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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest

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chocolote12 said:
No, waste is right. Dhar has no constructive potential in and of itself; we've seen in-quest that it actively dissolves. Some idiots just keep trying because they think they'll be the exception.

The winds are radioactive materials, because if you mishandle them they'll become extremely hazardous, but otherwise they're less radioactive than taking a trip on a commercial passenger plane.
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Nagash disagrees.

Dhar has a lot of potential. Untrained Dhar use is basically wishcraft - you are trying to force Winds to do what you want, grab whatever Winds are needed for that feat, smash them together and call the result magic. Proper wizards (non-Dhar) start with methodology - they know what their Wind can and cannot do and formulate their goals accordingly. Dhar has more potential than any one Wind because it is (imperfect) combination of them. It is not safe and it is not easy (at least if you want to be good at it) but it is a road to power.

Oh, and basically all of Dark Elves' magic is Dhar use, and they are comparable to High Elves who use High Magic in power. Although DE are trained Dhar users and often use True Dhar.
 
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NavySeel said:
I also doubt that this is the first time a rune that stops Dhar has ever been created.
Why would something that unique just be given away, someone else is bound to have had the idea that it might protect them before.

Looking over the belt I haven't seen anything mentioning Dhar, it has protection from chaos and hostile spells, if we're the one using Dhar then Is the spell hostile?
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Yes, so many have been in these exact circumstances. Because just about every Wizard around has 15 Dwarf favor to spend and Kragg the Grim on call. /s

Wizards have only existed for 200 years, our situation being unique shouldn't be that much of a surprise.

Honestly, I don't want to go down the road of making an entirely new school of Dhar magic. All I want is to read through the Liber Mortis so that when shit inevitably hits the fan and we need a nuclear option Mathilde isn't flipping through the book blindly.

It's also likely to improve our understanding of magic in general, so that's nice.
 
Remember that Dhar and True Dhar are totally different things and are cast totally differently.
 
There is a difference between knowing how to do something, and actually doing it.

But first, we would have to read the book. Now that we have protection from Dhar, I'm in favor of reading the Book. Whatever we learn, at the very least, provides us with new options to consider.

They might be horrible and stupid and throw everything about mathilde into the winds, but we might also be able to learn something that would actually be useful and not-evil.
 
I just don't see any reason to attempt to use Dhar when we have a source of pure Qhaysh, that for somereason nobody is putting effort into researching.
We basically worked out what the box had done and what was leaking out then said cool and ignored it.
 
The dhar argument is way to early and wont be happening during the siege anyaway people so please lets avoid that for now.

The more relevant question is when we read liber mortis and what it gives us in options is alot more relevant but we kinda arent doing it during the siege i think unless we get desperate enough during it.

I wouldnt mind a child but dont love husband idea for us, so that they can inherit our knightly lands atleast even if they aint a wizard . We are a wizard and a woman so our child should inherit like that very easily .Or if u dont like that part then i guess we could channel that effort into apprentices instead or my thought of doing both maybe.

I dont love auxilary grey college idea unless it seriously contributes to wizarding lordship myself but if it does it might be worth the hassle.

and from what i remember we need to come out with like 13 dwarf favors from this to complete our manor and fort + mining and farm prospecting by them. Doing a dwarf style black powder factory and maybe a few extra niter factories at other cities for more passive income . Might have to sell to other karaks if we do this but it should be worth the effort.

Selling dwarf black powder to humans and niter factories in a few cities to dwarfs and suddenly we should have great enough income that money shouldnt be a massive issue for us. Our other goal with dwarf favors should be a killy weapon to make our assasin stick and hero battles abit more equal.

Also i wouldnt hate training during the siege people , especially with the dwarf greataxe to see how multiple melee weapon proc martial or not.

Another thought is probably to get a personal retinue going aswell . Maybe some people from the camp followers and adventures or mercenarys? Maybe they can also teach us stuff or help us train atleast or steal a skilled craftsman for our lands . Or maybe people to help run our future gun powder or niter factories?
 
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NavySeel said:
I just don't see any reason to attempt to use Dhar when we have a source of pure Qhaysh, that for somereason nobody is putting effort into researching.
We basically worked out what the box had done and what was leaking out then said cool and ignored it.
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Qhaysh isn't a substance. It's a technique for how to safely use more than one Wind of Magic in a spell at the same time which is impossible for the human mind to perform as it can't think multiple simultaneous thoughts and be in multiple simultaneous emotional-mental states at the same time I think that was the reason humans couldn't perform it). It also requires mental, physical, and spiritual corruption resistance on the level of the elves (who can chill in the Chaos Wastes for thousands of years without mutation) to perform, otherwise the contradictory warping of using multiple winds screws the caster up.

