Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A Shadowcraft Mage in D&D 3.5 can make illusions that pretend to be fireballs, but that pretend so well that they are somehow 80% more real than an actual 100% real fireball.
Only if you assume a jellyfish for a DM (ie. spineless) who allows free use of multiple dubious splatbooks and very generous interpretations of the rules.

In practice, I find that that sort of thing tends to work out about as well as a sovereign citizen argument for being immune to taxation because of an idiosyncratic reading of some obscure piece of legislation, and the judge then goes "nope".
 
I just noticed one of the options for how we can use our Dwarf rep is this.
"Have one of their experts consult with Mathilde on vaguely appropriate magical matters (enchantment, Qhaysh Juice study)
Same scale as the trainers, with a 12 if you want to briefly collaborate with a Runelord."

Do you guys think Kragg might be interested in taking a look at it?
 
I just noticed one of the options for how we can use our Dwarf rep is this.
"Have one of their experts consult with Mathilde on vaguely appropriate magical matters (enchantment, Qhaysh Juice study)
Same scale as the trainers, with a 12 if you want to briefly collaborate with a Runelord."

Do you guys think Kragg might be interested in taking a look at it?
If I'm remembering right, it costs 4 points for a basic rune priest to consult. 8 points for a runelord.

The cost for the greatest runelord living to consult would be ridiculous. 12 at least, I'm sure. Maybe more, considering how much Kragg hates new weird things and anything that breaks with tradition.
 
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If I'm remembering right, it costs 4 points for a basic rune priest to consult. 8 points for a runelord.

The cost for the greatest runelord living to consult would be ridiculous. 12 at least, I'm sure.
I'm pretty sure it would be worth it.
Just look what he did when we asked for something vague.
We might also be able to reduce that by offering to give him some in return if he's interested.

If we don't have enough anytime soon we can just wait for the campaign to end.
 
Getting kragg to at the snake juice would be interesting for him and us plus we could trust that he would not tell any about our secret. However if he reacted badly he would probably end us on the spot. I would say the chance of something about showing the juice to him going bad a very low.

It is one thing to read the Liber Mortis to gain insights into the use of magic it is quite anther to use dhar even with the belt. I would be fine with the first but not the second.
 
I mean we're owed favors by the dwarves so I doubt he'd kill us, probably just have us leave and make sure no dwarves ever talk to us again.
 
I'm still saying that Dwarves don't use magic and we happen to have a elf friend that knows more about magic then we could ever learn. Spending time tracking him down would have to be easier then earning replacement dwarf favors. I would be willing to show the snake juice to a dwarf if it only needed a certain amount of rep but I don't want to spend favors when we aren't willing to spend the time looking at a magic thing that is in our specialty.
 
I'm still saying that Dwarves don't use magic and we happen to have a elf friend that knows more about magic then we could ever learn. Spending time tracking him down would have to be easier then earning replacement dwarf favors. I would be willing to show the snake juice to a dwarf if it only needed a certain amount of rep but I don't want to spend favors when we aren't willing to spend the time looking at a magic thing that is in our specialty.
Um. Going by process of elimination (we know 1 elf), you appear to be talking about Asarnil.

But Asarnil is a warrior? Dragon-riding warrior prince type. We are a wizard. Like, I'm sure he knows some tricks. But 'knows more about magic than we could ever learn'... try not to buy into the elf-hype too much.
 
The Liber Mortis provides knowledge, the Qyash juice provides an opportunity.

I think we should at the very least read the book, since it's sure to provide valuable insight into magic. Information on how different winds are used seems to be enough to inspire or assist those of another wind entirely, so I doubt all we'd learn from the Liber Mortis is necromany related stuff. Techniques, differing approaches and viewpoints, etc. All of which are likely to improve Mathildes knowledge of and ability with magic.

All that might and quite probably will come in useful once we get down to experimenting with the magic liquid. I see no reason to attempt to experiment with the liquid before we've actually delved into the fount of useful knowledge that is the Liber Mortis.
 
