myriad gods of his people -- he prayed to the winds of the North, South, West and East. He prayed to earth and sky and rain. By day to the sun and by night to the moon, giving up great offerings of slaves and plunder to curry their favour. The Great Kurgan was mighty, but he was wise enough to know that the Dark Gods of the Uttermost North were mightiest above all -- and so in pact with Chaos's dark lords did the Great Kurgan pledge himself and his race in fulsome service, and swore before the Gods that he would never falter in his dues to them. The Great Kurgan had taken many wives from amongst the clans, but they had only borne him four sons: Four brothers who were rivals to each other for their father's favour and the glory of conquest. Sons whom their father had, in his greed, pledged to the Four Great Gods.[1a]​

In the legends of the steppesmen, it is said that the Great Kurgan drew his sons to his side after gaining victory in a great battle. There, within his ger, the warlord spoke of the favour he had been granted, and how by the grace of the Gods he had been allowed to forge the Kurgan peoples into a mighty empire, driving before them the hosts of Man, Orc and Dwarf to ruin. With this, his sons roared their battlecries and boasted of how they would expand their father's domain yet further and spill the blood of his foes. Yet the chieftain also spoke of how there are debts that not even a king could not avoid to pay, and of how it pleases the gods to take from a man that which he loves above all. In great despair did the mighty Zar fall to his knees as the Children of the Dark Powers began to walk amongst his people, driving many to the darkest depths of insanity and debased obeisance. Within his tent, the myriad trophies and battle-honours of the Great Kurgan were cast contemptuously down, and the Dark Gods did take from the Great Kurgan that which he treasured most. His four sons, taken screaming from their father's city, each transfigured with the stigmatas of the Dark Gods. Khorne -- Gore-clad Lord of Battle, Slaanesh -- Prince of Fell Pleasures, Nurgle -- Corrupt Father of Plagues, and Tzeentch -- Changer of Ways.[1a]​

With his beloved sons taken from him, the Great Kurgan withheld his tears and instead raised his skull-chalice in thanksgiving to his masters, though he knew well now that every victory he would attain from henceforth would ring hollow, and every joy would turn to ashes in his mouth. The bargain complete, the fickle gods grew bored with the Great Kurgan's exploits, turning their attentions to their other servants, and met the Great Kurgan's prayers with cold silence. Though still mighty beyond all reckoning, a shade of ill-omen followed the warlord closely. His subjects whispered dark things in his passing, and warriors began to offer sacrifices in the hopes of avoiding his fate. Soon, with no bloodline to follow him, his lords gave in to cruel games of politicking, each vying for greater power and glory and rulership of the empire. Thus it was that the Great Kurgan saw his mighty empire, which he won through strength and cunning, fall from within thanks to the quarrelsome nature of his own people. All glory it once had were now ground to dust and forgotten. When finally the Great Kurgan fell in battle, none would speak of his fate, and so it was that he became all but forgotten, a fireside legend amongst the men of the North. As the centuries passed, many warlords arose in the Steppes, claiming descent from this legendary father of the Kurgan people, but none could ever hope to match the legendary strength of this ancient warrior-king.[1a]​

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[Nerdasaurus Rex]

We must act or all is doomed!
Because clearly nobody else knows how to do their job and trying to get a handle on the wizards we brought is completely useless waste of time.
I hate this attitude of Mathilde having to do everything on her own.
People argued that we had to go scout the chorfs and the skaven, and neither had fuck all to do with the expedition.
This is unlikely to be any different.

Could Mathilde help with the scouting, sure.
Is she going to be the one thing that stops the wolrd from ending, unlikely.

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Could you stop blowing everything I say out of proportion?

First, I do support talking to the wizards. They are our responsibility, and we should be talking to them—especially the journeymen. It's Junior Wolf Scout I don't think is important, but that's a different discussion.