Dhar is what the (very flawed) human version trying to use multiple Winds of Magic in a single spell is called, and is the closest a human can do to using the Qhaysh technique.
 
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I think we can all agree to read that book at least once to establish the current IC knowledge on the topic of Dhar? It should clear up the various conflicting views.
 
VoidZero said:
I think we can all agree to read that book at least once to establish the current IC knowledge on the topic of Dhar? It should clear up the various conflicting views.
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The book shouldn't talk at all about regulat Dhar and its use. It's a book about Necromancy, using Shyish to manipulate True Dhar.
 
Gingganz said:
Except that we have something that Mathilde theorizes to be raw, liquid Qhaysh in a bottle. Well, a lot of bottles, actually.

And I would prefer to finally study the Qhaysh juice before reading the Liber Mortis.
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How would Mathilde know what Qhaysh actually is?

What the 'liquid Qhaysh' would be is an amazing battery for a High Mage. The Loremasters would probably pay a spectacular fortune for the box.
 
VoidZero said:
And this is why I don't like over complicated magic systems. =3= The winds ought to have simpler names.
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The book shouldn't talk at all about regular Brown and its use. It's a book about Necromancy, using Purple to manipulate True Brown.

Better? :tongue:

Editing in longer list of simplified colors:
Purple - Shyish, the Wind of Death
Grey - Ulgu, the Wind of Shadow
Yellow - Chamon, the Wind of Metal
Orange - Ghur, the Wind of Animal
White - Hysh, the Wind of Light
Blue - Azyr, the Wind of Sky
Red - Aqshy, the Wind of Fire
Green - Ghyran, the Wind of Plant and also a minor in healing

Rainbow - Qhaysh, the wind of weave-all-the-others-together-well
Brown - Dhar, the wind of mix-all-the-others-together-badly
 
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Alratan said:
Qhaysh isn't a substance. It's a technique for how to safely use more than one Wind of Magic in a spell at the same time which is impossible for the human mind to perform as it can't think multiple simultaneous thoughts and be in multiple simultaneous emotional-mental states at the same time I think that was the reason humans couldn't perform it). It also requires mental, physical, and spiritual corruption resistance on the level of the elves (who can chill in the Chaos Wastes for thousands of years without mutation) to perform, otherwise the contradictory warping of using multiple winds screws the caster up.

Dhar is what the (very flawed) human version trying to use multiple Winds of Magic in a single spell is called, and is the closest a human can do to using the Qhaysh technique.
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But if any human can use Qhaysh it would be Mathilde once she's put the effort into studying it.
Selling it would be a massive waste.
 
Gingganz said:
Except that we have something that Mathilde theorizes to be raw, liquid Qhaysh in a bottle. Well, a lot of bottles, actually.
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We don't, that's just a misnomer of a name we gave it. It's raw magic, yes, seemingly made of multiple winds without them stagnating and rotting, but that's the natural state of the world. It's a metaphorical 0, rather than a 1 or -1.
 
chocolote12 said:
We don't, that's just a misnomer of a name we gave it. It's raw magic, yes, seemingly made of multiple winds without them stagnating and rotting, but that's the natural state of the world. It's a metaphorical 0, rather than a 1 or -1.
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I mean I can't think of a better term for it, it's all the forms of magic mixed.
And also not Dhar so the logical conclusion is Qhaysh.
 
NavySeel said:
I mean I can't think of a better term for it, it's all the forms of magic mixed.
And also not Dhar so the logical conclusion is Qhaysh.
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Like I said, all the winds mixing without Dhar is the natural state of the world.

Think of it like pasta.

> A bunch of different types of pasta in a pantry looks vaguely orderly, but it's not doing anything, so you couldn't call it a meal.
> Cooking all the pastas wrong gets you a terrible meal, and all the pasta is ruined.
> Cooking all the pastas right gets you spaghetti, which is good.

We've somehow gotten all the different types of pasta into a bowl on the cooking counter (an inaccurate metaphor, it's more like they're in our pantry and they normally only co-mingle at the grocery store), but we still haven't actually tried to do anything with them, so they're still not a meal.

It's just pure magic.
 
chocolote12 said:
Like I said, all the winds mixing without Dhar is the natural state of the world.