I'm still saying that Dwarves don't use magic and we happen to have a elf friend that knows more about magic then we could ever learn. Spending time tracking him down would have to be easier then earning replacement dwarf favors. I would be willing to show the snake juice to a dwarf if it only needed a certain amount of rep but I don't want to spend favors when we aren't willing to spend the time looking at a magic thing that is in our specialty.
Dwarves do use magic, in the form of runes.

Also I'm not sure how easy tracking down some one on a dragon who wanders across the entire old world would be.
He also never seems much like a mage to me I don't think we ever saw him cast a spell, he probably knows a lot but I'm not sure if he'd know more than us.
 
I'm pretty sure it would be worth it.
Just look what he did when we asked for something vague.
We might also be able to reduce that by offering to give him some in return if he's interested.

If we don't have enough anytime soon we can just wait for the campaign to end.
He's not the guy to ask about innovation. Other dwarves think he's stuck in his ways.
Also I'm not sure how easy tracking down some one on a dragon who wanders across the entire old world would be.
People've got to hire him somehow?
 
He's not the guy to ask about innovation. Other dwarves think he's stuck in his ways.
He's also the best runesmith in the world.
At the very least he could tell us something even if he didn't want to use it himself.
Who knows the idea behind the box might impress him. (Not that he'd ever admit that.)
 
Um. Going by process of elimination (we know 1 elf), you appear to be talking about Asarnil.

But Asarnil is a warrior? Dragon-riding warrior prince type. We are a wizard. Like, I'm sure he knows some tricks. But 'knows more about magic than we could ever learn'... try not to buy into the elf-hype too much.

IIRC, all elves have the ability to perceive and cast magic. The mutation in humans that lets them learn to cast magic was built into the elves by the Old Ones. I think all elves get an education in magic, although for most it's about how not to use it.

Asarnil, however, managed to wake a dragon, something that I think requires magic. Not battle magic grade, which is why he's not a table top wizard and instead wears armour and wields weapons to fight with, but magic nonetheless, to commune with a dragon's dreaming mind (which is probably Ulgu) and to give them to spark of power to stir them towards wakefulness which is probably Aqshy).

He also has a dragon to nuke people with, which is a bit of a disincentive to bother learning the much riskier battle magic.
 
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IIRC, all elves have the ability to perceive and cast magic. The mutation in humans that lets them learn to cast magic was built into the elves by the Old Ones. I think all elves get an education in magic, although for most it's about how not to use it.

Asarnil, however, managed to wake a dragon, something that I think requires magic. Not battle magic grade, which is why he's not a table top wizard and instead wears armour and wields weapons to fight with, but magic nonetheless, to commune with a dragon's dreaming mind (which is probably Ulgu) and to give them to spark of power to stir them towards wakefulness which is probably Aqshy).

He also has a dragon to nuke people with, which is a bit of a disincentive to bother learning the much riskier battle magic.
Well that checks out. Time to go search the length and breadth of the Old World for a single mercenary, pay the kind of fees he commands (that bankrupts small kingdoms) and bring him here in the hopes that he'll help us learn how to use this juice we got.
 
Well that checks out. Time to go search the length and breadth of the Old World for a single mercenary, pay the kind of fees he commands (that bankrupts small kingdoms) and bring him here in the hopes that he'll help us learn how to use this juice we got.

He wouldn't know how to cast high magic anyway, and it's categorically impossible for Mathilde it learn how to do it.

What he could explain that's useful we could probably get from the College, such as what a Power Stone is, and what the stages of making it are (concentrate the Wind into a gas/vapour, then concentrate it further into a liquid, and then finally into a stone).

What the liquid is likely to be very useful for, in my mind, is either as a trade good to high mages for them to use as a battery, if we ever make friendly contact with the elves, or to learn how to fractionally distil it to produce pure liquid magic of the various Winds. The colleges are likely to pay an absolute fortune for that, as it's 2/3 od the way to making power stones, and can probably be used as a pretty safe emergency battery (it can't surge in strength and cause a miscast as can happen when directly tapping the Winds). The single Wind liquid is also likely to be immensely useful in enchanting, as you can soak items you want to enchant in it so that they absorb the magic. The Gold College is likely to pay a fortune for this, given how their alchemy allows them to produce cross wind effects by using Gold Magic to manipulate material that's absorbed significant amounts of another Wind.