Second, I never said we had to do everything ourselves. I am saying we have a unique set of abilities that can be utilised to negate some of the advantages our enemies have. I have never claimed that they can beat us. I am saying that a fight is highly likely (probably now, almost certainly on the way back when we're weakened), and that it could costs us significant resources to fight them on a field of their choosing, which is why we need to use our skills to investigate and disrupt them before they can mobilise against us. We have cannon. We have wizards. We have a dragon. We will win the fight. But what will we lose to earn that victory? The knights? The rangers? A steam-wagon? Any of those would be disastrous for the expedition.

There is no doom and gloom here. I am just trying to be practical about what impact Mathlide can have in this moment, at this location, against these foes. And I think she can have a substantial impact if she takes the time to scout and acquire intel on them rather than waiting for them to come to us.

 

[Boney]

Rune craft and magic don't work together very well on that sort of scale if I remember word of boney correctly.

@BoneyM do I got that right?

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Yes. Runes absorb magic, so trying to put runes and magic together runs into pretty fundamental problems.

how different is this from golden age Dawi standards?

Santa Dawi is technically a Living Ancestor but is one of the younger rune lords.

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Questions about Dwarf society in RS belong in the RS thread.

These are not rational actors—they are chaos worshippers.

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Chaos adherents are not rational actors.

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They might operate on different principles, but they're still thinking beings in a functional society.

Would the female equivalent of these be Langkgrindali or Langkgrindi? I can't tell if the al at the end of grindal is a suffix or just part of the word.

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Langkgrindi, though 'Langktrommi' can be considered gender-neutral because 'tromm' translates literally as 'beard' but can also mean 'amount of respect a being is due'.

 

[SuperSonicSound]

I think the mistake people are making is that Chaos by itself is not Rational to 'normal' Mortal sensibilities, because they are not within the same understanding or bound by the exact ruleset as we do. For example, Daemons quite obviously work under different rules simply as a matter of fact, given that a Greater Daemon may have already met Math in its own past that is within Math's own future.

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I'm sure the Iron wolves and other tribes are perfectly rational within their own context, it's just that context includes active malicious gods, a warped perspective and literal control of their tribe by a creature that almost certainly doesn't really value humanity beyond it's immediate benefits, like when @picklepikkl talks about what Iron wolves quest would do regarding attacking our convey, he's not seeing that fundamentally they operate on a different risk/reward axis to us.

Attacking the convoy successfully is likely to garner them massive accolades and divine favour, especially if they manage to sacrifice a Dragon to chaos. Sure it sounds insane but honestly? We've no idea what kind of magical artillery they have on hand. Given that chances are they have shaman of the eight and almost definitely of the four I would not be surprised if they had us matched or even potentially out gunned in magic.

 

[zup]

I mean, if worst comes to worst, we do have a solution to any and all manpower problems.

EDIT: Though I suppose they won't count as "meatshields"...

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Zombies are still made of meat just not living meat.

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Meat is flesh that has ceased to live. Zombies are very meatshieldy.

 

[DragonParadox]

I'm sure the Iron wolves and other tribes are perfectly rational within their own context, it's just that context includes active malicious gods, a warped perspective and literal control of their tribe by a creature that almost certainly doesn't really value humanity beyond it's immediate benefits, like when @picklepikkl talks about what Iron wolves quest would do regarding attacking our convey, he's not seeing that fundamentally they operate on a different risk/reward axis to us.

Attacking the convoy successfully is likely to garner them massive accolades and divine favour, especially if they manage to sacrifice a Dragon to chaos. Sure it sounds insane but honestly? We've no idea what kind of magical artillery they have on hand. Given that chances are they have shaman of the eight and almost definitely of the four I would not be surprised if they had us matched or even potentially out gunned in magic.

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They also probably have Chaos Warriors and maybe even a Champion of one of the Four, if that Champion is of Tzeench he could have gotten word of us from the Daemons in Vlag

 

[Boney]

fundamentally they operate on a different risk/reward axis to us

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They really don't. Even their relationship with the Chaos Gods isn't that exotic, as the Empire has its own set of deities willing and able to distribute punishments and rewards based on conduct. Mathilde has encountered multiple.