Think of it like pasta.

> A bunch of different types of pasta in a pantry looks vaguely orderly, but it's not doing anything, so you couldn't call it a meal.
> Cooking all the pastas wrong gets you a terrible meal, and all the pasta is ruined.
> Cooking all the pastas right gets you spaghetti, which is good.

We've somehow gotten all the different types of pasta into a bowl on the cooking counter (an inaccurate metaphor, it's more like they're in our pantry and they normally only co-mingle at the grocery store), but we still haven't actually tried to do anything with them, so they're still not a meal.

It's just pure magic.
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...And I'm pretty sure that's Qhaysh.
Or at least the art of using it is.
 
Dark and High magic are more techniques than anything, though Dark also naturally occurs when winds get trapped and/or Tzeentch is having a giggle. If this stuff is raw unsplit magic bleeding from a warp entity, then it's not dark or high magic.
 
Heretek said:
Dark and High magic are more techniques than anything, though Dark also naturally occurs when winds get trapped and/or Tzeentch is having a giggle. If this stuff is raw unsplit magic bleeding from a warp entity, then it's not dark or high magic.
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I mean Dark magic is the Use of Dhar which is pure magic, but corrupted.
High magic is the use of pure magic or without said corruption.
The liquid we've copllected shows no signs of any form of corruption so using it would be high magic.
 
NavySeel said:
I mean Dark magic is the Use of Dhar which is pure magic, but corrupted.
High magic is the use of pure magic or without said corruption.
The liquid we've copllected shows no signs of any form of corruption so using it would be high magic.
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No. Qhaysh is distinct.

"It is a vision of beauty! Of absolute wonder! It is so bright that it burns my mortal eyes as well as my immaterial ones! It shines like mother-of-pearl lit by a thousand suns, scouring me with absolute brilliance and yet filling me with indescribable elation. How tempting it is to reach out for it, to try to grasp it and weave it as I do the purity of Hysh. And yet I know that were I to try, it would be my end, for even gazing upon it with the unseen eyes of my Gift, I am brought low and must close myself off to its glory after but a fleeting moment. How I long to stand for even the shortest time in the body of our great master and mentor, Loremaster Teclis, and be thus enabled to reach out and touch the radiance that is Qhaysh..."
 
chocolote12 said:
No. Qhaysh is distinct.

"It is a vision of beauty! Of absolute wonder! It is so bright that it burns my mortal eyes as well as my immaterial ones! It shines like mother-of-pearl lit by a thousand suns, scouring me with absolute brilliance and yet filling me with indescribable elation. How tempting it is to reach out for it, to try to grasp it and weave it as I do the purity of Hysh. And yet I know that were I to try, it would be my end, for even gazing upon it with the unseen eyes of my Gift, I am brought low and must close myself off to its glory after but a fleeting moment. How I long to stand for even the shortest time in the body of our great master and mentor, Loremaster Teclis, and be thus enabled to reach out and touch the radiance that is Qhaysh..."
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...All that seems to show is that said person can't use it.
Everything I can read on the wiki seems to suggest it's the use of all the winds of magic, which we have in liquid form.
 
NavySeel said:
I also doubt that this is the first time a rune that stops Dhar has ever been created.
Why would something that unique just be given away, someone else is bound to have had the idea that it might protect them before.

Looking over the belt I haven't seen anything mentioning Dhar, it has protection from chaos and hostile spells, if we're the one using Dhar then Is the spell hostile?
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The QM specifically said that, if we had had the belt when we were in Sylvannia, we would have been getting little flashes of fire puffing off us every now and then instead of getting prompts to give in and embrace the dhar.

Not that I'm saying that we should research dhar, or would be able to do so safely. Just that belt does indeed protect us from having dhar seep into our soul and drive us mad.

EDIT: As for us learning to wield Qhyash: Ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha.
No. Just no.
 
NavySeel said:
...All that seems to show is that said person can't use it.
Everything I can read on the wiki seems to suggest it's the use of all the winds of magic, which we have in liquid form.
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It shines like mother-of-pearl lit by a thousand suns, scouring people with absolute brilliance and yet filling them with indescribable elation, radiating so intensely that its light burns the eyes of physical beings as well as metaphysical ones.

Snake Juice does not shine like mother-of-pearl lit by a thousand suns, scouring people with absolute brilliance and yet filling them with indescribable elation, nor radiate so intensely that its light burns the eyes of physical beings as well as metaphysical ones.
 
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