There's also an outside chance that if Mathilde can soak bottled mists of something like ether in another Wind she can control the mists using Ulgu just as Gold Wizards control other states of matter and so produce safe cross wind effects that way.
 
Well that checks out. Time to go search the length and breadth of the Old World for a single mercenary, pay the kind of fees he commands (that bankrupts small kingdoms) and bring him here in the hopes that he'll help us learn how to use this juice we got.
I mean he does like us and ge might find the juice interesting so there is that.

Also we did have the option to travel with him as a mercenary before.
We could always ask to travel with him and study the snake juice while we do.
 
*Reeds the last few pages* My god there are people in this chat who should never be allowed to handle scissors, knives, let near electrical outlets, or water deeper then 2 feet.
 
He wouldn't know how to cast high magic anyway, and it's categorically impossible for Mathilde it learn how to do it.

What he could explain that's useful we could probably get from the College, such as what a Power Stone is, and what the stages of making it are (concentrate the Wind into a gas/vapour, then concentrate it further into a liquid, and then finally into a stone).

What the liquid is likely to be very useful for, in my mind, is either as a trade good to high mages for them to use as a battery, if we ever make friendly contact with the elves, or to learn how to fractionally distil it to produce pure liquid magic of the various Winds. The colleges are likely to pay an absolute fortune for that, as it's 2/3 od the way to making power stones, and can probably be used as a pretty safe emergency battery (it can't surge in strength and cause a miscast as can happen when directly tapping the Winds). The single Wind liquid is also likely to be immensely useful in enchanting, as you can soak items you want to enchant in it so that they absorb the magic. The Gold College is likely to pay a fortune for this, given how their alchemy allows them to produce cross wind effects by using Gold Magic to manipulate material that's absorbed significant amounts of another Wind.

There's also an outside chance that if Mathilde can soak bottled mists of something like ether in another Wind she can control the mists using Ulgu just as Gold Wizards control other states of matter and so produce safe cross wind effects that way.
I think selling it is a waste, but funds could always be useful.
There's an elven quarter in Marienberg so we could probably get in contact with them there.

In theory it's impossible for a human to learn high magic, but I think Mathilde has a better chance than most her level of understanding is very high.
Not to mention studying our Liquid Magic might help reveal things no human wizard has known before.
 
Well that checks out. Time to go search the length and breadth of the Old World for a single mercenary, pay the kind of fees he commands (that bankrupts small kingdoms) and bring him here in the hopes that he'll help us learn how to use this juice we got.

Having a conversation with an elf over the importance of a magic sample that we have on us is the exact same effort that would go into collecting Dwarf favors to do the same with a rune priest or lord. Given those factors I would rather talk to an elf even if they only knew the basics of high magic because those basics are still better then any human who isn't a Wizard Lord.

Both of those are below actually studying the thing ourselves without calling in other people but we can't do that because Magister's need to adventure and serve the empire like Journeyman rather then research in the safety of their own home.
 
The Liber Mortis provides knowledge, the Qyash juice provides an opportunity.

I think we should at the very least read the book, since it's sure to provide valuable insight into magic. Information on how different winds are used seems to be enough to inspire or assist those of another wind entirely, so I doubt all we'd learn from the Liber Mortis is necromany related stuff. Techniques, differing approaches and viewpoints, etc. All of which are likely to improve Mathildes knowledge of and ability with magic.

All that might and quite probably will come in useful once we get down to experimenting with the magic liquid. I see no reason to attempt to experiment with the liquid before we've actually delved into the fount of useful knowledge that is the Liber Mortis.
I certainly have nothing against reading the book.
 
Having a conversation with an elf over the importance of a magic sample that we have on us is the exact same effort that would go into collecting Dwarf favors to do the same with a rune priest or lord. Given those factors I would rather talk to an elf even if they only knew the basics of high magic because those basics are still better then any human who isn't a Wizard Lord.

Both options are unappealing. "Who you should ask about something resembling elven magic - knowledgeable dwarf or elven swordsman?". I would prefer to ask knowledgeable elf, thank you very much.

Both of those are below actually studying the thing ourselves without calling in other people but we can't do that because Magister's need to adventure and serve the empire like Journeyman rather then research in the safety of their own home.