 

[Valmond]

Attacking the convoy succesfully will garner you great glory, honor, influence, riches, etc...
Attacking the convoy unsuccesfully will garner you dead.

Any iron wolf leader who wants to be a leader long, needs to make a decision on if the risk is worth it.

 

[Alratan]

Although I imagine that Mathilde is on the look out for them, it's worth reviewing what the collateral effects of having a Lord of Change manifest in the world are:

The presence of a Lord of Change is heralded by a variety of strange effects. From sudden and powerful storms, to random mutations that riddle the flesh of the innocent, nothing is beyond the capabilities of these Greater Daemons. Their reach is far, causing the common man to become fickle and contrary in his emotions. Animals act strangely, spooked by phantom images. What was once a brave and courageous dog is reduced to a whining, mewling beast terrified by the softest sounds. Spider swarms creep through windows, whilst mice scramble to escape the fields only to be trampled under the feet of confused and startled commoners. The Lords of Change set minds on fire, evoking madness and strange behaviour.

The change on the minds is reflected in the changing of form. Mutations are more rampant. Moles and birthmarks move across the flesh as if by their own accord. Eye colours change to pink, cyan, and lavender, along with hair colour, and even the very flesh. Such changes may be minor, whilst others are magnificent, but none in proximity to a Lord of Change emerge unscathed. Though these Greater Daemons principally affect the minds, they also injure the environment. Ordinary objects change colour, assuming contrasting and clashing hues or cycling through a number of different patterns until they begin to vibrate with a disturbing eagerness to pick themselves up and wander away. Familiar landmarks vanish, road signs and fingerposts jumble, and the letters in texts seem to lift off the page to rearrange themselves in new and interesting combinations.

Trees undergo complete transformations, becoming altogether new species. Dead wood becomes living once more, whilst young saplings decay in a matter of moments. Swirls of strange clouds skid across the sky, changing shape and assuming new forms that twist and writhe in a constant state of becoming. But of all the changes the Feathered Lords bring, none are as drastic as the effects they have on magic. It's said that when a Lord of Change appears, the currents of magic move in contradictory and conflicting ways, undulating, shifting and producing unexpected and bizarre results. Pools of Dhar ignite and burn with a purple or brown luminescence, and the most practised Magister finds his magical abilities thrown into disarray. Chaos manifestations appear everywhere, and those who see them go mad with fear and panic. It is a terrifying experience to face the might of the Lord of Change, and those who do never emerge unscathed.

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That's not how words work, The trick Ranald pulled for the Empress was convincing people she was eligable for the seat, not actually tricking people into thinking she was empress, or tricking people that she had a baby. And Mathilde doesn't have a dwarf soul because Ranald didn't care about Mathilde until sometime into her Stirland appointment.

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The Aethyr and the gods that arguably exist there is outside of time, so cause and effect don't have to line up.

That's exactly how words work. You become Empress when you act like one, and people start obeying your commands. In short, it's a social/political construct. If the foremost experts/authorities of the Karaz Ankor declare somebody to be a dwarf, and that person now gets treated as a dwarf... then by that same social/political power, they are a dwarf. Now, it can be claimed that said person lacks some properties that all other dwarfs share, metaphysical traits and the like... but now you're arguing against the Karaz Ankor on what it means to be a member of the dawi.

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I really think we want to get Gunnars to edicate us in Gazulite Lore as soon as we can, so we can get some insight into what this declaration implies. Before, secret lore on dwarven souls was just of academic interest. Now it's very personally and potentially very important to her future magical development (and indeed, survival).

It's Quest Canon in the same sense that Ranald and Shallya being a romantic couple is. Not strictly proven, but believed by every character to which the knowledge is relevant.

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Well, not really, Mathilde believes it, but lots of other characters who she may well interact with one day might, for example, consider Him a rapist. I could see the Bretonnian leadership of the Cult of Shallya developing such a belief.