I'm not sure if you are sarcastic or not, but Magisters can research in the safety of their own home and we even had the option when we were voting on post-graduation activities (running branch school or being someone's advisor would allow us to conduct research).
 
Couple of elements on the whole Dhar chat:
-Wielding raw Dhar is corrupting in the same way that wielding Ulgu is corrupting. In order to use it, you must think like Dhar. Which means embracing destruction and strife as a way of life, not unlike the Druchii, though in typical elven fashion they can do so without embracing self destruction entirely, a human doing so is more or less a Chaos Sorceror already and jumping off the slippery slope.
--Necromancy reduces this by changing the nature of the perversion. By wielding Dhar through Shyish tongs, instead of the purely destructive Dhar, interpreted through Shyish it is the refined arrogance and sundry flavors of domination that is rejecting the natural order of death and Shyish's fatalism. Necromancers of course, still pick up Dhar taint, but a constant across necromancers, even vampires, who are immune to the taint, is this arrogance to tell death to go take a hike.
---In practice, this gives them a large power boost because of how readily available Dhar is compared to every other Wind and the ability to exceed Shyish's boundaries.
---In theory, there is nothing keeping you from wielding Qhaysh through another wind safely. This wouldn't give a large power boost(because Qhaysh doesn't occur naturally, you'd probably suffer a DROP in raw power without a fuel, unless you were an elven Loremaster, in which case you don't need to do all this twisting), but it would widen your options.
----But nobody knows exactly how to do this because they lack the foundational knowledge. Nagash built his Necromancy off existing practices of wielding arcane winds through divine lores(or the reverse, I doubt anyone knows for sure except Nagash anyway). Nobody's going to try because it's a lot of work for no gain.


So, net assessment:
-Wield Dhar directly - No that's dumb, even if you don't get corrupted, it doesn't stop you from having to be a terrible person to use it.

-Wield Dhar through Shyish - This is probably going to explode because we've enough Ulgu arcane marks to make working the Shyish impossible anyway.

-Wield Dhar through Ulgu - This is going to still output Dhar into the environment, which is not really in our best interests, even after we figure out how to use it. No idea what kind of personality changes.

-Wield Qhaysh through Ulgu - This would normally be impossible because the process of experimenting would generate Dhar(which we've solved via the belt), we wouldn't have a significant supply of Qhaysh to begin with(which we MAY have solved via snake juice) and we wouldn't begin to know how to wield a Wind with another Wind(which we've a start via the Book). There's still whatever mental twisting needed to do so, but we won't know what until we try.

Now for less maddening debate: What DOES wielding Qhaysh through another wind do?
Shyish is Death. Dhar-Through-Shyish is the violation of death, using two destructive forces to cancel out(destroying death, etc) and approach eternity. Qhaysh-Through-Shyish is unknown, maybe rebirth, as continuance after death.

Ulgu is Shadow. Dhar-Through-Ulgu is unknown. Qhaysh-Through-Ulgu is unknown.
 
well if Necro is violating dead

then this would be violating shadow, something immaterial

so, creating thing wholesale instead of fake illusion ?

Shadow Construct or something like that
Building on this line of thought, Ulgu is shadows, mist, illusions, confusion, boundaries, truth, and sometimes dark and stormy nights.

So, light, but not light, clear air, but not clear, true images, but uninformative, things that enlighten, but you really wish they hadn't, a breaking down of intellectual boundaries and the definitions of truth and such, and sometimes clear, bright nights that aren't really clear or nights at all.


:thonk:
 
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light, but not light
Visible light, basically hard light construct right there or maybe UV light

clear air, but not clear
poison air, it clear, you can't see anything but it not clear
true images, but uninformative
solid illusion
things that enlighten, but you really wish they hadn't
Cthulu San Point Attack, enlightened you into insanity

a breaking down of intellectual boundaries and the definitions of truth and such
kinda sound like Schrodinger Paradox shit right here, yes or no, both answer is correct

it sound pretty scary actually
sometimes clear, bright nights that aren't really clear or nights at all.
so, an Esclipse, it night yet not night that is bright
 
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