Youth / Garazi: What is considered to be the first day of a Dwarf's life is not necessarily when they are born, but when they are given their name during a set of ceremonies at a Temple of Grungni with their male relatives, and at a Temple of Valaya with their female relatives. Over their childhood, they will be taught Dwarven law, tradition, and history, the basics of combat, mining, and metalworking, and the basics of their Clan's speciality. They will also spend a minimum of two years working in the mines of their Hold. For those that do not live within a Karak, they may travel to one to undergo the proper ceremonies, or they may be visited by the proper Priests.

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Note that Mathilde hasn't done this. Yet. Now she's been declared a dwarf she probably should. Not the mines, as I'd argue that her efforts underneath Karak Eight Peaks count for this, but the naming at the Temple of Valaya and the education in dwarven law, tradition and history.

They really don't. Even their relationship with the Chaos Gods isn't that exotic, as the Empire has its own set of deities willing and able to distribute punishments and rewards based on conduct. Mathilde has encountered multiple.

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On that note, do we know of any Daemon Princes of order gods? THe Green Knight is arguably one, but do we know of any others?

 

[Sparsebeard]

Attacking the convoy succesfully will garner you great glory, honor, influence, riches, etc...
Attacking the convoy unsuccesfully will garner you dead.

Any iron wolf leader who wants to be a leader long, needs to make a decision on if the risk is worth it.

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I think it's disingenuous to say that we are too though a nut to crack for the Chaos Barbs to attack us EVEN if we assume (and it's a big assumption) that their leadership is rational right now. Sure, we look dangerous but we also represent an incredibly juicy opportunity. I mean, just the steel from the wagons could probably be melted into an army's worth of armors or weaponry. And you have to think that there are plenty of shinies inside those metal boxes. Plus, all the street cred a leader would gain from a victory over us.

The way I see it, whether or not the Iron Wolves attack us will depend on many factors :

1. How strong and centralised they are right now, if they have an army numbering in the tens of thousands it's no big deal sending a fraction of that. This is something that other scouts can't really know without infiltrating at least a small gathering.

2. Whether or not they have any other pressing conflicts of importance right now. Last we heard, many of their neigbours were warring with the Yusak.

3. The current leadership. Might be a reckless insane chaos worshiper, might be a somewhat cautious individual. We don't know... we could learn this by infiltrating.

4. Whether the four decide to send a message or not.

And thinking that us scouting (as opposed to the 100 flying knights) is gonna be what trigger an assault on the convoy seems... unlikely.

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

That's exactly how words work. You become Empress when you act like one, and people start obeying your commands. In short, it's a social/political construct. If the foremost experts/authorities of the Karaz Ankor declare somebody to be a dwarf, and that person now gets treated as a dwarf... then by that same social/political power, they are a dwarf. Now, it can be claimed that said person lacks some properties that all other dwarfs share, metaphysical traits and the like... but now you're arguing against the Karaz Ankor on what it means to be a member of the dawi.

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The problem isn't that they believe her to be Dawi and thus legally she is, that's clear, I was arguing against the idea that Mathilde actually literally has a dwarven soul, since Silent was responding to Jyn, who commented that she didn't actually have a dwarf soul after people seemed to be assuming that Mathilde actually had one. It's not about debating legalities, it's about debating if Ranald actually literally stole a floating Dwarfs soul (?) to put into a human (??) who then ended up worshipping him, either so he did it retroactively or things just lined up that way (???).

 

[matvprok]

Well, not really, Mathilde believes it, but lots of other characters who she may well interact with one day might, for example, consider Him a rapist. I could see the Bretonnian leadership of the Cult of Shallya developing such a belief.

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To quote the quest:

You've heard several versions of the story of Ranald's ascension, and several of them don't sit very well with you. You'd very much prefer to believe the best of your oldest friend.

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Mathilde believes it, but unpleasant takes on Ranald and Shallya story do exist in DL canon.
(Also can someone please tell me how to quote a message without pinging one who wrote it to avoid annoying Boney needlessly?)

Note that Mathilde hasn't done this. Yet. Now she's been declared a dwarf she probably should. Not the mines, as I'd argue that her efforts underneath Karak Eight Peaks count for this, but the naming at the Temple of Valaya and the education in dwarven law, tradition and history.

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In fact it's interesting would Mathilde have dwarven traditional rituals conducted upon her. Obviously not magical portions like Rites of Valaya conferring repellence to magic, but will we have to go through naming ritual? Seeing this after Expedition anyway, though.

 

[B_omega]

Spaghetti western eastern steppes actually.

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que ecstasy of gold every time a chaos dwarf is digging a tomb of gold..

 

[Valmond]

I think it's disingenuous to say that we are too though a nut to crack for the Chaos Barbs to attack us EVEN if we assume (and it's a big assumption) that their leadership is rational right now. Sure, we look dangerous but we also represent an incredibly juicy opportunity. I mean, just the steel from the wagons could probably be melted into an army's worth of armors or weaponry. And you have to think that there are plenty of shinies inside those metal boxes. Plus, all the street cred a leader would gain from a victory over us.

The way I see it, whether or not the Iron Wolves attack us will depend on many factors :

1. How strong and centralised they are right now, if they have an army numbering in the tens of thousands it's no big deal sending a fraction of that. This is something that other scouts can't really know without infiltrating at least a small gathering.

2. Whether or not they have any other pressing conflicts of importance right now. Last we heard, many of their neigbours were warring with the Yusak.

3. The current leadership. Might be a reckless insane chaos worshiper, might be a somewhat cautious individual. We don't know... we could learn this by infiltrating.

4. Whether the four decide to send a message or not.

And thinking that us scouting (as opposed to the 100 flying knights) is gonna be what trigger an assault on the convoy seems... unlikely.

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Too though to crack? MAybe not, probably, but maybe they can get enough horsemen to defeat us.
But doing so while keeping enough strength to protect the loot, that is very stationary, and difficult and time consuming to pull apart, is another thing.

1. Idea that Kurgans are numbering in the tens of thousands close enough that they can get here in time, is implausible at best, the horses and sheep would devour all the grass leading to starvation in short order.
2. Just because their neighbours are fighting now, does not mean they can't turn around and hit them if they get weakened, it takes years to build back strength if you loose large amounts of men (horses you can capture, buy or teal, warriors take a decade to replace).
3. How insane the leader is does not matter if they lack the numbers to attack us, and Taalites will see any large fores approaching.
4. Same as the previous.

We might get attacked, we might not.
Could Mathilde be useful as a scout? Yes.
Is she necessary? I'd say no.
Can she do other things nobody else can do instead of acting as redundancy for cavalry we brought specifically for scouting? Absolutely.

 

[FallenPears]

The disappointment at the understated Magisterial promotion, and delight at the secret Lord Magisters Club/pocket universe.

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I sorta wonder now, was the secret Lord Magister initiation ritual actually a generally done thing, or did Algard see we were disappointed with the original so gathered all the others to ham it up when it was decided we would be getting the promotion.

"This is ridiculous."

"I'm actually quite enjoying it myself."

"That's the right attitude Melkoth. Now just one more rehearsal guys, trust me she'll love it."

 

[storryeater]

I sorta wonder now, was the secret Lord Magister initiation ritual actually a generally done thing, or did Algard see we were disappointed with the original so gathered all the others to ham it up when it was decided we would be getting the promotion.

"This is ridiculous."

"I'm actually quite enjoying it myself."

"That's the right attitude Melkoth. Now just one more rehearsal guys, trust me she'll love it."

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Considering that ulgu is also about showmanship, and the fact that the council room seems to be genuinely there (they wouldn't have moved it for Mathilde) I imagine that this is close enough to standard procedure.

 

[DragonParadox]

The problem isn't that they believe her to be Dawi and thus legally she is, that's clear, I was arguing against the idea that Mathilde actually literally has a dwarven soul, since Silent was responding to Jyn, who commented that she didn't actually have a dwarf soul after people seemed to be assuming that Mathilde actually had one. It's not about debating legalities, it's about debating if Ranald actually literally stole a floating Dwarfs soul (?) to put into a human (??) who then ended up worshipping him, either so he did it retroactively or things just lined up that way (???).

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Retroactively does not mean anything in the atemporal Aethyr, though it might seen that way from a human perspective

 

[BurnNote]

I sorta wonder now, was the secret Lord Magister initiation ritual actually a generally done thing, or did Algard see we were disappointed with the original so gathered all the others to ham it up when it was decided we would be getting the promotion.

"This is ridiculous."

"I'm actually quite enjoying it myself."

"That's the right attitude Melkoth. Now just one more rehearsal guys, trust me she'll love it."

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I really, really like this. That would be super sweet. There's a lot of grumbling, but they all go along to make their new little sister happy (and because secretly, they kind of want it too).

 

[Execute/Dumbo]

Retroactively does not mean anything in the atemporal Aethyr, though it might seen that way from a human perspective

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It's not about retroactive or atemporal theory, it's about considering Occam's Razor in a setting where we have no idea what really happens to dwarf souls if they're not taken by Gazul. We know what the Dwarves consider happens to them, but they're actively repulsive to the winds, they have no way of telling as they are.

We also don't know if Ranald can even do that, or if he'd be willing to do it. Can a god act so quickly, especially one not tied to any afterlife? Do dwarven souls fit in human containers? Can dwarven souls have magic? What are souls, when you get down to it? And, most importantly, would Boney actually retroactively overhaul so much in order to make the dwarves political stunt to make themselves feel better true?

 

[Alratan]

I really, really like this. That would be super sweet. There's a lot of grumbling, but they all go along to make their new little sister happy (and because secretly, they kind of want it too).

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And in a hundred years every Lord Magister is solemnly welcomed in the shadow plane of the Grey College in complete sincerity.

Such is how traditions are born.

It's not about retroactive or atemporal theory, it's about considering Occam's Razor in a setting where we have no idea what really happens to dwarf souls if they're not taken by Gazul. We know what the Dwarves consider happens to them, but they're actively repulsive to the winds, they have no way of telling as they are.

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We don't, but we can easily try to find out.

 

[BurnNote]

And in a hundred years every Lord Magister is solemnly welcomed in the shadow plane of the Grey College in complete sincerity.

Such is how traditions are born.

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I think there's always going to be a degree of wink wink nudge nudge because that's how greys work, but I see sincere appreciation while keeping awareness of the ridiculousness in the back of their mind.

 

[DragonParadox]

It's not about retroactive or atemporal theory, it's about considering Occam's Razor in a setting where we have no idea what really happens to dwarf souls if they're not taken by Gazul. We know what the Dwarves consider happens to them, but they're actively repulsive to the winds, they have no way of telling as they are.

We also don't know if Ranald can even do that, or if he'd be willing to do it. Can a god act so quickly, especially one not tied to any afterlife? Do dwarven souls fit in human containers? Can dwarven souls have magic? What are souls, when you get down to it? And, most importantly, would Boney actually retroactively overhaul so much in order to make the dwarves political stunt to make themselves feel better true?

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One the other side would the Conclave of Ancestor Priests lie about the status for someone's soul? Are they so deluded that they are just wrong about something so fundamental to their faith?

 

[The Void]

They really don't. Even their relationship with the Chaos Gods isn't that exotic, as the Empire has its own set of deities willing and able to distribute punishments and rewards based on conduct. Mathilde has encountered multiple.

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The main difference is mainly scale and how often the Chaos Gods intervene, which I recall is the fundamental basis for the North Men to call the Southern Gods weak in comparison, yeah? Not helped at all by how varied the Chaos Gods can manifest and therefore take hold in someone or something one way or another.